I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
wrote:

I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

Probably better to crimp them - as explained in the DIY Wiki.

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping

--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

In article
s.com, scribeth thus
I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

If your having to ask that.. Don't do it .. crimp it, I would anyday
over solder much less fuss and a better joint and self insulating:...

But make sure to get a decent set of RATCHET crimp pliers not the cheap
'n useless ones..
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article
s.com, scribeth thus
I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

If your having to ask that.. Don't do it .. crimp it, I would anyday
over solder much less fuss and a better joint and self insulating:...

But make sure to get a decent set of RATCHET crimp pliers not the cheap
'n useless ones..

I have a couple of junction boxes in a ring main circuit with spurs off,
which apparently don't comply with the latest regs, is it OK to replace
these with crimped connectors, and if so, what size connectors would be
needed for the extra cores of the spur. If this is not OK, would it be OK to
neatly solder the joints, and then lay them in the junction box as before,
using the original screws to hold the now soldered joints in place?

In article ,
"Harry Stottle" writes:
I have a couple of junction boxes in a ring main circuit with spurs off,
which apparently don't comply with the latest regs,

Why? Is it because they are inaccessible for testing/inspection?

is it OK to replace
these with crimped connectors, and if so, what size connectors would be
needed for the extra cores of the spur. If this is not OK, would it be OK to
neatly solder the joints, and then lay them in the junction box as before,
using the original screws to hold the now soldered joints in place?

There isn't any general requirement to bring such items up to current
regs, as long as they conform with the regs in place at the time they
were installed. Having said that, I think you have to go back before
16th edition before that conformed, and this is something I would
bring to current standards.

Secondly, unless you are already very experienced at electrical
soldering, I would suggest using crimps. Crimping is likely to
produce a more reliable result in less experienced hands, providing
you are using a proper ratchet crimper and do a few practice goes
first on offcuts, and make sure you can't pull them apart and
the conductor is clamped firmly.

If you are _very_ experienced at electrical soldering, then a
way to do this is to use a standard screw terminal junction box
as normal, and afterwards solder each terminal and its conductors
together. This is not trivial because the T&E insulation won't
stand soldering temperatures with any stress on it, such as
bends near the terminal, or pressing on anything (other wires,
box edge). Also you'll need a powerful iron (50W absolute min)
or you'll take too long heating the metal and cause too much
damage to the insulation. Make sure the box itself is made of
thermosetting plastic (non-melting) -- the circular ones are
normally OK.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harry Stottle" writes:
I have a couple of junction boxes in a ring main circuit with spurs off,
which apparently don't comply with the latest regs,

Why? Is it because they are inaccessible for testing/inspection?

is it OK to replace
these with crimped connectors, and if so, what size connectors would be
needed for the extra cores of the spur. If this is not OK, would it be OK
to
neatly solder the joints, and then lay them in the junction box as
before,
using the original screws to hold the now soldered joints in place?

There isn't any general requirement to bring such items up to current
regs, as long as they conform with the regs in place at the time they
were installed. Having said that, I think you have to go back before
16th edition before that conformed, and this is something I would
bring to current standards.

Secondly, unless you are already very experienced at electrical
soldering, I would suggest using crimps. Crimping is likely to
produce a more reliable result in less experienced hands, providing
you are using a proper ratchet crimper and do a few practice goes
first on offcuts, and make sure you can't pull them apart and
the conductor is clamped firmly.

If you are _very_ experienced at electrical soldering, then a
way to do this is to use a standard screw terminal junction box
as normal, and afterwards solder each terminal and its conductors
together. This is not trivial because the T&E insulation won't
stand soldering temperatures with any stress on it, such as
bends near the terminal, or pressing on anything (other wires,
box edge). Also you'll need a powerful iron (50W absolute min)
or you'll take too long heating the metal and cause too much
damage to the insulation. Make sure the box itself is made of
thermosetting plastic (non-melting) -- the circular ones are
normally OK.


Thanks Andrew, I am pretty good at soldering so it should not be a problem.
I had thought of binding the cores with 5A fuse wire before soldering, the
cores should then fit in the terminal box OK, and could be also screwed, a
bit like a belt and braces approach, but when I got the soldering iron out
to do it, I realised that I had turned the power off and hadn't got any
power to do the soldering, so it was placed on the to do list :-) I will
have to run an extension from the garage to get it soldered, before nailing
down the floorboards.

