Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

--
Mike Clarke

On May 14, 10:33*am, Mike Clarke wrote:
Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday..
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

--
Mike Clarke

If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

Matt

wrote:
On May 14, 10:33*am, Mike Clarke wrote:

Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler..

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

--
Mike Clarke



If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

Matt

unfortunately that doesnt have much to do with commercial sense. The
sensible approach is to compare all the econimc aspects of each
option, such as:
- costs of repair versus replacement,
- life expectancy of each option
- differences in efficiency
- differences in servicing requirements

7 years is quite young for a boiler. If its not costly to fix...


NT

In article
,
wrote:
If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

Since they'll be trying to sell you the replacement - and it should
require fewer repairs, would you really take any notice of what they said?

--
*If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 14 May 2009 10:33:25 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think "refitting"
the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which case
current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

In any case the expense of safely reinstalling the boiler would incline me
to go for a new one now anyway, especially given the signs of decay in the
existing one you describe.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Being superstitious brings bad luck

"YAPH" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 May 2009 10:33:25 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water
yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the
DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow
and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen
dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting"
the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which case
current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

In any case the expense of safely reinstalling the boiler would incline me
to go for a new one now anyway, especially given the signs of decay in the
existing one you describe.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Being superstitious brings bad luck


I agree with John on this - by having it re-fitted you are spending money on
a boiler that has problems - makes sense to replace it. treat it as an
opportunity!

YAPH wrote:

I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting" the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which
case current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

That's an interesting point. I think I remember once reading that removing
and replacing the same boiler in exactly the same place was OK but it would
need to meet the new efficiency rules if it was relocated. Ours will need
to be replaced in almost, but not quite, the same position. The boiler is
mounted on an internal wall very close to the corner with an external wall.
The flue goes out of the side of the boiler and through the external
wall.The dry lining will involve 50 mm of Celotex sandwiched against the
wall under 2 x 1 battens which are then covered with plasterboard, There
isn't enough space for this extra 3.5 inches of insulation between the
boiler and the external wall so to do the job properly the boiler ought to
come off and be replaced about 3 to 6 inches to one side. Of course if we
did this the flue wouldn't reach and would need replacing as well in which
case perhaps Gas Safe regard this as a re-installation needing to meet the
new efficiency rule.

Overall it's quite a lot of work and money spent on the old boiler in
addition to the repair, which makes me think we might be better off going
for a new boiler while we're at it. The other extreme is to hope we get
enough life out of the boiler if we replace the driver board, leave the
boiler where it is and stop the dry lining a few feet before we reach the
corner where the boiler is, but it would spoil the appearance of the
finished job.

--
Mike Clarke

On Thu, 14 May 2009 21:40:55 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

... the boiler ought
to come off and be replaced about 3 to 6 inches to one side.

I'd be pretty certain this would count as a new installation.

However if you were simply taking the boiler off to wallpaper underneath it ...


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

How odd of God But not so odd as those who choose
To choose the Jews A Jewish god, yet spurn the Jews

On Thu, 14 May 2009 21:40:55 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

YAPH wrote:

I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting" the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which
case current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd
have to install a condensing one.

That's an interesting point. I think I remember once reading that
removing and replacing the same boiler in exactly the same place was OK
but it would need to meet the new efficiency rules if it was relocated.
Ours will need to be replaced in almost, but not quite, the same
position. The boiler is mounted on an internal wall very close to the
corner with an external wall. The flue goes out of the side of the
boiler and through the external wall.The dry lining will involve 50 mm
of Celotex sandwiched against the wall under 2 x 1 battens which are
then covered with plasterboard, There isn't enough space for this extra
3.5 inches of insulation between the boiler and the external wall so to
do the job properly the boiler ought to come off and be replaced about 3
to 6 inches to one side. Of course if we did this the flue wouldn't
reach and would need replacing as well in which case perhaps Gas Safe
regard this as a re-installation needing to meet the new efficiency
rule.

