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  #1   Report Post  
Pedge
 
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Default 1mm Twin earth cable query

I'm currently redoing my kitchen where i'm at the stage of putting a new
ceiling using timber and plasterboard.

I'm not a qualified electrician but have done some wiring in the past,
Before I put up the plasterboard i'm feeding a 1mm twin earth cable to the
otherside of the kitchen to be used for the kitchen wall unit under
lighting. The red 1mm cable has been fed through to the switch (via flush
conduit) that will be used for the wall unit lights and i'm going to
connect a live cable from the main ceiling light switch to the wall unit
light switch.

My question is, if the current wiring is 1.5mm can I use the 1mm wire to
connect to the wall unit switch and a 1mm live wire to feed off the current
1.5mm cable?

Am also looking at wiring the ceiling downlights with 1mm cable to be fed
off the current 1.5mm cabling.

Can this be done or will there be an overload?

TIA

Pedge
  #2   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Pedge wrote:
My question is, if the current wiring is 1.5mm can I use the 1mm wire to
connect to the wall unit switch and a 1mm live wire to feed off the
current 1.5mm cable?


Am also looking at wiring the ceiling downlights with 1mm cable to be
fed off the current 1.5mm cabling.


Can this be done or will there be an overload?


Assuming you have the standard 6 amp MCB on the lighting circuit, 1mm will
be fine.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #3   Report Post  
Lurch
 
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On 21 Jan 2005 18:56:03 GMT, Pedge strung together
this:

I'm not a qualified electrician but have done some wiring in the past,


TBH, most people that say this shouldn't be doing any electrical work
at all.

Can this be done or will there be an overload?

Obviously the basic understanding of electrical theory has escaped
you. Please let someone else do it.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
  #4   Report Post  
Mike
 
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"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On 21 Jan 2005 18:56:03 GMT, Pedge strung together
this:

I'm not a qualified electrician but have done some wiring in the past,


TBH, most people that say this shouldn't be doing any electrical work
at all.

Can this be done or will there be an overload?

Obviously the basic understanding of electrical theory has escaped
you. Please let someone else do it.


Whilst I understand your sentiments which are often well applied, I think
you are bring a bit over-zealous here. The OP asked a reasonable question
which Dave confirmed was okay.


  #5   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Lurch wrote:
I'm not a qualified electrician but have done some wiring in the past,


TBH, most people that say this shouldn't be doing any electrical work
at all.


Then there's no point in this DIY group attempting to answer wiring
questions?

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


  #6   Report Post  
Lurch
 
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Default

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:51:31 -0000, "Mike" strung
together this:

Whilst I understand your sentiments which are often well applied, I think
you are bring a bit over-zealous here.


Probably.

The 'single red to the switch' bit got the alarm bells ringing,
(coupled with the statement I quoted in my first post).

I could have probably worded it better, but I'm a little dubious about
the OP's competence. Sorry if not everyone agrees with me.

The OP asked a reasonable question
which Dave confirmed was okay.

Well, Dave answered the question, but did he really........

(BTW, I'm trying to word this post without sounding too agressive, but
it's not working so I'd like to point out I'm not having a go at you,
just explaining my reasoning).
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
  #7   Report Post  
Lurch
 
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:57:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this:

Then there's no point in this DIY group attempting to answer wiring
questions?


Well, I may have been a bit hasty with the shortness of my reply, it's
just that phrase scares me. If the OP hadn't put that statement in I
probably would have answered in a more useful way. The whole post
seemed a bit non-sensical to me so decided I'd rather not have to let
another electrician find the (what sounded like) bodge that was being
installed by the OP.

I may be wrong, but I'm edging on the side of caution today!
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject
  #8   Report Post  
Pedge
 
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Default

Lurch wrote in
:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:57:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
strung together this:

Then there's no point in this DIY group attempting to answer wiring
questions?


