As I get closer to the date of the Great Bathroom Refit, I can bash
holes in things to find out what's inside without having to live with
the resulting mess for too long. I've just done exactly that with the
boxed-in soil stack:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

My new layout will require the toilet waste to enter from a direction at
90º to the current one; more or less from where the picture was taken.

Do you think I'm likely to be able to simply swivel the branch on the
pipe, without having to break into the stack at all? Would make life a
hell of a lot easier if I could...

If not, I'm presumably going to have to pull everything upwards to
disassemble it. This is the highest fitting on the stack; it then goes
through the loft and out the roof. However, I'm worried that if I lift
it I'll break some sort of seal at roof level and cause a leak. This is
an early 90s house; is there a typical fitting that's used? (and does it
slide?)

Finally, when I bashed the hole in the side of the boxed in pipe, I
found it stuffed with fibreglass loft insulation. It doesn't serve any
immediately obvious purpose; is this normal and should I be aiming to
replace it when I rebuild?

Cheers,

Pete

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Pete Verdon d wrote:

As I get closer to the date of the Great Bathroom Refit, I can bash
holes in things to find out what's inside without having to live with
the resulting mess for too long. I've just done exactly that with the
boxed-in soil stack:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

My new layout will require the toilet waste to enter from a direction
at 90º to the current one; more or less from where the picture was
taken.
Do you think I'm likely to be able to simply swivel the branch on the
pipe, without having to break into the stack at all? Would make life a
hell of a lot easier if I could...


Provided the fittings are of the push-fit type and not solvent welded (do
they make 110mm solvent weld fittings?) you should be able to turn it
through 90 degrees without dismantling - I did something similar a few
months ago. After removing the toilet, if you push a metre (or so) of scrap
pipe into the socket, you'll get plenty of leverage. You will, however, have
to make sure that the whole stack doesn't rotate - which could damage other
connections or cause a leak where it passes through the roof. I held my
stack with a strap (not chain) wrench, intended for undoing car oil filters.
It's a lot easier if you have one or two helpers.


Finally, when I bashed the hole in the side of the boxed in pipe, I
found it stuffed with fibreglass loft insulation. It doesn't serve any
immediately obvious purpose; is this normal and should I be aiming to
replace it when I rebuild?

It's there for sound insulation - so that the whole household doesn't hear
your turds being flushed away. Put it back!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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"Pete Verdon" d wrote in
message ...
As I get closer to the date of the Great Bathroom Refit, I can bash holes
in things to find out what's inside without having to live with the
resulting mess for too long. I've just done exactly that with the boxed-in
soil stack:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

My new layout will require the toilet waste to enter from a direction at
90º to the current one; more or less from where the picture was taken.

Do you think I'm likely to be able to simply swivel the branch on the
pipe, without having to break into the stack at all? Would make life a
hell of a lot easier if I could...

It looks like solvent weld pipe. If so, the answer is no.

If not, I'm presumably going to have to pull everything upwards to
disassemble it. This is the highest fitting on the stack; it then goes
through the loft and out the roof.

That won't work with solvent weld either. You need to cut the pipe below the
branch, fit a new section of pipe and fit your branch to that. You may be
able to reuse the pipe above, by cutting it immediately above the branch and
dropping it into the top of the new one. I would revise the bathroom layout.

Colin Bignell

Owain wrote:

Could you cut and rejoin the pipe in the loft?

I can't easily get at that bit of loft - I can see it, but it's down a
narrow triangle of pitched roof and isn't boarded. I wouldn't want to be
dismantling pipes and so on in there. However, I will be taking out the
whole boxing-in, so I can get at the pipe above the floor-level branch
in question in the bathroom itself.

Finally, when I bashed the hole in the side of the boxed in pipe, I
found it stuffed with fibreglass loft insulation.

It's there to reduce the noise of your turds going down the pipe.

But my turds don't go down that bit of pipe, unless I crap on the roof -
the part the fibreglass is round is above the toilet branch. The
matching boxing-in in the kitchen below (where that might makes sense)
doesn't appear to contain fibreglass, at least not below unit level
where I made another inspection hole. Even if some kind of noise did
travel up the pipe, it's in the bathroom where the toilet itself is
probably going to be noisier. There's no toilet on this stack on the
ground floor.

Still, seems like a reasonable explanation, if misapplied in this
particular case.

