Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so can't
be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity to
call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct something out
of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier to fix the
surround directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there any reason why
this isn't a good idea?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so
can't be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity
to call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct
something out of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier
to fix the surround directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there
any reason why this isn't a good idea?

Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to fix
straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they invariably had
(and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and the aluminium. How old
is the door which you have acquired?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Stuart Noble coughed up some electrons that declared:

Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so can't
be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity to
call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct something out
of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier to fix the
surround directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there any reason why
this isn't a good idea?

I have removed an ali door that is at leats 20 years old that was fixed
directly to brick. The frame is strong but it's not very thick and clearly
relied on being fixed at regular intervals.

If you use frame packers so doing the screws up tight doesn;t warp the
frame, but allows you to get a good hold with the screws, I see no problems
at all. Run a bit of mortar or PU foam around depending on gap size - that
will firm it up nicely, as I found with my new PVC windows (good fit ith 6
frame screwed, unmovable after foaming in).

Cheers

Tim

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
om...
Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I might
use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so can't be that
old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity to
call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct something out of
wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier to fix the surround
directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there any reason why this isn't
a good idea?

If this is in a kitchen, be prepared for pools of water under it when the
cold weather hits.
We are about to replace an aly door with composite - condensation from ours
is a real issue, although ours is probably 30 years old with knackered seals
etc.

Phil

TheScullster wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
om...
Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I might
use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so can't be that
old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity to
call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct something out of
wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier to fix the surround
directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there any reason why this isn't
a good idea?

If this is in a kitchen, be prepared for pools of water under it when the
cold weather hits.
We are about to replace an aly door with composite - condensation from ours
is a real issue, although ours is probably 30 years old with knackered seals
etc.

Phil


More recent aly doors have thermal breaks. Ie. something non-conductive
between the 2 sides of the door.

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so
can't be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity
to call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct
something out of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be easier
to fix the surround directly to the masonry top and bottom. Is there
any reason why this isn't a good idea?

Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to fix
straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they invariably had
(and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and the aluminium. How old
is the door which you have acquired?

No idea of the age, except that the glazed panels are 30mm, suggesting
it's fairly recent. It's also in pretty good condition generally.



Not a great picture but it's chucking it down out there

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so
can't be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity
to call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct
something out of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be
easier to fix the surround directly to the masonry top and bottom.
Is there any reason why this isn't a good idea?

Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to
fix straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they
invariably had (and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and
the aluminium. How old is the door which you have acquired?

No idea of the age, except that the glazed panels are 30mm, suggesting
it's fairly recent. It's also in pretty good condition generally.



Not a great picture but it's chucking it down out there


Well it's thermal break - so that's a good start.

However, the frame bit looks like it's basically a C section, which is flat
on the back of the bit shown. Is that correct? If so, it's meant to go into
a hardwood frame. If it was meant to go straight to brickwork it would have
an H section, with the 'legs' contacting the bricks.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Have just acquired an Everest white aluminium door which I thought I
might use to replace my ageing wooden back door. 30mm glazing, so
can't be that old.
It comes with an aly surround, but this doesn't have enough rigidity
to call it a frame. I imagine I'm going to have to construct
something out of wood to take it, but in many ways it would be
easier to fix the surround directly to the masonry top and bottom.
Is there any reason why this isn't a good idea?
Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to
fix straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they
invariably had (and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and
the aluminium. How old is the door which you have acquired?
No idea of the age, except that the glazed panels are 30mm, suggesting
it's fairly recent. It's also in pretty good condition generally.


Not a great picture but it's chucking it down out there


Well it's thermal break - so that's a good start.


However, the frame bit looks like it's basically a C section, which is flat
on the back of the bit shown. Is that correct? If so, it's meant to go into
a hardwood frame. If it was meant to go straight to brickwork it would have
an H section, with the 'legs' contacting the bricks.

Yes, it's a c section, but I wonder what the function of the hardwood
frame would be. H section would obviously be more rigid, but I'm sure I
could compensate with enough foam and fixings.
Then again I might just set the frame in a wooden surround with a step.
At least that way I could do most of the work in advance of ripping the
old one out, but then I'll have exterior wood to maintain

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:


Yes, it's a c section, but I wonder what the function of the hardwood
frame would be.

The wood - or the legs of an H-section frame - provide bending stiffness.
With a wooden frame, the ally will be flat against the wood, and if the
brickwork is irregular, there will be uneven gaps between the wood and the
brick - which you fill with sealant. If you try to screw the ally straight
to the bricks, chances are that it will bend.