Well, I may have been a bit hasty with the shortness of my reply, it's
just that phrase scares me. If the OP hadn't put that statement in I
probably would have answered in a more useful way. The whole post
seemed a bit non-sensical to me so decided I'd rather not have to let
another electrician find the (what sounded like) bodge that was being
installed by the OP.

I may be wrong, but I'm edging on the side of caution today!


I understand what has been discussed since my original posting and the
work being done electrical, it is a dangerous area to touch if not
competant enough.

I've done wiring before in other rooms of the house which involved wiring
downlights + transformers. This obviously needed extra wiring from the
main supply into the room. Pretty simple if you know what you're doing.

My only concern here is that if the live supply into the room is a 1.5mm
cable can it be extended to the kitchen wall unit lighting using a
connection block and 1mm cable.

Dave has answered yes as long as there is a 6amp MCB. The fusebox only
has a 5amp fuse for the lighting circuit and not 6amp. On the calculation
of the lighting wattage throughout the circuit in the house dividing it
by the voltage it should be safe. These guidelines were checked on web
resources.

The 1.5mm cable can take upto 18amps and the 1mm 14amps.
  #9   Report Post  
Stefek Zaba
 
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Pedge wrote:


The 1.5mm cable can take upto 18amps and the 1mm 14amps.


Yes, that's the starting point.

Cable capacity is reduced by various factors, though. Since the first
consideration is 'will this cable get too hot carrying its normal load',
the first set of derating factors is to do with heat under normal load.
So, if a cable runs somewhere it's harder to get rid of the (natural,
inevitable, nothing wrong with it) warming, we allow less current
through it: examples of such spaces are running through thermal
insulation - the Regs have detailed tables and call out lots of
different ways a cable might run. Related to this is ambient temperature
(so derate the cable if it runs through an airing cupboard, or round the
back of a built-in oven, as it starts off warmer with no load), and
grouping with other cables (if it's close to other warm cables, they'll
warm each other up and can't be expected to lose as much heat as if they
were well apart.)

The second set of limitations isn't to do with the normal (design) load,
but rather performance of the cable under fault conditions. Here, you're
looking at what happens when there's a short-circuit across
live-to-earth and live-to-neutral. Although when thinking about the
'normal' case you treat cable conductors as having negligible, indeed
zero, resistance, when thinking about performance under these conditions
we examine the small but definitely non-zero cable resistances closely,
to work out (a) how much current will flow, (b) therefore how long it'll
take the fuse or MCB to react to that fault current, (c) how hot the
cable will get during that fault-clearing time. This is where not just
the thickness of the cable conductors but their total *length* comes
into play: the longer the run, the higher the resistance, the lower the
current flowing, BUT therefore the longer the fault takes to clear so
the longer the cable has to heat up. For these (rare, short-lived)
faults we allow the temperature to go quite a lot higher than for normal
loading (e.g. for PVC cables, the limit temp is 160 degrees C for the
fault condition, but 70 degrees for normal loading).

Finally, there's one more limit on cable length, which is working out
whether too much of the supply voltage will be dropped in the cable and
not make it to the load - the conventional limit is to lose no more than
4% of the supply voltage along the way.

All these factors need, in principle, to be taken into account each time
a 'final circuit' - a run from your consumer unit - is designed. This is
why it's often not possible to answer a simple-sounding query - 'will it
be OK to wire my lights/heater/shower/garage in 1/1.5/2.5/4/6/10
mmsq' - with a simple yes/no answer.

In practice, though, there are 'conventional circuits' where the
calculations are done in advance, and these are tabulated in the IEE
On-Site Guide, along with their maximum lengths. And in further
practice, lighting circuits are usually well over-specified - as you've
found yourself, the nominal capacity of 1 and 1.5 mmsq cable is up
around 14 and 18A respectively, given ungrouped, normal-ambient,
not-surrounded-by-insulation, yada yada yada. So in your case, it's
massively unlikely that 1mmsq would be at all wrong for your short
side-runs, even if the main part's done in 1.5mmsq; and the main part
being done in 1.5mmsq is itself unusual enough that it might be just
what whoever was wiring it had to hand, or becuase for a part of its run
it's surrounded by thermal insulation which won't be the case on the
bits you're adding in...