Overall it's quite a lot of work and money spent on the old boiler in
addition to the repair, which makes me think we might be better off
going for a new boiler while we're at it. The other extreme is to hope
we get enough life out of the boiler if we replace the driver board,
leave the boiler where it is and stop the dry lining a few feet before
we reach the corner where the boiler is, but it would spoil the
appearance of the finished job.

You might find it hard to obtain a replacement flue, which it sounds like
you are certain to need.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In message
,
writes
On May 14, 10:33*am, Mike Clarke wrote:
Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

--
Mike Clarke

If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

However, my Vaillant 242E was still working fine when I removed it after
more than 20 years in which time I had to replace the fan and the
secondary heat exchanger [1]

[1] - having descaled it, the leaks bunged up with scale started leaking



--
geoff

wrote:
wrote:
On May 14, 10:33 am, Mike Clarke wrote:

Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

--
Mike Clarke


If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

Matt

unfortunately that doesnt have much to do with commercial sense. The
sensible approach is to compare all the econimc aspects of each
option, such as:
- costs of repair versus replacement,
- life expectancy of each option
- differences in efficiency
- differences in servicing requirements

7 years is quite young for a boiler. If its not costly to fix...

The other aspect is that a modern (condensing) boiler will be much more
fuel efficient than the existing one, so it could be argued that for
every year you prolong the life of the old one it will cost you an extra
X GBP.

David

On 14 May, 21:40, Mike Clarke wrote:
YAPH wrote:
I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting" the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which
case current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

That's an interesting point. I think I remember once reading that removing
and replacing the same boiler in exactly the same place was OK but it would
need to meet the new efficiency rules if it was relocated. Ours will need
to be replaced in almost, but not quite, the same position. The boiler is
mounted on an internal wall very close to the corner with an external wall.
The flue goes out of the side of the boiler and through the external
wall.The dry lining will involve 50 mm of Celotex sandwiched against the
wall under 2 x 1 battens which are then covered with plasterboard, There
isn't enough space for this extra 3.5 inches of insulation between the
boiler and the external wall so to do the job properly the boiler ought to
come off and be replaced about 3 to 6 inches to one side. Of course if we
did this the flue wouldn't reach and would need replacing as well in which
case perhaps Gas Safe regard this as a re-installation needing to meet the
new efficiency rule.

Overall it's quite a lot of work and money spent on the old boiler in
addition to the repair, which makes me think we might be better off going
for a new boiler while we're at it. The other extreme is to hope we get
enough life out of the boiler if we replace the driver board, leave the
boiler where it is and stop the dry lining a few feet before we reach the
corner where the boiler is, but it would spoil the appearance of the
finished job.

No, I remember this same discussion on this groups a few years ago.
There was an corgi ruling that moving a boiler was not a new
installation, so you would not need to change you boiler to new regs.
Here you go. Things may have changed now of course !

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....b6bf12a247dd6d

http://tinyurl.com/qzbk7u

Simon.

On Thu, 14 May 2009 10:33:25 +0100, Mike Clarke
wrote:


Our 10 year old Worcester 350 combi stopped supplying hot water yesterday.
Demand for hot water fires up the boiler but doesn't send power to the DHW
pump. If I've interpreted the fault finding flowchart correctly then it
looks like the driver PCB needs replacing. There's already a few existing
minor issues with this boiler (like leaks from the quarter turn CH flow and
return valves on the manifold) and we're due to have the kitchen dry-lined
which is going to require temporary removal and refitting of the boiler.

In view of the other issues I was wondering if it might be worth considering
replacing the boiler with a new condensing boiler if the existing one
wouldn't be expected to have much more life after replacing the board.

Why not call W-B? They do a fix priced repair on their own boilers,
which is a lot less than a new boiler.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

On May 15, 11:04*am, wrote:
On 14 May, 21:40, Mike Clarke wrote:



YAPH wrote:
I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting" the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which
case current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

That's an interesting point. I think I remember once reading that removing
and replacing the same boiler in exactly the same place was OK but it would
need to meet the new efficiency rules if it was relocated. Ours will need
to be replaced in almost, but not quite, the same position. The boiler is
mounted on an internal wall very close to the corner with an external wall.
The flue goes out of the side of the boiler and through the external
wall.The dry lining will involve 50 mm of Celotex sandwiched against the
wall under 2 x 1 battens which are then covered with plasterboard, There
isn't enough space for this extra 3.5 inches of insulation between the
boiler and the external wall so to do the job properly the boiler ought to
come off and be replaced about 3 to 6 inches to one side. Of course if we
did this the flue wouldn't reach and would need replacing as well in which
case perhaps Gas Safe regard this as a re-installation needing to meet the
new efficiency rule.

