On Jun 23, 7:59*pm, "neverwas" wrote:
Ok, just went home for lunch hour and tested this out. Whether or not
the tap in our side passage is opened first or second, it is the tap
which is allocated the pressure. So, if I run the kitchen tap full
whack then nip outside and open the side passage tap to full, it comes
on at full pressure while the kitchen tap will trickle. And
interestingly, a load of dirt comes out of the side passage tap at the
high pressure in addition to the kitchen tap's dirt content with the
trickle flow.

I hope I'm making sense, I'm finding this tough to explain...

Just down from the ladder:

o * *makes sense so far;
o * *I'd rather assumed you got a greater flow with both taps open 'cos
they both gushed. *From what you say now, I assume the side passage tap
gives a much greater flow than the kitchen tap can - * eg the passage
tap fills a bucket significantly faster than the kitchen tap. *That's
the only way I can see that opening the 2 taps together can give you a
greater total flow and so flush debris from the company's pipe.

--
R

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway, but
its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side passage tap
when both are opened. In the case of the washing machine using water,
the pressure does not diminish quite as much at the kitchen tap, so
the demand at the WM must be less. The detergent/softener compartment
in the WM frequently gets stained and grubby, presumably due to the
crap that is coming in....

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway, but
its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side passage tap
when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path of
least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the passage
tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you have from a
single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon bucket in 30s
with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the supply
pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow). IMHO it
is DG2 that you should have or better.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Jun 23, 10:15*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:
The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway, but
its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side passage tap
when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path of
least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the passage
tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you have from a
single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon bucket in 30s
with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the supply
pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow). IMHO it
is DG2 that you should have or better.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I live in Ireland, so those regs don't apply to my situation. But it
seems increasingly likely to me that this sediment is being carried
through my supply pipe from the watermain on the road. The supply on
my street is pressurised from both sides, and we are on the low end of
a sloping street, which I am told could lead to a buildup of gunk over
time from the corroding cast iron mains in the area. The pressure
seems to be low enough in the area to lead to such a condition.

There was a definite improvement in water clarity and colour when I
asked the local council to flush the mains two years ago, but it
didn't last. I suspect we would not have this issue if the mains were
internally relined with plastic interiors, or if it flowed in only one
direction. Anyway, I could be wrong, and the problem could be mostly
on my side, but it would have to be a really obscure issue at this
point. I will have to have an experienced plumber have a look.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway, but
its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side passage tap
when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path of
least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the passage
tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you have from a
single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon bucket in 30s
with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the supply
pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow). IMHO it
is DG2 that you should have or better.

Hi Dave,
we have been through a cycle of questions in the past that have not given a
permanent solution.

None,
I really do think that you are on a balance point in the distribution system
that causes your problems. Also, did we resolve whether the distribution
system is cast iron, (oh, forget that, I've just read your answer to Dave).
I can recall that there were v low chlorine levels that can be a symptom of
being on a balance point which can result not only in increased iron release
in CI systems but microbial growth.

Your response to Dave just reinforces the view that I offered previously.

Is Stillorgan covered yet? I've not tried Googling whether it has been. This
is important in that if it is not then additional food can be added to the
system.

On Jun 24, 12:43*am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway, but
its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side passage tap
when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path of
least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the passage
tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you have from a
single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon bucket in 30s
with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the supply
pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow). IMHO it
is DG2 that you should have or better.

Hi Dave,
we have been through a cycle of questions in the past that have not given a
permanent solution.

None,
I really do think that you are on a balance point in the distribution system
that causes your problems. Also, did we resolve whether the distribution
system is cast iron, (oh, forget that, I've just read your answer to Dave).
I can recall that there were v low chlorine levels that can be a symptom of
being on a balance point which can result not only in increased iron release
in CI systems but microbial growth.

Your response to Dave just reinforces the view that I offered previously.

Is Stillorgan covered yet? I've not tried Googling whether it has been. This
is important in that if it is not then additional food can be added to the
system.