Harry Stottle wrote:

be also screwed, a bit like a belt and braces approach, but when I got
the soldering iron out to do it, I realised that I had turned the power
off and hadn't got any power to do the soldering, so it was placed on

Another reason crimps are popular! ;-)

the to do list :-) I will have to run an extension from the garage to
get it soldered, before nailing down the floorboards.

Nothing to stop you placing crimps in the JB and just using it as a
housing to save titting about with heatshrink.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Harry Stottle wrote:

I have a couple of junction boxes in a ring main circuit with spurs off,
which apparently don't comply with the latest regs, is it OK to replace
these with crimped connectors, and if so, what size connectors would be
needed for the extra cores of the spur.

Crimps will join 2 cables end to end without any overlap, they aren't suited
to adding a branch.

--
Mike Clarke

wrote:

I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

You need some heatshrink in a couple of sizes (about 12mm does the
overall sheath). Strip the wires - about 15mm ought to do it. Slide a
smaller heatshrink onto the L & N wires, and the larger one onto one of
the cables. Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the
mechanical strength of the joint will come from the twisting - you don't
want to rely just on the solder. You then want an iron with a decent
sized tip and heat capacity. Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin
the tip, apply the iron to the joint, wait, then apply solder to the
joint and allow it to flow into it. Remove the solder and then the heat.
Allow to cool before moving. Repeat for the other wires.

Now using a multimeter on a low ohms range, test the joint quality from
the next adjacent test points (i.e. sockets either side in the ring).
Disconnect the repaired wires at both ends from the circuit, and at one
and twist together all three wires, then measure the resistance between
L&N, and L&E at the other position.

Compare your results with the expected values shown he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... istance_table

(you will need to estimate the length of the cable you are testing)

If all is well, heatshrink it up. And wire the cable back into circuit.

Don't underestimate the importance of testing - one dry joint could
cause significant localised heating of the cable.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm laid this down on his screen :
Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the mechanical strength of
the joint will come from the twisting - you don't want to rely just on the
solder. You then want an iron with a decent sized tip and heat capacity.
Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin the tip, apply the iron to the
joint, wait, then apply solder to the joint and allow it to flow into it.
Remove the solder and then the heat. Allow to cool before moving. Repeat for
the other wires.

Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult, overlap the two ends then bind with some small diameter
copper wire (30amp fuse wire?), then solder. I would also suggest
offsetting the three joints so they don't all occur at the same place
so the bulk is reduced.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
John Rumm laid this down on his screen :
Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the mechanical
strength of the joint will come from the twisting - you don't want to
rely just on the solder. You then want an iron with a decent sized tip
and heat capacity. Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin the tip,
apply the iron to the joint, wait, then apply solder to the joint and
allow it to flow into it. Remove the solder and then the heat. Allow
to cool before moving. Repeat for the other wires.

Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult, overlap the two ends then bind with some small diameter

With a couple of pairs of pliers, twisting 2.5mm^2 inline is actually
quite doable - just make sure you start with enough length of wire.

copper wire (30amp fuse wire?), then solder. I would also suggest
offsetting the three joints so they don't all occur at the same place so
the bulk is reduced.

Yup, staggering the joints helps.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
John Rumm laid this down on his screen :
Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the mechanical strength of
the joint will come from the twisting - you don't want to rely just on the
solder. You then want an iron with a decent sized tip and heat capacity.
Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin the tip, apply the iron to the
joint, wait, then apply solder to the joint and allow it to flow into it.
Remove the solder and then the heat. Allow to cool before moving. Repeat for
the other wires.

Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult, overlap the two ends then bind with some small diameter
copper wire (30amp fuse wire?), then solder. I would also suggest
offsetting the three joints so they don't all occur at the same place
so the bulk is reduced.

dangerous advice. Soldering works fine, but has one weakness that
catches people out: the solder is very soft and weak, and cant
tolerate movement. It is therefore essential that the wires to be
soldered are completely immobilised. You cant achieve that by wrapping
them with fusewire, twisting is the logical thing - BUT - twist them
twice as long as looks solid, else they're liable to fail.

TBH if you need instructions on soldering, dont do it. Its a fine
method if done right, but its so easy to screw up and leave a
dangerous joint behind. I've seen so many failures, thankfully at low
powers.


NT

After serious thinking wrote :
dangerous advice. Soldering works fine, but has one weakness that
catches people out: the solder is very soft and weak, and cant
tolerate movement. It is therefore essential that the wires to be
soldered are completely immobilised. You cant achieve that by wrapping
them with fusewire, twisting is the logical thing - BUT - twist them
twice as long as looks solid, else they're liable to fail.

I agree that solder cannot tolerate movement, which was why I suggested
binding them with wire rather than twisting.