Some of my ally windows have more like an F section, with one leg which goes
*almost* to the brickwork - with the wooden frame going all the way, and
with the otherwise exposed bit of wood being covered by sealant - so they're
zero maintenance.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Yes, it's a c section, but I wonder what the function of the hardwood
frame would be.

The wood - or the legs of an H-section frame - provide bending stiffness.
With a wooden frame, the ally will be flat against the wood, and if the
brickwork is irregular, there will be uneven gaps between the wood and the
brick - which you fill with sealant. If you try to screw the ally straight
to the bricks, chances are that it will bend.

Some of my ally windows have more like an F section, with one leg which goes
*almost* to the brickwork - with the wooden frame going all the way, and
with the otherwise exposed bit of wood being covered by sealant - so they're
zero maintenance.

Many thanks. I've got someone coming to look at the job this pm. Sharp
intake of breath time no doubt.

On Jun 9, 7:28*pm, "Roger Mills" wrote:


Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to fix
straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they invariably had
(and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and the aluminium. How old
is the door which you have acquired?

Wickes still sell aluminium doors with thin frames that need a wooden
frame.

MBQ

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Jun 9, 7:28 pm, "Roger Mills" wrote:

Most recent aluminium doors come with frames which are designed to fix
straight to brickwork - but previously (20 years ago?) they invariably had
(and needed) hardwood frames between the bricks and the aluminium. How old
is the door which you have acquired?

Wickes still sell aluminium doors with thin frames that need a wooden
frame.

MBQ

The guy that came to quote reckons it needs hardwood, but only to fill
the gaps at the sides i.e. not a frame as such. £150 plus materials.
Worth that just to avoid the d-i-y scenario whereby it's supper time and
we still don't have a working back door.

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:53:49 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:
Worth that just to avoid the d-i-y scenario whereby it's supper time and
we still don't have a working back door.

:-) I replaced our front door a few weeks ago, which was quite a hassle as
our house wasn't built when they had any particular standards - so all
modern doors are a bit higher than the opening (width-wise it was OK,
thankfully).

All went well, but making an opening taller whilst keeping things
structurally sound and not destroying half the walls seems to be something
of an art.

I've still got to paint the darn thing and seal around the frame and add
some trim to the interior...

I've seen people try to cut doors and frames down to size before, and it
seems to be one of those things that Never Ends Well.

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:53:49 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:
Worth that just to avoid the d-i-y scenario whereby it's supper time and
we still don't have a working back door.

:-) I replaced our front door a few weeks ago, which was quite a hassle as
our house wasn't built when they had any particular standards - so all
modern doors are a bit higher than the opening (width-wise it was OK,
thankfully).

Was this what they call a pre hung door with its own frame etc?


All went well, but making an opening taller whilst keeping things
structurally sound and not destroying half the walls seems to be something
of an art.

The art of staying below the lintel :-)
Height is my problem too. By knocking the plaster off I can see what I
assume is the bottom edge of a wooden lintel above the existing frame,
so in theory the top of the aly could be fixed to the underside of that,
leaving me 30mm to play with at the bottom. I gather this should be a
sill of some kind so that the drainage slots in the frame empty on to a
sloping surface.
With the sides it seems you don't know what wooden framing you need
until you've knocked the old one out. Maybe I'll take out a small cross
section to get the profile of the brickwork.
I'm beginning to see the advantage of upvc doors where framing isn't an
issue.


I've still got to paint the darn thing and seal around the frame and add
some trim to the interior...

I've seen people try to cut doors and frames down to size before, and it
seems to be one of those things that Never Ends Well.

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:04:41 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:53:49 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:
Worth that just to avoid the d-i-y scenario whereby it's supper time and
we still don't have a working back door.

:-) I replaced our front door a few weeks ago, which was quite a hassle as
our house wasn't built when they had any particular standards - so all
modern doors are a bit higher than the opening (width-wise it was OK,
thankfully).

Was this what they call a pre hung door with its own frame etc?

Yep. Just a cheapy job, nothing fancy - I'm banking on replacing it with
something nicer in a few years. One of the kids managed to break some of
the glass in the old door, and as that one had seen better days anyway it
was a case of rushing out and buying a replacement quickly.

All went well, but making an opening taller whilst keeping things
structurally sound and not destroying half the walls seems to be
something of an art.

The art of staying below the lintel :-)

I ended up taking some height out of the lintel (which was a
pair of 2x6's), but had enough space to add more material and make
it thicker, which should help. It won't be as strong as it was, and I'd
definitely have done something else if there was a storey above to
support, but I'm confident it'll be enough for what it needs to do
(flat roof above, snow weight in Winter, someone occasionally walking up
there to do DIY stuff etc.)

