Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just
discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords,
weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no
pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces
that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were
effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted
in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled
out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather
than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to
be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash
supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original
mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

Regards,
Duncan

donnysp wrote:
Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just
discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords,
weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no
pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces
that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were
effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted
in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled
out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather
than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to
be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash
supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original
mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

Regards,
Duncan

I would guess the box has been modified at some time. Is there room in
there for a second sash weight alongside the first? They're normally
only separated by a thin sliver of wood fixed at the top and you should
be able to see what's what from the inner pocket.

donnysp wrote:

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

It's better if the top one can move too. On hot days you get better
cooling by having an opening at both top and bottom of the window,
rather than just a single large opening at the bottom.

Pete

I would guess the box has been modified at some time. Is there room in
there for a second sash weight alongside the first? They're normally
only separated by a thin sliver of wood fixed at the top and you should
be able to see what's what from the inner pocket.

I've had the front lining off so that the inner sash's weight was
fully exposed and I can see that there isn't actually space for the
outer sash to have a weight. It's just masonry, that is, the wall!

I did a bit more searching on the web and found that there is such a
thing as a "single hung" sash window. The top one is not supposed to
move. So fair enough, it's going to be fixed. I'd still like to find
out how it was fixed when the building was built though!

Cheers,
Duncan

In article
,
donnysp wrote:
Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just
discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords,
weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no
pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces
that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were
effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted
in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled
out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather
than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to
be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash
supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original
mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

You can get spring devices to balance the weight of the sash rather than
using weights - and IIRC they fit from the outside of the frame, replacing
the pulleys. So could hopefully be used where the pulleys should be. They
don't work quite as well as weights, though, IIRC.
Regards,
Duncan

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

donnysp wrote:
I would guess the box has been modified at some time. Is there room in
there for a second sash weight alongside the first? They're normally
only separated by a thin sliver of wood fixed at the top and you should
be able to see what's what from the inner pocket.

I've had the front lining off so that the inner sash's weight was
fully exposed and I can see that there isn't actually space for the
outer sash to have a weight. It's just masonry, that is, the wall!

Sorted then.


I did a bit more searching on the web and found that there is such a
thing as a "single hung" sash window. The top one is not supposed to
move. So fair enough, it's going to be fixed. I'd still like to find
out how it was fixed when the building was built though!

Cheers,
Duncan

Just nailed at an angle through the sash face into the box lining I
imagine (if it extends that far).

You could always use sash stops to support the upper if you wanted a
couple of inches of ventilation, and then a sash lock for the closed
position. Obviously not how it was designed, but I wouldn't want to be
without top ventilation

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
donnysp wrote:
Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just
discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords,
weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no
pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces
that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were
effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted
in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled
out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather
than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to
be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash
supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original
mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

You can get spring devices to balance the weight of the sash rather than
using weights - and IIRC they fit from the outside of the frame, replacing
the pulleys. So could hopefully be used where the pulleys should be. They
don't work quite as well as weights, though, IIRC.

Dave is being extremely kind about these spring horrors. Don't.


NT

In article
,
wrote:
You can get spring devices to balance the weight of the sash rather
than using weights - and IIRC they fit from the outside of the frame,
replacing the pulleys. So could hopefully be used where the pulleys
should be. They don't work quite as well as weights, though, IIRC.

Dave is being extremely kind about these spring horrors. Don't.

I know - but they may be an option better than a fixed window. I'd never
replace weights with them - but if there's no room for weights, might be
better than nothing.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
You can get spring devices to balance the weight of the sash rather
than using weights - and IIRC they fit from the outside of the frame,
replacing the pulleys. So could hopefully be used where the pulleys
should be. They don't work quite as well as weights, though, IIRC.

Dave is being extremely kind about these spring horrors. Don't.

I know - but they may be an option better than a fixed window. I'd never
replace weights with them - but if there's no room for weights, might be
better than nothing.

Personally I cant make up my mind which is better, springs or blocks
that limit the top sash's travel to a short distance. I suppose
springs, just. Budget to replace them all though.


NT

On 31 May, 14:14, donnysp wrote:
Hi all,

I'm refurbishing the sash windows in my 140 year old flat. I've just
discovered that while the inner (lower) sash has the usual cords,
weights & pulleys, the outer (upper) sash does not. There are no
pulleys and no pockets.

All the wood is (obviously) really old, except for two modern pieces
that were in-between the parting bead and the staff bead that were
effectively holding the outer sash up (as well as it being painted
in.)

Once everything was freed up from the paint, the top sash just pulled
out easily. This suggests to me that it is designed to move, rather
than just be fixed. If that were the case I would have expected it to
be more permanently fixed.

Has anyone come across this kind of set up before? Is the top sash
supposed to be fixed? And if so, what would have been the original
mechanism for this?

I guess I could just nail, glue or some other way fix, the top sash in
position. I would like however to restore the window to its original
set up.

Any ideas or advice would be greatly welcomed.

Regards,
Duncan

Dear Duncan
I have come across such sashes frequently and they are normally fixed
and never designed to move. Often it is the side windows of a bay. The
usual fixings are through the sash ends projecting downwards in the
styles and with one or two cut nails (thin floor brads) into the
style.
If it is on the ground floor then I would have them put in fixed shut
and would also consider a stop strip in the style. If it is on a
first floor then the suggestions to have it open a bit would not pose
much risk.
chris

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I don't think I could use springs since I live in a listed building
(conservation area too.)

I'm going to go for fixing the top sash in place. I've got three
windows in a row, so 6 sashes, and when all are open there must be at
least 20 square feet of "opening" as it were. Plenty of ventilation!

I think I might use a "joggle or yorn" (see http://www.sash-style.co.uk/parts.php)
as a decorative way of holding the sash up.

Thanks again,
Duncan

In article
,
donnysp wrote:
I don't think I could use springs since I live in a listed building
(conservation area too.)

Dunno why not - they don't really show. They have some form of clock
spring built into the pulley and a thin metal 'strap' instead of the sash
cord - a bit like a steel tape measure in principle. But I'm guessing a
bit - I've only ever seen them, not installed them.

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

donnysp wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys.

I don't think I could use springs since I live in a listed building
(conservation area too.)

I'm going to go for fixing the top sash in place. I've got three
windows in a row, so 6 sashes, and when all are open there must be at
least 20 square feet of "opening" as it were. Plenty of ventilation!

I think I might use a "joggle or yorn" (see http://www.sash-style.co.uk/parts.php)
as a decorative way of holding the sash up.

Thanks again,
Duncan

Yorn? Horn?
Ideally you should secure them at the top as well. They'll rattle and be
draughty otherwise.