Trying to twist a single solid core would harden the copper making the
joint weaker, plus produces extra stress where the joint ends - than
leaving the cores straight and over binding plus soldering. There was
nothing dangerous in the advice, I have done it successfully many times
and it is a standard method used for many decades.

In the 1960's there was an IEE regulation taught method of solder
jointing the then used 7/.029 cable. It involved binding the two ends
then tinning at two points along the length of the joint, rather than
tinning the entire length. It was fairly similar to a splice in a rope.
The point being to provide a joint which was not only sound, but had
some built in flexibility.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking wrote :

dangerous advice. Soldering works fine, but has one weakness that
catches people out: the solder is very soft and weak, and cant
tolerate movement. It is therefore essential that the wires to be
soldered are completely immobilised. You cant achieve that by wrapping
them with fusewire, twisting is the logical thing - BUT - twist them
twice as long as looks solid, else they're liable to fail.

I agree that solder cannot tolerate movement, which was why I suggested
binding them with wire rather than twisting.

Trying to twist a single solid core would harden the copper making the
joint weaker, plus produces extra stress where the joint ends - than
leaving the cores straight and over binding plus soldering. There was
nothing dangerous in the advice, I have done it successfully many times
and it is a standard method used for many decades.

In the 1960's there was an IEE regulation taught method of solder
jointing the then used 7/.029 cable. It involved binding the two ends
then tinning at two points along the length of the joint, rather than
tinning the entire length. It was fairly similar to a splice in a rope.
The point being to provide a joint which was not only sound, but had
some built in flexibility.

I'm a bit surprised that you can isolate the solder joint from all
movement and force by binding it. It would need to be 30A fusewire
rather than 5A, and presumably have a fair length of binding.


NT

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Trying to twist a single solid core would harden the copper making the
joint weaker, plus produces extra stress where the joint ends

Tell the GPO that - twisted connections were the norm for many a year.

--
*Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult,

Eh? Dead easy with ordinary combination pliers.

--
*Frankly, scallop, I don't give a clam

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:30:22 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
had this to say:

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult,

Eh? Dead easy with ordinary combination pliers.

But the OP was asking about _soldering_ :-)

--
Frank Erskine

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
Rather than try to twist them together, which with 2.5mm will be
difficult,

Eh? Dead easy with ordinary combination pliers.

But the OP was asking about _soldering_ :-)

Indeed - but you need a mechanically strong joint before soldering and
twisting the conductor is a good way. And is not difficult to do as you
suggested.

--
*24 hours in a day ... 24 beers in a case ... coincidence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frank Erskine wrote:

But the OP was asking about _soldering_ :-)

Actually I wasn't really asking HOW to solder, or crimp, for that
matter. I'm an electronics engineer so am quite competent at both.
What I wanted to know was the approved, i.e. 17th edition, method of
soldering T&E. I still don't know if I got an answer to that?

John Rumm wrote:

You need some heatshrink in a couple of sizes (about 12mm does the
overall sheath). Strip the wires - about 15mm ought to do it. Slide a
smaller heatshrink onto the L & N wires, and the larger one onto one of
the cables. Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the
mechanical strength of the joint will come from the twisting - you don't
want to rely just on the solder. You then want an iron with a decent
sized tip and heat capacity. Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin
the tip, apply the iron to the joint, wait, then apply solder to the
joint and allow it to flow into it. Remove the solder and then the heat.
Allow to cool before moving. Repeat for the other wires.

Now using a multimeter on a low ohms range, test the joint quality from
the next adjacent test points (i.e. sockets either side in the ring).
Disconnect the repaired wires at both ends from the circuit, and at one
and twist together all three wires, then measure the resistance between
L&N, and L&E at the other position.

Compare your results with the expected values shown he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... istance_table

(you will need to estimate the length of the cable you are testing)

If all is well, heatshrink it up. And wire the cable back into circuit.

Don't underestimate the importance of testing - one dry joint could
cause significant localised heating of the cable.

Thanks John, this is exactly the way I would have tackled it, being an
electronics engineer. However what concerned me is that the heatshrink
sleeving is normally very thin, certainly much thinner than the cable
sheath. I'm concerned that this would fail an electrical inspection.
Any thoughts?

wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

You need some heatshrink in a couple of sizes (about 12mm does the
overall sheath). Strip the wires - about 15mm ought to do it. Slide a
smaller heatshrink onto the L & N wires, and the larger one onto one of
the cables. Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the
mechanical strength of the joint will come from the twisting - you don't
want to rely just on the solder. You then want an iron with a decent
sized tip and heat capacity. Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin
the tip, apply the iron to the joint, wait, then apply solder to the
joint and allow it to flow into it. Remove the solder and then the heat.
Allow to cool before moving. Repeat for the other wires.