HTH - Stefek
  #10   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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Default


"Pedge" wrote in message
...

snip

I've done wiring before in other rooms of the house which involved wiring
downlights + transformers. This obviously needed extra wiring from the
main supply into the room. Pretty simple if you know what you're doing.


And possibly lethal if it turns out that the person isn't as competent as
they thought...


My only concern here is that if the live supply into the room is a 1.5mm
cable can it be extended to the kitchen wall unit lighting using a
connection block and 1mm cable.

snip

Then you are not competent, think about it, can you vouch for all your other
work if you have failed to understand the basic theory ?

I think you have encapsulated the thinking behind 'part P' !




  #11   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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Default

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I've done wiring before in other rooms of the house which involved
wiring downlights + transformers. This obviously needed extra wiring
from the main supply into the room. Pretty simple if you know what
you're doing.


And possibly lethal if it turns out that the person isn't as competent
as they thought...



My only concern here is that if the live supply into the room is a
1.5mm cable can it be extended to the kitchen wall unit lighting using
a connection block and 1mm cable.

snip


Then you are not competent, think about it, can you vouch for all your
other work if you have failed to understand the basic theory ?


It's possible to simply copy exactly other similar wiring without really
understanding all the theory. I've been doing this for years. ;-)

The far more dangerous approach is the IMM technique of truly believing he
knows what he's talking about, but plainly doesn't.

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #12   Report Post  
Pedge
 
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
:

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
I've done wiring before in other rooms of the house which involved
wiring downlights + transformers. This obviously needed extra
wiring from the main supply into the room. Pretty simple if you
know what you're doing.


And possibly lethal if it turns out that the person isn't as
competent as they thought...



My only concern here is that if the live supply into the room is a
1.5mm cable can it be extended to the kitchen wall unit lighting
using a connection block and 1mm cable.

snip


Then you are not competent, think about it, can you vouch for all
your other work if you have failed to understand the basic theory ?


It's possible to simply copy exactly other similar wiring without
really understanding all the theory. I've been doing this for years.
;-)

The far more dangerous approach is the IMM technique of truly
believing he knows what he's talking about, but plainly doesn't.


I could just use 1.5mm like I did last time but as somebody gave me a
left over reel of 1mm cable i'm going to use this instead.

This 1mm cable will be used to power 3x 25watt kitchen wall unit
underlighting and a seperate 1mm cable will power 3x 50watt halogen
downlights. Both 1mm cables will be joined to the 1.5mm live current into
the room.

Kitchen unit lighting= 3 x 25w= 75w= 75w / 240v= 0.3125A
Halogen downlights= 3 x 50w= 150w / 240v= 0.625A

Total ampage = 0.9375 Amps

Cable load = 14 Amps

So in the above calculation it's ok.
  #13   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Pedge wrote:
I could just use 1.5mm like I did last time but as somebody gave me a
left over reel of 1mm cable i'm going to use this instead.


This 1mm cable will be used to power 3x 25watt kitchen wall unit
underlighting and a seperate 1mm cable will power 3x 50watt halogen
downlights. Both 1mm cables will be joined to the 1.5mm live current into
the room.


Kitchen unit lighting= 3 x 25w= 75w= 75w / 240v= 0.3125A
Halogen downlights= 3 x 50w= 150w / 240v= 0.625A


Total ampage = 0.9375 Amps


Cable load = 14 Amps


So in the above calculation it's ok.


As was said by Stefek, in general you don't have to worry about cable
sizes on a domestic 5 amp lighting circuit as either 1.5 or 1mm will be
fine. However, it's worth totalling up the entire load to avoid having the
fuse or breaker go - it's quite easy these days to exceed 5 amps for one
floor in a house.