I have no idea if Stillorgan's reservoir has been covered, but we're
not serviced from there, rather a large reservoir in Wicklow called
Vartry. Apparently this supply does not utilise the more modern
filtration processes, it is merely sand filtered and chlorinated and
that's it. I was told this leads to the natural colour in the water
and so forth, but even that dissipated when the council flushed out
our watermain.

What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one tap
is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is not
opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though, you will
probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me off drinking
it (I'm just so used to it by now).

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:05:56 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

I live in Ireland, so those regs don't apply to my situation.

Presumably Ireland has similar regulations on water supplies?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 24 June, 07:46, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:05:56 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:
I live in Ireland, so those regs don't apply to my situation.

Presumably Ireland has similar regulations on water supplies?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Well I was told that as long as the water test passed regs for
coliforms etc, then I had no comeback on the matter. If the side
passage tap/washing machine ran while the person took a sample of the
kitchen sink and it came back dodgy, they would say that it was a
plumbing issue on my side.

Having run the SP tap last night by itself into a glass, I found a lot
of gunk in there. So this is another curveball; the problem could be
linked to this tap and how it has been plumbed in.

None wrote:
If you pour yourself a glass of water from the kitchen tap during this
time, it will be filled with brown particle debris. The same thing
happens if you pour a glass of water from the kitchen tap while the
shed washing machine is running. The bottom of the attic tank is
covered in this debris.

Someone at work related a funny story about similar bits in her water
supply, except they were green ...

Turned out to be ladybird eggs, their loft had a major infestation of
the critters ...

--
Adrian C

On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:40:15 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

I live in Ireland, so those regs don't apply to my situation.

Presumably Ireland has similar regulations on water supplies?

Well I was told that as long as the water test passed regs for
coliforms etc, then I had no comeback on the matter.

Thast the quality side. There are regs in the UK that determine
minimums for flow and pressure. Your quoted 1.5bar is close the UK
minimum pressure.

--
Cheers
Dave.

None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway,
but its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side
passage tap when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path
of least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the
passage tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you
have from a single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon
bucket in 30s with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the
supply pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow).
IMHO it is DG2 that you should have or better.

Hi Dave,
we have been through a cycle of questions in the past that have not
given a permanent solution.

None,
I really do think that you are on a balance point in the
distribution system that causes your problems. Also, did we resolve
whether the distribution system is cast iron, (oh, forget that, I've
just read your answer to Dave). I can recall that there were v low
chlorine levels that can be a symptom of being on a balance point
which can result not only in increased iron release in CI systems
but microbial growth.

Your response to Dave just reinforces the view that I offered
previously.

Is Stillorgan covered yet? I've not tried Googling whether it has
been. This is important in that if it is not then additional food
can be added to the system.

I have no idea if Stillorgan's reservoir has been covered, but we're
not serviced from there, rather a large reservoir in Wicklow called
Vartry. Apparently this supply does not utilise the more modern
filtration processes, it is merely sand filtered and chlorinated and
that's it. I was told this leads to the natural colour in the water
and so forth, but even that dissipated when the council flushed out
our watermain.

Vartry is the raw water resrvoir(s) that feeds the waterworks. From
recollection, this has accelerators, sedimentation tanks and filter beds and
chlorination. When I visited (early 1990s), the plant was what I would deem
at that time to be a conventional plant. The aspect that surprised and
concerned me was that the water is then directed to Stillorgan Service
Reservoir (which was still not covered a couple of years ago), although
there were plans in place to do so.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...r#encyclopedia

Whilst this can allow the ingress of "food" as I termed it, any significant
failure of the Service Reservoir would have major repercussions for most of
greater Dublin.



What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one tap
is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is not
opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though, you will
probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me off drinking
it (I'm just so used to it by now).

What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your service
pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible (likely) that the
demand being imposed on the supply is less than when you have two taps full
open because the taps themselves are the restriction to the flow from the
main. Having two taps full open then draws sediment from the main.

You mentioned that having the Water Dept. flush the main a couple of years
ago improved the situation dramatically. This suggests that the problem is
in the distribution system rather than just your service pipe.

Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast Iron
(CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/ replace the
main? Do you ever have problems with rust stains from clothes in the washing
machine?

Clot wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway,
but its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side
passage tap when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path
of least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the
passage tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you
have from a single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon
bucket in 30s with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the
supply pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow).
IMHO it is DG2 that you should have or better.

Hi Dave,
we have been through a cycle of questions in the past that have not
given a permanent solution.

None,
I really do think that you are on a balance point in the
distribution system that causes your problems. Also, did we resolve
whether the distribution system is cast iron, (oh, forget that, I've
just read your answer to Dave). I can recall that there were v low
chlorine levels that can be a symptom of being on a balance point
which can result not only in increased iron release in CI systems
but microbial growth.

Your response to Dave just reinforces the view that I offered
previously.

Is Stillorgan covered yet? I've not tried Googling whether it has
been. This is important in that if it is not then additional food
can be added to the system.

I have no idea if Stillorgan's reservoir has been covered, but we're
not serviced from there, rather a large reservoir in Wicklow called
Vartry. Apparently this supply does not utilise the more modern
filtration processes, it is merely sand filtered and chlorinated and
that's it. I was told this leads to the natural colour in the water
and so forth, but even that dissipated when the council flushed out
our watermain.

Vartry is the raw water resrvoir(s) that feeds the waterworks. From
recollection, this has accelerators, sedimentation tanks and filter
beds and chlorination. When I visited (early 1990s), the plant was
what I would deem at that time to be a conventional plant. The aspect
that surprised and concerned me was that the water is then directed
to Stillorgan Service Reservoir (which was still not covered a couple
of years ago), although there were plans in place to do so.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...r#encyclopedia

Whilst this can allow the ingress of "food" as I termed it, any
significant failure of the Service Reservoir would have major
repercussions for most of greater Dublin.



What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one
tap is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is
not opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though,
you will probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me
off drinking it (I'm just so used to it by now).

What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your
service pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible
(likely) that the demand being imposed on the supply is less than
when you have two taps full open because the taps themselves are the
restriction to the flow from the main. Having two taps full open then
draws sediment from the main.
You mentioned that having the Water Dept. flush the main a couple of
years ago improved the situation dramatically. This suggests that the
problem is in the distribution system rather than just your service
pipe.
Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast
Iron (CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/
replace the main? Do you ever have problems with rust stains from
clothes in the washing machine?

Sorry, I did not express myself well there at the last paragraph. Is most of
the mains system in your locality still CI without lining?.

On 24 June, 22:48, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

The pressure around here wouldn't exceed 1.5 bar I think anyway,
but its strange that all the flow ends up going to the side
passage tap when both are opened.

1.5 bar is close to the legal minimum and water will take the path
of least resistance which includes not going up hill. IIRC the
passage tap is lower than the kitchen one. What flow rate do you
have from a single tap full on? You should be able to fill a gallon
bucket in 30s with the pressure above 1
bar.

http://www.ofwat.gov.uk/consumerissu...ities/waterpre
ssure/prs_faq03_pressstandards

I'm not sure how they square the minimum 7m static head in the
supply pipe with the requiremnts of DG2 (10m head at 9l/min flow).
IMHO it is DG2 that you should have or better.

Hi Dave,
we have been through a cycle of questions in the past that have not
given a permanent solution.

None,
I really do think that you are on a balance point in the
distribution system that causes your problems. Also, did we resolve
whether the distribution system is cast iron, (oh, forget that, I've
just read your answer to Dave). I can recall that there were v low
chlorine levels that can be a symptom of being on a balance point
which can result not only in increased iron release in CI systems
but microbial growth.

Your response to Dave just reinforces the view that I offered
previously.

Is Stillorgan covered yet? I've not tried Googling whether it has
been. This is important in that if it is not then additional food
can be added to the system.

I have no idea if Stillorgan's reservoir has been covered, but we're
not serviced from there, rather a large reservoir in Wicklow called
Vartry. Apparently this supply does not utilise the more modern
filtration processes, it is merely sand filtered and chlorinated and
that's it. I was told this leads to the natural colour in the water
and so forth, but even that dissipated when the council flushed out
our watermain.