Now using a multimeter on a low ohms range, test the joint quality from
the next adjacent test points (i.e. sockets either side in the ring).
Disconnect the repaired wires at both ends from the circuit, and at one
and twist together all three wires, then measure the resistance between
L&N, and L&E at the other position.

Compare your results with the expected values shown he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... istance_table

(you will need to estimate the length of the cable you are testing)

If all is well, heatshrink it up. And wire the cable back into circuit.

Don't underestimate the importance of testing - one dry joint could
cause significant localised heating of the cable.

Thanks John, this is exactly the way I would have tackled it, being an
electronics engineer. However what concerned me is that the heatshrink
sleeving is normally very thin, certainly much thinner than the cable
sheath. I'm concerned that this would fail an electrical inspection.
Any thoughts?

Heatshrink IME is a little thinner - but also a bit tougher. It
certainly withstands 500V testing with an insulation resistance tester.
If you are particularly concerned there is nothing to stop you using two
layers. The main thing is to ensure the joint itself does not have any
sharp protrusions like wisps of solder or wire ends poking out.

Presumably if you are soldering, then it is in a place where it can't be
inspected in future anyway!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

You need some heatshrink in a couple of sizes (about 12mm does the overall
sheath). Strip the wires - about 15mm ought to do it. Slide a smaller
heatshrink onto the L & N wires, and the larger one onto one of the
cables. Twist the ends together tightly inline - much of the mechanical
strength of the joint will come from the twisting - you don't want to rely
just on the solder. You then want an iron with a decent sized tip and heat
capacity. Using a flux cored electronics solder, tin the tip, apply the
iron to the joint, wait, then apply solder to the joint and allow it to
flow into it. Remove the solder and then the heat. Allow to cool before
moving. Repeat for the other wires.

Now using a multimeter on a low ohms range, test the joint quality from
the next adjacent test points (i.e. sockets either side in the ring).
Disconnect the repaired wires at both ends from the circuit, and at one
and twist together all three wires, then measure the resistance between
L&N, and L&E at the other position.

Compare your results with the expected values shown he

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?... istance_table

(you will need to estimate the length of the cable you are testing)

If all is well, heatshrink it up. And wire the cable back into circuit.

Don't underestimate the importance of testing - one dry joint could cause
significant localised heating of the cable.

What kind of solder? There seems to be more choice in this post lead era.


--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

Graham. wrote:

What kind of solder? There seems to be more choice in this post lead era.

I always use 60/40 tin/lead solder. Something with a flux core, and a
eutectic melting profile. I usually get a fairly fine solder for
electronics work (say 22 swg) and hence would use that - however if I
were buying it for the purpose, then would go for a heavier gauge.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:10:48 +0100, "Graham." had
this to say:

What kind of solder? There seems to be more choice in this post lead era.

It's only places like Maplins that no longer sell real Pb/Sn solder.
Even B&Q sell the real thing...

--
Frank Erskine

wrote in message
...
I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

Soldering iron and solder.
Was it a trick question or are you genuinely stupid?

On May 10, 6:28*pm, "Clive" wrote:
wrote in message

...

I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?

Soldering iron and solder.
Was it a trick question or are you genuinely stupid?

Was that a trick post, you missed out the bit about sleeving, or are
you genuinely a ****?

Man at B&Q wrote:
On May 10, 6:28 pm, "Clive" wrote:
wrote in message

...

I need to join some T&E cable that will be inaccessible and I don't
want to use maintenance free junction boxes, so what is the approved
way to solder and sleeve T&E cable?
Soldering iron and solder.
Was it a trick question or are you genuinely stupid?

Was that a trick post, you missed out the bit about sleeving, or are
you genuinely a ****?

Well looking at his limited posting history still on my machine we have
such gems as:

On a message marked OT:

Yes, look at the title of the newsgroup, stop posting off topic rubbish and
go elsewhere. No one is really interested in who telephones you.

A rant on storage heaters:

That is why they are a complete waste of time and money, plus you pay
far more than anyone else during the day on Economy 7.

The polite comment of:

Oh I've seen much worse than that. You seem a bit of an idiot for posting
it.

The lack of comprehension:

What was the question?

And the responsible advice for disposal of petrol:

Pour it down the drain.

So I would guess that we do have one of nature's genuine 100% ****s
here, a rare but fine example of the breed.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/