Overall it's quite a lot of work and money spent on the old boiler in
addition to the repair, which makes me think we might be better off going
for a new boiler while we're at it. The other extreme is to hope we get
enough life out of the boiler if we replace the driver board, leave the
boiler where it is and stop the dry lining a few feet before we reach the
corner where the boiler is, but it would spoil the appearance of the
finished job.

No, I remember this same discussion on this groups a few years ago.
There was an corgi ruling that moving a boiler was not a new
installation, so you would not need to change you boiler to new regs.


So the procedure to fit a new boiler in a new place is:

1) move old boiler to new position.

2) replace old boiler at new position with new boiler at new position.

R

On 15 May, 11:24, RobertL wrote:
On May 15, 11:04*am, wrote:



On 14 May, 21:40, Mike Clarke wrote:

YAPH wrote:
I'd want to check with CORG^H^H^HGas Safe technical but I think
"refitting" the boiler might actually count as reinstallation, in which
case current rules on efficiency of the boiler would apply and you'd have
to install a condensing one.

That's an interesting point. I think I remember once reading that removing
and replacing the same boiler in exactly the same place was OK but it would
need to meet the new efficiency rules if it was relocated. Ours will need
to be replaced in almost, but not quite, the same position. The boiler is
mounted on an internal wall very close to the corner with an external wall.
The flue goes out of the side of the boiler and through the external
wall.The dry lining will involve 50 mm of Celotex sandwiched against the
wall under 2 x 1 battens which are then covered with plasterboard, There
isn't enough space for this extra 3.5 inches of insulation between the
boiler and the external wall so to do the job properly the boiler ought to
come off and be replaced about 3 to 6 inches to one side. Of course if we
did this the flue wouldn't reach and would need replacing as well in which
case perhaps Gas Safe regard this as a re-installation needing to meet the
new efficiency rule.

Overall it's quite a lot of work and money spent on the old boiler in
addition to the repair, which makes me think we might be better off going
for a new boiler while we're at it. The other extreme is to hope we get
enough life out of the boiler if we replace the driver board, leave the
boiler where it is and stop the dry lining a few feet before we reach the
corner where the boiler is, but it would spoil the appearance of the
finished job.

No, I remember this same discussion on this groups a few years ago.
There was an corgi ruling that moving a boiler was not a new
installation, so you would not need to change you boiler to new regs.

So the procedure to fit a new boiler in a new place is:

1) move old boiler to new position.

2) replace old boiler at new position with new boiler at new position.

R

You'd also have to install the new boiler in the old position, when it
is must meet the regs, then move it to the new location, thus removing
the requirement for regs.
Seriously though, if you are trying to avoid a condensing, you could
fit a new non-condensing cheapy in one of the "non-viable" positions,
then move it to where you really want it.
Or ask an MP for some more devious loopholes !
Simon.

On Fri, 15 May 2009 03:04:35 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:

No, I remember this same discussion on this groups a few years ago.
There was an corgi ruling that moving a boiler was not a new
installation, so you would not need to change you boiler to new regs.

I thought I asked CORGI's technical helpline a year or so back and received
the opposite advice! However I just checked with Gas Safe technical (who,
funnily enough, just happen to be in CORGI's home town of Basingstoke :-))
and was advised that it did not count as a new installation and therefore
was not subject to the energy-efficiency constraints of Part L, but
because you'd be moving the flue it would be notifiable under Part J.



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Press any key to continue or any other key to exit

On Fri, 15 May 2009 03:46:55 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:

Seriously though, if you are trying to avoid a condensing, you could
fit a new non-condensing cheapy in one of the "non-viable" positions,

No, the assessment has to be done for wherever a condensing boiler could
be installed: you can't just say "it's got to be at position X where a
condensing boiler wouldn't work".