Vartry is the raw water resrvoir(s) that feeds the waterworks. From
recollection, this has accelerators, sedimentation tanks and filter beds and
chlorination. When I visited (early 1990s), the plant was what I would deem
at that time to be a conventional plant. The aspect that surprised and
concerned me was that the water is then directed to Stillorgan Service
Reservoir (which was still not covered a couple of years ago), although
there were plans in place to do so.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...r#encyclopedia

Whilst this can allow the ingress of "food" as I termed it, any significant
failure of the Service Reservoir would have major repercussions for most of
greater Dublin.



What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one tap
is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is not
opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though, you will
probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me off drinking
it (I'm just so used to it by now).






Interesting about Vartry. Here is a link to how we are zoned in my
area of the county: http://www.dlrcoco.ie/env/Updated/watertest.htm

I live in 'Watsons' in Zone 6, fed direct from Vartry in Roundwood
(via a small plant several miles down the road, the name escapes me
right now). Zone 1 is serviced from the Stillorgan reservoir, and
incorporates treated water from both Roundwood and Ballymore Eustace.
I have an apartment in the Dun Laoghaire area which is most likely
serviced from here. The water is completely fine there, though not
bereft of colour. No sediment however.


What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your service
pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible (likely) that the
demand being imposed on the supply is less than when you have two taps full
open because the taps themselves are the restriction to the flow from the
main. Having two taps full open then draws sediment from the main.

By restricting the flow, I can only think of the pavement stopcock,
maybe I should close it a bit as it might be unsuitably pressurised
relative to what it should be? That seems silly though. When the side
passage tap is on at full, a lot of sediment shows up. Whereas if the
kitchen tap is on full, you'll only see a couple of tiny particles in
a glass. To respond to Dave's last post, the pressure seems about the
same as most other suburban dwellings I have seen in Dublin, some I
have seen have lower pressure. I was in London the other week and
noticed the pressure in the house I was staying was probably equal or
less than what I have here.

You mentioned that having the Water Dept. flush the main a couple of years
ago improved the situation dramatically. This suggests that the problem is
in the distribution system rather than just your service pipe.

Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast Iron
(CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/ replace the
main? Do you ever have problems with rust stains from clothes in the washing
machine?

That is the other thing of course, the water was ever so noticeably
improved on that occasion. Then we had them do it a couple more times
in the weeks after, and the effect wasn't anywhere as good. They must
have done it to a lesser degree, or even botched it up. The head
engineer at the CC told me to wait a few months and 'let it setttle'
which I agreed to, and if it did not improve, to get in touch again.
I've not called for 18 months, as I really need some sort of proof
that the problem is on their side, and my neighbours are not much help
as they say they think the water is 'fine'. Proof is proving
difficult.

The main is definitely CI, and there are no plans to reline it. Though
there is a big undertaking elsewhere in the city, with a lot of the
larger and older mains supplying bigger roads being relined/replaced:
http://www.watermainsrehab.com/index...ats-being-done

That site tells you progress to date etc.

Thast the quality side. There are regs in the UK that determine
minimums for flow and pressure. Your quoted 1.5bar is close the UK
minimum pressure.

I did not know about minimum flow rate. Can you give me a pointer to it
please?

As for pressure, I think "close" is a matter of judgment. As you
pointed out earlier, the suppliers aim not to let the pressure drop
below 1.0 but the statutory minimum is 0.7 bar. And that's in the
"communication pipe" not at the customer's tap(s). In this bit of
London we've not had 1.5 bar for a long time now.

--
R

None wrote:
On 24 June, 22:48, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:


a snip

What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one
tap is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is
not opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though,
you will probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me
off drinking it (I'm just so used to it by now).


Interesting about Vartry. Here is a link to how we are zoned in my
area of the county: http://www.dlrcoco.ie/env/Updated/watertest.htm

I live in 'Watsons' in Zone 6, fed direct from Vartry in Roundwood
(via a small plant several miles down the road, the name escapes me
right now).