We put in a new door at the brother-in-law's place last weekend, and that
one was interesting; at some point in the past someone had taken out
material below the door frame to make the old door and frame fit - which
is perhaps not unreasonable, except they'd done it with a chisel by the
looks of it (or possibly with their teeth :-) so that nothing at all down
there was straight or level any more. We ended up putting in a whole new
bunch of support-work just to get things nice and flat and provide a
base for the new door/frame.

Height is my problem too. By
knocking the plaster off I can see what I assume is the bottom edge of a
wooden lintel above the existing frame, so in theory the top of the aly
could be fixed to the underside of that, leaving me 30mm to play with at
the bottom. I gather this should be a sill of some kind so that the
drainage slots in the frame empty on to a sloping surface.

Hmm, well 30mm sounds like it might be enough for a wooden sill/step,
just... although I expect you can buy aluminium ones pretty cheaply which
will have a much lower profile (the door I got has one which can't be
more than 20mm in height) - or maybe you can source one at a suitable
junkyard / recyclers (or via local Freecycle list) from a door that
someone's dumped.

With the
sides it seems you don't know what wooden framing you need until you've
knocked the old one out. Maybe I'll take out a small cross section to
get the profile of the brickwork. I'm beginning to see the advantage of
upvc doors where framing isn't an issue.

I think the typical approach is to rip everything out that's related
to the old door and its frame, measure, buy a new door that's as close
as possible to the available width - then do whatever work's necessary to
the opening to get the height right, put new door/frame in and shim out as
needed, insulate any gaps, then add trim (and seal up) to hide all the
grotty-looking stuff.

Given that you have the door, taking a cross-section seems like a good
idea and will allow you to assemble some likely materials for a frame -
then it shouldn't take too long when it comes to it to make something
functional. Adding the bits to make it look pretty can come later...

cheers

Jules

Was this what they call a pre hung door with its own frame etc?

Yep. Just a cheapy job, nothing fancy - I'm banking on replacing it with
something nicer in a few years. One of the kids managed to break some of
the glass in the old door, and as that one had seen better days anyway it
was a case of rushing out and buying a replacement quickly.

Out of interest, what does pre hung mean? Has the carpentry stuff for
hinges and locks been done? I hate all that chiselling, mainly because
mine isn't perfect I suppose. I noticed recently on a professionally
installed front door that the lock wasn't quite square, so that the key
went in at a slight angle. I couldn't live with that, especially if I'd
done it myself.

All went well, but making an opening taller whilst keeping things
structurally sound and not destroying half the walls seems to be
something of an art.
The art of staying below the lintel :-)

I ended up taking some height out of the lintel (which was a
pair of 2x6's), but had enough space to add more material and make
it thicker, which should help. It won't be as strong as it was, and I'd
definitely have done something else if there was a storey above to
support, but I'm confident it'll be enough for what it needs to do
(flat roof above, snow weight in Winter, someone occasionally walking up
there to do DIY stuff etc.)

More plaster hacking shows that my wooden lintel is 3" high and at least
that deep (can't see the far end), so I should be able to take a half an
inch section out of that to allow for a standard hardwood sill at the
bottom. I think I'd prefer that to reducing the sill thickness.

We put in a new door at the brother-in-law's place last weekend, and that
one was interesting; at some point in the past someone had taken out
material below the door frame to make the old door and frame fit - which
is perhaps not unreasonable, except they'd done it with a chisel by the
looks of it (or possibly with their teeth :-) so that nothing at all down
there was straight or level any more. We ended up putting in a whole new
bunch of support-work just to get things nice and flat and provide a
base for the new door/frame.

Height is my problem too. By
knocking the plaster off I can see what I assume is the bottom edge of a
wooden lintel above the existing frame, so in theory the top of the aly
could be fixed to the underside of that, leaving me 30mm to play with at
the bottom. I gather this should be a sill of some kind so that the
drainage slots in the frame empty on to a sloping surface.

Hmm, well 30mm sounds like it might be enough for a wooden sill/step,
just... although I expect you can buy aluminium ones pretty cheaply which
will have a much lower profile (the door I got has one which can't be
more than 20mm in height) - or maybe you can source one at a suitable
junkyard / recyclers (or via local Freecycle list) from a door that
someone's dumped.

Now that's a thought. Looks like they only come with the doors though.
The supplier I rang only stocks upvc sills, but at least they're only 30mm

With the
sides it seems you don't know what wooden framing you need until you've
knocked the old one out. Maybe I'll take out a small cross section to
get the profile of the brickwork. I'm beginning to see the advantage of
upvc doors where framing isn't an issue.