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

This sig intentionally left blank

In article , Mark i@dontget
lotsofspamanymore.net writes

Why not call W-B? They do a fix priced repair on their own boilers,
which is a lot less than a new boiler.

I would have thought, like Poxy Batterton, they would decline to look at
anything more than 6 or 7 years old.

If the OP's boiler has been reliable for the last ten years, it doesn't
owe him anything. In his situation, I'd probably stump up for a new one
with a long warranty (e.g. W-B, 3 year warranty if you have it serviced
once a year) for peace of mind.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

On 15 May, 12:23, YAPH wrote:
On Fri, 15 May 2009 03:46:55 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:
Seriously though, if you are trying to avoid a condensing, you could
fit a new non-condensing cheapy in one of the "non-viable" positions,

No, the assessment has to be done for wherever a condensing boiler could
be installed: you can't just say "it's got to be at position X where a
condensing boiler wouldn't work".

OK, but they could tell you to fit it in the middle of the living room
wall. How do they decide a reasonable alternate location ?
Simon.

On Fri, 15 May 2009 06:00:41 -0700, sm_jamieson wrote:

OK, but they could tell you to fit it in the middle of the living room
wall. How do they decide a reasonable alternate location ?

Can't remember the gory details (I'm sure it's on th'interwub
somewhere) but generally one assesses possible locations for the boiler,
excluding ones like (IIRC) the living room, and scores each candidate on a
scale of points for factors such as length of flue required, necessity for
a condensate pump, the new location being in a different place from
where the boiler currently is and so on, and take the most favourable
score. If even that is higher than a certain number you can make an
exemption and fit a non-condensing boiler.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I can't stand intolerance

On Fri, 15 May 2009 13:22:18 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

In article , Mark i@dontget
lotsofspamanymore.net writes

Why not call W-B? They do a fix priced repair on their own boilers,
which is a lot less than a new boiler.

I would have thought, like Poxy Batterton, they would decline to look at
anything more than 6 or 7 years old.

If the OP's boiler has been reliable for the last ten years, it doesn't
owe him anything. In his situation, I'd probably stump up for a new one
with a long warranty (e.g. W-B, 3 year warranty if you have it serviced
once a year) for peace of mind.

If piece of mind is important then you can always buy a service
contract. I prefer to fix things rather than replace if possible.

My last boiler was still going strong after 20+ years.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

In article ,
Mark wrote:
My last boiler was still going strong after 20+ years.

As was my last one at approaching 30 years but it was essentially just a
heat exchanger, burner assembly and gas valve. Modern ones are much more
complicated - they have to be to get the current efficiency levels.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote:
Thus spake ) unto
the assembled multitudes:

If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in
saying that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use
a period of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler
should be replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a
boiler younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic
repair, and if not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new
one?

looks smugly at 30+ yr-old Glowworm back-boiler, still working fine
:-)

You shouldn't have said that says he with a 28 y/o Glow Worm.

In article ,
wrote:
Thus spake ) unto the assembled multitudes:

If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

looks smugly at 30+ yr-old Glowworm back-boiler, still working fine

Wouldn't be too smug about the 50% efficiency, though. I'd say a
condensing boiler (especially if you can DIY) would soon recover its cost.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mark wrote:

Why not call W-B? They do a fix priced repair on their own boilers,
which is a lot less than a new boiler.

Replacing the driver board isn't a problem, Worcester driver boards are
available for about £135 and replacement is a straightforward job. Of
course if it turns out that the diagnosis flowchart got it wrong then I'd
have wasted money on an unwanted board, in which case a more expensive
fixed price repair from Worcester would have been better.

If the boiler failure were the only issue then I'd probably go for the
repair but to make a proper job of the dry lining we really ought to remove
and re-fit the boiler anyway so considering its age there could be
something to be said for replacing it with a new one while we're at it.

At the moment we're inclined towards going for the new boiler. Since we're
pretty well having to strip out the entire kitchen to do the dry lining we
might as well go for it and avoid having to hack it about in a few years
time when the boiler will eventually need replacing.