Do you mean a service reservoir - you probably do. This would be an
opportunity for the chlorine level to be boosted.

Zone 1 is serviced from the Stillorgan reservoir, and
incorporates treated water from both Roundwood and Ballymore Eustace.
I have an apartment in the Dun Laoghaire area which is most likely
serviced from here. The water is completely fine there, though not
bereft of colour. No sediment however.


Interesting. I note that Zone 6 seems to be the zone suffering from the
greatest number of total coliform failures during the summer. This is
indicative of low chlorine residuals that can allow microbial growth in the
system.

What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your
service pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible
(likely) that the demand being imposed on the supply is less than
when you have two taps full open because the taps themselves are the
restriction to the flow from the main. Having two taps full open
then draws sediment from the main.

By restricting the flow, I can only think of the pavement stopcock,
maybe I should close it a bit as it might be unsuitably pressurised
relative to what it should be? That seems silly though.

It would reduce the flowrate from the main into your house, though this in
itself might be unsatisfactory!

When the side
passage tap is on at full, a lot of sediment shows up. Whereas if the
kitchen tap is on full, you'll only see a couple of tiny particles in
a glass

Whilst you open up either tap to full flow, the flow through the side
passage tap could be greater than in the kitchen resulting in greater
residue being disturbed.

Another snip..


Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast
Iron (CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/
replace the main?

from your second link, I note that there are plans in place for some
relining of CI pipes. Any pipes along the system which are to be improved
(if they deliver water to you) will improve the chlorine residual and reduce
the extent of microbial growth. When I was involved in distribution systems
in the UK many years ago, unlined CI pipes were the source of most
complaints from consumers and we had a programme in place to reline which
was bringing better quality to consumers.

Do you ever have problems with rust stains from
clothes in the washing machine?

Does this happen? In the UK, any such damage to clothing had to be
compensated by the supplier. Another incentive to reline!

A snip

The main is definitely CI, and there are no plans to reline it. Though
there is a big undertaking elsewhere in the city, with a lot of the
larger and older mains supplying bigger roads being relined/replaced:
http://www.watermainsrehab.com/index...ats-being-done

This is logical. Generally, it gives the greatest result for the money
spent. Also, some of the smaller mains might not need relining as a result.

On Jun 25, 11:46*am, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On 24 June, 22:48, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

a snip

What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH particle
debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains. If only one
tap is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there if the tap is
not opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened fully though,
you will probably see a few specks, but nothing that would put me
off drinking it (I'm just so used to it by now).

Interesting about Vartry. Here is a link to how we are zoned in my
area of the county:http://www.dlrcoco.ie/env/Updated/watertest.htm

I live in 'Watsons' in Zone 6, fed direct from Vartry in Roundwood
(via a small plant several miles down the road, the name escapes me
right now).

Do you mean a service reservoir - you probably do. This would be an
opportunity for the chlorine level to be boosted.

*Zone 1 is serviced from the Stillorgan reservoir, and

incorporates treated water from both Roundwood and Ballymore Eustace.
I have an apartment in the Dun Laoghaire area which is most likely
serviced from here. The water is completely fine there, though not
bereft of colour. No sediment however.

Interesting. I note that Zone 6 seems to be the zone suffering from the
greatest number of total coliform failures during the summer. This is
indicative of low chlorine residuals that can allow microbial growth in the
system.



What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your
service pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible
(likely) that the demand being imposed on the supply is less than
when you have two taps full open because the taps themselves are the
restriction to the flow from the main. Having two taps full open
then draws sediment from the main.

By restricting the flow, I can only think of the pavement stopcock,
maybe I should close it a bit as it might be unsuitably pressurised
relative to what it should be? That seems silly though.

It would reduce the flowrate from the main into your house, though this in
itself might be unsatisfactory!

*When the side

passage tap is on at full, a lot of sediment shows up. Whereas if the
kitchen tap is on full, you'll only see a couple of tiny particles in
a glass

Whilst you open up either tap to full flow, the flow through the side
passage tap could be greater than in the kitchen resulting in greater
residue being disturbed.