Pete

nightjar cpb@ wrote:
"Pete Verdon" d wrote

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

It looks like solvent weld pipe. If so, the answer is no.

I wasn't really aware that solvent-weld soil pipe existed, however
having looked at eg
http://www.floplast.co.uk/pages.asp?...5341&catid=282 I have to
agree with you. Arse.

You need to cut the pipe below the
branch, fit a new section of pipe and fit your branch to that.

How would you suggest fitting to the cut end of the existing pipe? I'm
looking at page 130 of the BES catalogue and don't see anything
suitable. All the soil stuff I've see before has been based on socketed
pipe with the socket at the top end for things to fit neatly into.

I guess one could fit part number 13000 (short boss pipe,
http://www.bes.co.uk/products/130a.asp ) to the cut-off top of the
existing pipe. In fact, that could plausibly be in a location where I
was planning to fit a strap-on boss anyway. But the top of it is then
female solvent-weld, which doesn't necessarily get me where I need to
be. Can the branches etc meant for ring-seal have their plain ends
solvent-welded into something like that?

How about this item from Wickes:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Single-Socke...or/invt/431967 ?
Looks like it solvent-welds inside (based on the ridge halfway along)
plain pipe and from then on we're back to ring seals. That below and a
ring-seal slip coupling above?

You may be able to reuse the pipe above, by cutting it immediately above
the branch and dropping it into the top of the new one.

I pretty much have to reuse the pipe above, as I can't get onto the roof
to fit a new one. My plan is to clamp it rigidly in place above the area
of operations and use a slip coupling to join back onto it when
everything else is done.

I would revise the bathroom layout.

Not really an option, given the shape. The current shower is small and,
due to being at the end of a long, horizontal, probably sludged-up waste
pipe, needs plungering most mornings to avoid overflowing the tray. The
new shower plan fixes all that (right next to the stack, plenty of room)
but to do so requires moving the toilet.

Pete

"Pete Verdon" d wrote in
message ...
As I get closer to the date of the Great Bathroom Refit, I can bash
holes in things to find out what's inside without having to live with
the resulting mess for too long. I've just done exactly that with the
boxed-in soil stack:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

My new layout will require the toilet waste to enter from a direction at
90º to the current one; more or less from where the picture was taken.

Do you think I'm likely to be able to simply swivel the branch on the
pipe, without having to break into the stack at all? Would make life a
hell of a lot easier if I could...


Yes you can, BUT, with a little care and attention. Run some diluted
washing-up liquid around the spigot seams where the "T" meets both stack
pipes, and leave it to seep in for a half hour or so before trying to move
anything. This helps to lubricate the rubber rings inside the spigot
joints, which may be a little dry and fragile after years of being in the
same position. Don't want you to end up with a space shuttle disaster when
you flush the loo for the first time.

The other thing I'd like to point out, is that the "T" looks to have two
optional boss inlets on the sides. In the pictures you have given us, the
stack and "T" are close to the wall on the side away from the main branch of
the "T" (let's say the back of the tee). When you swivel the "T" around to
the new position, the boss inlet may force the pipework away from the wall.
This may need trimmed down with a hacksaw to make it shorter and not force
the "T" away from the wall.

That's how it looks in the pictures, anyway, but I might be wrong because of
the angle the shots where taking from. Something to be aware of, maybe.



If not, I'm presumably going to have to pull everything upwards to
disassemble it. This is the highest fitting on the stack; it then goes
through the loft and out the roof. However, I'm worried that if I lift
it I'll break some sort of seal at roof level and cause a leak. This is
an early 90s house; is there a typical fitting that's used? (and does it
slide?)


The "T" should swivel around without problems, with a good bit of pressure
on the existing pipe to the loo. Use the existing loo pipe as a lever to
pull the "T" around. If you can, that is. If you can't use the existing
pipe as a lever, then put a brush pole, or the like, in the branch and use
that to put a constant pressure on the "T" until it moves.

Don't hit anything with a hammer. It's all plastic, and will break very
easily. Use a constant pressure, with the helps of long levers if you can,
until the adhesion of the rubber rings breaks. Once the "T" starts to move,
it should slide around with a lot more ease. It's the initial "Getting it
started" that can be the bitch. The rubber rings inside can, and do, adhere
tightly to the walls of the plastic, so can need a good pull to make them
break their hold. They've been in that one position for a long while,
remember.