--
Mike Clarke

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
wrote:
Thus spake ) unto
the assembled multitudes:

If commercial sense has any input to this, I think I'm right in saying
that British Gas and other contract maintenance providers use a period
of about 7 years as their benchmark as whether a boiler should be
replaced or not. So their commercial judgement is that a boiler
younger than 7 years old should be capable of economic repair, and if
not they replace it.

On that basis, 10 years is a good innings, perhaps time for a new one?

looks smugly at 30+ yr-old Glowworm back-boiler, still working fine

Wouldn't be too smug about the 50% efficiency, though. I'd say a
condensing boiler (especially if you can DIY) would soon recover its cost.


Unless it breaks down ...


--
geoff

Lobster wrote:

The other aspect is that a modern (condensing) boiler will be much more
fuel efficient than the existing one, so it could be argued that for
every year you prolong the life of the old one it will cost you an extra
X GBP.

The extra efficiency is useful but the saving is quite small compared to the
replacement cost. The existing boiler claims an efficiency ranging from 71%
at 9 KW up to 80% at 35 KW. A new combi with 90% efficiency might save 10
to 20% on the gas bill, last year's gas cost £520 so that could be a saving
of about £50 to £100 per year - 10 to 20 years would be quite a long
payback time.

--
Mike Clarke

In message , Mike
Clarke writes
Mark wrote:

Why not call W-B? They do a fix priced repair on their own boilers,
which is a lot less than a new boiler.

Replacing the driver board isn't a problem, Worcester driver boards are
available for about £135

Or about £50++ from me


--
geoff

In article ,
geoff wrote:
Wouldn't be too smug about the 50% efficiency, though. I'd say a
condensing boiler (especially if you can DIY) would soon recover its
cost.


Unless it breaks down ...

Buy a decent one, then?

The figures are more marginal for a decent RS boiler like say a Neataheat
- but for a back boiler they're difficult to argue with at current gas
prices.

--
*Upon the advice of my attorney, my shirt bears no message at this time

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
The other aspect is that a modern (condensing) boiler will be much
more fuel efficient than the existing one, so it could be argued that
for every year you prolong the life of the old one it will cost you an
extra X GBP.

The extra efficiency is useful but the saving is quite small compared to
the replacement cost. The existing boiler claims an efficiency ranging
from 71% at 9 KW up to 80% at 35 KW. A new combi with 90% efficiency
might save 10 to 20% on the gas bill, last year's gas cost £520 so that
could be a saving of about £50 to £100 per year - 10 to 20 years would
be quite a long payback time.

That only works if you assume it will never need replacing.

--
*Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mike Clarke wrote:

The extra efficiency is useful but the saving is quite small compared to the
replacement cost. The existing boiler claims an efficiency ranging from 71%
at 9 KW up to 80% at 35 KW. A new combi with 90% efficiency might save 10
to 20% on the gas bill, last year's gas cost £520 so that could be a saving
of about £50 to £100 per year - 10 to 20 years would be quite a long
payback time.


To get the 90% on the new one you may need new radiators to get the
return temperature low enough.

Andy

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
The extra efficiency is useful but the saving is quite small compared to
the replacement cost. The existing boiler claims an efficiency ranging
from 71% at 9 KW up to 80% at 35 KW. A new combi with 90% efficiency
might save 10 to 20% on the gas bill, last year's gas cost £520 so that
could be a saving of about £50 to £100 per year - 10 to 20 years would
be quite a long payback time.

That only works if you assume it will never need replacing.

Exactly, replacing a working boiler with a condensing one just to reduce
energy costs will never make economic sense and probably never even balance
out the carbon emissions from manufacturing the replacement. Replacing our
boiler instead of repairing it isn't a cost effective or environmentally
sound solution but we may well decide to replace it to get a better overall
end result with the kitchen refurbishment and to avoid extra disruption in
the future.

--
Mike Clarke

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
The extra efficiency is useful but the saving is quite small compared
to the replacement cost. The existing boiler claims an efficiency
ranging from 71% at 9 KW up to 80% at 35 KW. A new combi with 90%
efficiency might save 10 to 20% on the gas bill, last year's gas cost
£520 so that could be a saving of about £50 to £100 per year - 10 to
20 years would be quite a long payback time.