Another snip..



Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast
Iron (CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/
replace the main?

from your second link, I note that there are plans in place for some
relining of CI pipes. Any pipes along the system which are to be improved
(if they deliver water to you) will improve the chlorine residual and reduce
the extent of microbial growth. When I was involved in distribution systems
in the UK many years ago, unlined CI pipes were the source of most
complaints from consumers and we had a programme in place to reline which
was bringing better quality to consumers.

*Do you ever have problems with rust stains from

clothes in the washing machine?

Does this happen? In the UK, any such damage to clothing had to be
compensated by the supplier. Another incentive to reline!



A snip





I think you're correct about the chlorine boosting faculty for the
service reservoir. Though we have basically none left by the time it
gets to us! This doesn't really bother me anymore though, in my other
place the chlorine might be slightly higher, but there's probably not
much difference.



We don't have rust stains on our clothes ever, no. The iron content in
the water is low, but the problem seems to be one of iron bacteria
(dark brown) from the CI mains pipe walls themselves which makes our
water a bit slimy and leaves clumps in the toilet cistern, dirties the
washing machine drawer, and deposits on the bottom of our attic tank.
You can always see some colour in the water when it is filled up in a
basin for instance as yellow. Yet our clothes come out pretty well,
though all our towels can get that sour smell very quickly.

The main is definitely CI, and there are no plans to reline it. Though
there is a big undertaking elsewhere in the city, with a lot of the
larger and older mains supplying bigger roads being relined/replaced:
http://www.watermainsrehab.com/index...ats-being-done

This is logical. Generally, it gives the greatest result for the money
spent. Also, some of the smaller mains might not need relining as a result.

On Jun 25, 1:56*pm, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 25, 11:46 am, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On 24 June, 22:48, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

a snip

What I just don't understand though is why there is SO MUCH
particle debris when two or more taps are opened off the mains.
If only one tap is opened, like I said, you see nothing in there
if the tap is not opened to the maximum. If the one tap is opened
fully though, you will probably see a few specks, but nothing
that would put me off drinking it (I'm just so used to it by now).

Interesting about Vartry. Here is a link to how we are zoned in my
area of the county:http://www.dlrcoco.ie/env/Updated/watertest.htm

I live in 'Watsons' in Zone 6, fed direct from Vartry in Roundwood
(via a small plant several miles down the road, the name escapes me
right now).

Do you mean a service reservoir - you probably do. This would be an
opportunity for the chlorine level to be boosted.

Zone 1 is serviced from the Stillorgan reservoir, and

incorporates treated water from both Roundwood and Ballymore
Eustace. I have an apartment in the Dun Laoghaire area which is
most likely serviced from here. The water is completely fine there,
though not bereft of colour. No sediment however.

Interesting. I note that Zone 6 seems to be the zone suffering from
the greatest number of total coliform failures during the summer.
This is indicative of low chlorine residuals that can allow
microbial growth in the system.

What is restricting the flow from the main in the street and your
service pipe? When you have just one tap full open, it is possible
(likely) that the demand being imposed on the supply is less than
when you have two taps full open because the taps themselves are
the restriction to the flow from the main. Having two taps full
open then draws sediment from the main.

By restricting the flow, I can only think of the pavement stopcock,
maybe I should close it a bit as it might be unsuitably pressurised
relative to what it should be? That seems silly though.

It would reduce the flowrate from the main into your house, though
this in itself might be unsatisfactory!

When the side

passage tap is on at full, a lot of sediment shows up. Whereas if
the kitchen tap is on full, you'll only see a couple of tiny
particles in a glass

Whilst you open up either tap to full flow, the flow through the side
passage tap could be greater than in the kitchen resulting in greater
residue being disturbed.

Another snip..

Do I recall correctly that the main (which is fed two ways) is Cast
Iron (CI)? Does the Water Dept. have any long term plans to reline/
replace the main?

from your second link, I note that there are plans in place for some
relining of CI pipes. Any pipes along the system which are to be
improved (if they deliver water to you) will improve the chlorine
residual and reduce the extent of microbial growth. When I was
involved in distribution systems in the UK many years ago, unlined
CI pipes were the source of most complaints from consumers and we
had a programme in place to reline which was bringing better quality
to consumers.