I think the typical approach is to rip everything out that's related
to the old door and its frame, measure, buy a new door that's as close
as possible to the available width - then do whatever work's necessary to
the opening to get the height right, put new door/frame in and shim out as
needed, insulate any gaps, then add trim (and seal up) to hide all the
grotty-looking stuff.

In an ideal world, but I can't get all that done in a day. Maybe not
even half of it!

Given that you have the door, taking a cross-section seems like a good
idea and will allow you to assemble some likely materials for a frame -
then it shouldn't take too long when it comes to it to make something
functional. Adding the bits to make it look pretty can come later...

I'm still tempted by the local handyman doing it for £150, especially as
DG was his trade for 30 years. However, "Give me another ring in a
month" sounds alarm bells. I've learnt that there is a particular breed
of tradesman that is always on the verge of doing the job but never
quite does.

cheers

Jules

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:15:28 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:


Was this what they call a pre hung door with its own frame etc?

Yep. Just a cheapy job, nothing fancy - I'm banking on replacing it with
something nicer in a few years. One of the kids managed to break some of
the glass in the old door, and as that one had seen better days anyway it
was a case of rushing out and buying a replacement quickly.

Out of interest, what does pre hung mean? Has the carpentry stuff for
hinges and locks been done?

I think it simply means the door comes with a frame and has the hinges
attached - I'm not sure if it provides any guarantees about lock holes
etc.

The one I got had the holes drilled / cut in the door to take standard
handles and locks (there seem to be two standards around for the size of
the circulr holes, and two for the distance from the door edge to the
centre of the holes, but modern lock kits come with bits so they'll work
with any combination).

I had to do a little bit of chiselling work on the frame though so that
it'd accept the lock-plates that I had in the lock/handle kit that I'd
bought separately.

More plaster hacking shows that my wooden lintel is 3" high and at least
that deep (can't see the far end), so I should be able to take a half an
inch section out of that to allow for a standard hardwood sill at the
bottom. I think I'd prefer that to reducing the sill thickness.

Yes, that seems reasonable, given that the span for a door frame isn't
*that* wide.

I think the typical approach is to rip everything out that's related to
the old door and its frame, measure, buy a new door that's as close as
possible to the available width - then do whatever work's necessary to
the opening to get the height right, put new door/frame in and shim out
as needed, insulate any gaps, then add trim (and seal up) to hide all
the grotty-looking stuff.

In an ideal world, but I can't get all that done in a day. Maybe not
even half of it!

Well, if you can get the door in place roughly one day, that's probably
good enough for overnight, then you can work on the rest the next.

I'm just doing the sealing and insulating on our front door this
afternoon, and I put the actual door in 3-4 weeks ago :-)

I'm still tempted by the local handyman doing it for £150, especially
as DG was his trade for 30 years. However, "Give me another ring in a
month" sounds alarm bells.

Is there any way you can get the height for the replacement door (cutting
the lintel as needed) whilst the current door's still in place? I
think that's the 'scary' bit personally - I just didn't know how long
that bit would take or what I'd find when I started hacking into the
plasterboard on teh one side, or cladding on the outside.

All the rest was pretty straightforward once I knew I had enough
width and height for the opening.

cheers

J.

Jules wrote:

Is there any way you can get the height for the replacement door (cutting
the lintel as needed) whilst the current door's still in place? I
think that's the 'scary' bit personally - I just didn't know how long
that bit would take or what I'd find when I started hacking into the
plasterboard on teh one side, or cladding on the outside.


Taking half an inch off the bottom of the lintel wouldn't be easy. Not
enough access for a router or circ saw. Maybe a series of plunges with a
kitchen hinge cutter and chisel the rest.
I'm exhausted just thinking about it :-)

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Stuart Noble wrote:

Yes, it's a c section, but I wonder what the function of the hardwood
frame would be.

The wood - or the legs of an H-section frame - provide bending stiffness.
With a wooden frame, the ally will be flat against the wood, and if the
brickwork is irregular, there will be uneven gaps between the wood and the
brick - which you fill with sealant. If you try to screw the ally straight
to the bricks, chances are that it will bend.

Some of my ally windows have more like an F section, with one leg which goes
*almost* to the brickwork - with the wooden frame going all the way, and
with the otherwise exposed bit of wood being covered by sealant - so they're
zero maintenance.

Continuing this (I don't move fast), this is a cross section of the aly
frame.



When screwing this to the wooden frame I assume it needs to be a tight
fit but, with just two 1mm legs in contact with the wood, it would need
to be mighty accurate to avoid leaks. Am I missing a gasket of some
kind, or is it just a silicone job?