That only works if you assume it will never need replacing.

Exactly, replacing a working boiler with a condensing one just to reduce
energy costs will never make economic sense and probably never even
balance out the carbon emissions from manufacturing the replacement.
Replacing our boiler instead of repairing it isn't a cost effective or
environmentally sound solution but we may well decide to replace it to
get a better overall end result with the kitchen refurbishment and to
avoid extra disruption in the future.

Yes. Mine is in the bathroom and I replaced it as part of a major refurkle
there. I'd not have replaced it then otherwise.

--
*Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Thus spake "Dave Plowman (News)" ) unto the assembled multitudes:

looks smugly at 30+ yr-old Glowworm back-boiler, still working fine

Wouldn't be too smug about the 50% efficiency, though. I'd say a
condensing boiler (especially if you can DIY) would soon recover its
cost.

I've been agonising about that for ages. Should I go for a new, more
efficient, lower carbon footprint condensing boiler that's going to
break down every few years (if I'm lucky) and need replacing after maybe
10 years, or stick with my old, inefficient boiler that just keeps going
and going with almost no maintenance - though as it's in my lounge I
would really quite like to get rid of it and install a proper hearth and
maybe a log burner.

Not all condensing boiler break down frequently - and like anything else
the cost of fixing them varies dramatically, including labour costs. My
Viessmann has a self diagnostic feature for any fault which may prove
useful.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 16 May 2009 09:04:53 +0000, A.Clews wrote:

looks smugly at 30+ yr-old Glowworm back-boiler, still working fine :-)

looks smugly at gas bills for condensing boiler replacing 30~ yo dinosaur :-)


--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Who's *really* behind all these conspiracy theories?

On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:22:24 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Replacing the driver board isn't a problem, Worcester driver boards are
available for about £135

Don't think any of the boards Geoff does cost that much :-)



--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

I am neither for nor against apathy

Mike Clarke wrote:

If the boiler failure were the only issue then I'd probably go for the
repair but to make a proper job of the dry lining we really ought to remove
and re-fit the boiler anyway so considering its age there could be
something to be said for replacing it with a new one while we're at it.

Much of the cost of a new boiler is in the fitting rather than the thing
itself. So if you are going to be paying for the fitting in any case the extra
for the boiler may not be (too) significant.


--
djc @work

YAPH wrote:

On Sat, 16 May 2009 14:22:24 +0100, Mike Clarke wrote:

Replacing the driver board isn't a problem, Worcester driver boards are
available for about £135

Don't think any of the boards Geoff does cost that much :-)

Yes, Geoff's website shows a reconditioned part exchange one at £66.70
including VAT and delivery. I'm keeping that in mind as an option if we
decide to keep the boiler but installing a new boiler anyway while the
kitchen is totally ripped apart for other work is looking like the
preferred option despite the extra cost.

--
Mike Clarke

On Mon, 18 May 2009 08:44:27 +0000, A.Clews wrote:

looks smugly at amazingly-low maintenance costs and ultra-reliability
of 30~ yo dinosaur, far outweighing savings on gas bills ;-)

looks smugly at "Bosch" name tag on boiler :-)

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

Hypnotising Hypnotists Can Be Tricky

On Mon, 18 May 2009 14:22:54 +0000, A.Clews wrote:

The Bosch badge is no longer a guarantee.

thinks of mother's Bosch fridge/freezer which broke down beyond economic
repair at less than 3 years old

Long before we got to our current, third* Hotpoint F/F (the others having
broken down within months) I wished I'd bought the Bosch instead.

* 4th if you count the one we sent back because it was only a frost-free
fridge/freezer in the Hotpoint/Inde**** marketing weasels' Humpty-Dumpty
definition: if you want a real frost-free fridge/freezer, rather than a
frost-free freezer with a normal frost-prone fridge, you have to choose
what the weasels call a *fully* frost-free fridge freezer. Try saying that
in a hurry.

--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk

militant pacifist