Do you ever have problems with rust stains from

clothes in the washing machine?

Does this happen? In the UK, any such damage to clothing had to be
compensated by the supplier. Another incentive to reline!

A snip

I think you're correct about the chlorine boosting faculty for the
service reservoir. Though we have basically none left by the time it
gets to us! This doesn't really bother me anymore though, in my other
place the chlorine might be slightly higher, but there's probably not
much difference.

The residual chlorine level should bother you. Having some free chlorine in
the system helps suppress the microbial growth in the main, (as mentioned
above).





We don't have rust stains on our clothes ever, no. The iron content in
the water is low, but the problem seems to be one of iron bacteria
(dark brown) from the CI mains pipe walls themselves which makes our
water a bit slimy and leaves clumps in the toilet cistern, dirties the
washing machine drawer, and deposits on the bottom of our attic tank.
You can always see some colour in the water when it is filled up in a
basin for instance as yellow. Yet our clothes come out pretty well,
though all our towels can get that sour smell very quickly.

The main is definitely CI, and there are no plans to reline it.
Though there is a big undertaking elsewhere in the city, with a lot
of the larger and older mains supplying bigger roads being
relined/replaced:
http://www.watermainsrehab.com/index...ats-being-done

This is logical. Generally, it gives the greatest result for the
money spent. Also, some of the smaller mains might not need relining
as a result.

We are way below all of these proposed zones and completed zones
though, so we will not see any benefit. I suspect that the supply
around my area is considered very good, I'm told complaints are very
low, but there are some dodgy ways in which certain roads, like mine,
are fed. One way for me to find this out would be if they air jetted
my road's water main and if the sediment was no longer there for even
a few days, it would prove the problem is not on my side of the fence.
I will first have to get someone around to have a look though, as I'm
no expert.

Air jetting the main would definitely help; though for how long is
questionable. If I recall correctly, on one persistent problematic main, the
success was measured in terms of months.

Well, what I mean when I say it doesn't bother me is that there is
nothing that I can do about it, so I can't let it bother me. Unless an
air jetting managed to clear enough gunk in the main to allow some
free chlorine to once again be present in the pipe. I just wish I knew
for sure if it was my problem or the council's. It seems that unless
the neighbours were to back me, which they probably would not, I'm out
on a limb telling the council that our supply is ****... I don't think
any plumber is going to know what to make of this either. It's
probably a case of such localised water distribution negligence that
its practically unheard of in a city such as Dublin. Which makes
finding someone here who can suss it out for sure a real chore.

None wrote:
On Jun 25, 1:56 pm, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 25, 11:46 am, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On 24 June, 22:48, "Clot" wrote:
None wrote:
On Jun 24, 12:43 am, "Clot" wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:11:14 -0700 (PDT), None wrote:

a snip

Well, what I mean when I say it doesn't bother me is that there is
nothing that I can do about it, so I can't let it bother me. Unless an
air jetting managed to clear enough gunk in the main to allow some
free chlorine to once again be present in the pipe. I just wish I knew
for sure if it was my problem or the council's. It seems that unless
the neighbours were to back me, which they probably would not, I'm out
on a limb telling the council that our supply is ****... I don't think
any plumber is going to know what to make of this either. It's
probably a case of such localised water distribution negligence that
its practically unheard of in a city such as Dublin. Which makes
finding someone here who can suss it out for sure a real chore.

I'm sorry that I don't think that I can be more constructive in this
situation. I do think that you should keep bashing away at the Water Dept.
The greater the number of complaints there are within a given distribution
zone, the greater chance there is that your zone creeps up the priority
list. There is probably an annual review of where capital expenditure will
be committed and one of the criteria is the number of complaints within the
zone. Getting neighbours on board will certainly be a help in this, though I
appreciate that you have not seemed to have had much success in this aspect
to date.

Best of luck.

Clot