Finally, when I bashed the hole in the side of the boxed in pipe, I
found it stuffed with fibreglass loft insulation. It doesn't serve any
immediately obvious purpose; is this normal and should I be aiming to
replace it when I rebuild?

Cheers,

Pete


It's like everything else in a house, Pete. The fiberglass is there for a
purpose. It's a bathroom, so needs to be kept warm, especially in winter,
so the insulation helps in that. Also, it acts as a sound deafening system,
to stop you hearing wind and water as they howl through the pipe as it's
used and weathered. It may also be acting as a part fire break between
floors and the loft. Leaving a gaping hole right through the house is a
great way of allow smoke and fire to easily penetrate by the same route.

Make sure you have something to stop up the gaps around the pipework again,
as tightly as you can, to stop smoke and flames from easily breaking through
to other floors. And also make sure you have some sort of sound barrier in
any pipe boxing, to stop you hearing the howls of the wind on stormy nights,
and your solid waste banging its way down to the sewer system.

You do also need insulation inside pipe boxing. The waste water system may
seem to be dry most of its life, but it actually has water lying in traps
every so often along its length. Insulation doesn't just help prevent heat
loss, but does actually help retain the heat in the pipework itself.
Freezing in the pipework and you have to call out the plumbers because your
sewer pipe has collapsed, because the trap got iced by the wind blowing down
from the roof vent, and you removed the insulation that helped the pipe
retain heat and stop that happening. The fiberglass insulation is there for
a lot of reasons. HONESTLY, it is !!!

Good luck with it, and have fun. Some pictures of the finished product are
always welcome in the group. They help keep our spirit up. :-)

"Pete Verdon" d wrote in
message ...
nightjar cpb@ wrote:
"Pete Verdon" d wrote

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3581.JPG
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/DSCN3582.JPG

It looks like solvent weld pipe. If so, the answer is no.

I wasn't really aware that solvent-weld soil pipe existed, however having
looked at eg
http://www.floplast.co.uk/pages.asp?...5341&catid=282 I have to
agree with you. Arse.

If anything, solvent weld is more common in the larger sizes, by which I
mean up to 12 inch bore. It is cheaper and, if done properly, more reliable.

You need to cut the pipe below the branch, fit a new section of pipe and
fit your branch to that.

How would you suggest fitting to the cut end of the existing pipe? I'm
looking at page 130 of the BES catalogue and don't see anything suitable.
All the soil stuff I've see before has been based on socketed pipe with
the socket at the top end for things to fit neatly into.

I would probably go for cuitting well clear, fitting a double socket, then a
piece of plain pipe and putting whetever fittings I want on the top end of
that.

I guess one could fit part number 13000 (short boss pipe,
http://www.bes.co.uk/products/130a.asp ) to the cut-off top of the
existing pipe. In fact, that could plausibly be in a location where I was
planning to fit a strap-on boss anyway. But the top of it is then female
solvent-weld, which doesn't necessarily get me where I need to be. Can the
branches etc meant for ring-seal have their plain ends solvent-welded into
something like that?

Provided they are the right material to solvent weld, it should make a
better job of it.

How about this item from Wickes:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Single-Socke...or/invt/431967 ?
Looks like it solvent-welds inside (based on the ridge halfway along)
plain pipe and from then on we're back to ring seals. That below and a
ring-seal slip coupling above?

From the description, that looks like a solvent weld to push-fit adaptor,
but I could be wrong.

I normally buy my fittings from these people. They are knowledgable and
usually very helpful, so a phone call wouldn't hurt.

http://www.linwall.co.uk/

Colin Bignell

nightjar cpb@insert my surname here wibbled:


"Pete Verdon" d wrote in

How about this item from Wickes:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/Single-Socke...or/invt/431967 ?
Looks like it solvent-welds inside (based on the ridge halfway along)
plain pipe and from then on we're back to ring seals. That below and a
ring-seal slip coupling above?

From the description, that looks like a solvent weld to push-fit adaptor,
but I could be wrong.

Yes it is. I've used some of those (not the Wickes one, from somewhere else)
to "top off" a soil pipe emerging from the floor so that the solvent bit is
under the floor and the push fit bit is more of less level with the floor
surface.

Cheers

Tim