But do be aware the 14 amp rating for 1mm is under ideal circumstances
where the cable is kept cool by adequate ventilation - it's not an
absolute rating for all circumstances. However, for your application it
will be just fine.

--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #14   Report Post  
Andrew Chesters
 
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Pedge wrote:

I could just use 1.5mm like I did last time but as somebody gave me a
left over reel of 1mm cable i'm going to use this instead.

This 1mm cable will be used to power 3x 25watt kitchen wall unit
underlighting and a seperate 1mm cable will power 3x 50watt halogen
downlights. Both 1mm cables will be joined to the 1.5mm live current into
the room.

Kitchen unit lighting= 3 x 25w= 75w= 75w / 240v= 0.3125A
Halogen downlights= 3 x 50w= 150w / 240v= 0.625A

Total ampage = 0.9375 Amps

Cable load = 14 Amps

So in the above calculation it's ok.


In addition to _some_ of the points above, please do use a proper
junction box, not terminal strip, to make any joints in your system.
  #15   Report Post  
Pedge
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Andrew Chesters wrote in
:

Pedge wrote:

I could just use 1.5mm like I did last time but as somebody gave me a
left over reel of 1mm cable i'm going to use this instead.

This 1mm cable will be used to power 3x 25watt kitchen wall unit
underlighting and a seperate 1mm cable will power 3x 50watt halogen
downlights. Both 1mm cables will be joined to the 1.5mm live current
into the room.

Kitchen unit lighting= 3 x 25w= 75w= 75w / 240v= 0.3125A
Halogen downlights= 3 x 50w= 150w / 240v= 0.625A

Total ampage = 0.9375 Amps

Cable load = 14 Amps

So in the above calculation it's ok.


In addition to _some_ of the points above, please do use a proper
junction box, not terminal strip, to make any joints in your system.


Thanks to all for the advice. Will use proper 4 inch junction boxes for
this.


  #16   Report Post  
nick smith
 
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So in the above calculation it's ok.


In addition to _some_ of the points above, please do use a proper
junction box, not terminal strip, to make any joints in your system.


Thanks to all for the advice. Will use proper 4 inch junction boxes for
this.


I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt or low
voltage (12V ?)
and the thread replies seemed to assume 240V

In the 12 volt case, the current will be a bit higher (in the low voltage part
of the circuit...... ;-)

but I haven't got the earlier replies or the original posting available....

Nick


  #17   Report Post  
Andy Burns
 
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nick smith wrote:

I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt or low
voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)
  #18   Report Post  
Dave Plowman (News)
 
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In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt
or low voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)


Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever, LV means to most
its safe to a human. And 230v most certainly isn't. 50 volts used to be
the accepted maximum - although I notice my Fluke meter puts up a warning
flag at 30.

--
*Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #19   Report Post  
Bob Eager
 
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:28:13 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt
or low voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)


Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever


It's the 'jargon' used by 16th Edition...!
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...dump Windows!
  #20   Report Post  
:::Jerry::::
 
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"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:28:13 UTC, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt
or low voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)


Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever


It's the 'jargon' used by 16th Edition...!


But how many on this group are going to work with 25Kv distribution lines...

I can see the point Dave is making, to describe 240v as 'low voltage' in a
DIY group without explanation is daft at best and lethal at worst.




  #21   Report Post  
nick smith
 
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OK - nit picker(s), in this context my point is ...

Is the 1.0mm cable being used for the 12 volt part of the circuit (if it
exists) or the 240 volt part of the circuit.
(cue someeone to correct me on 240 volts "not existing anymore")

My point (as most well knew) is that the current (at whatever the total load
is) is going to be twenty times
greater in a 12 volt circuit and the 1.0mm cable is unlikely going to be
adequate, except for short
runs and/or low power....

---------- Are we trying to help the OP or not
---------------


Nick


  #22   Report Post  
Andy Wade
 
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:


It's the 'jargon' used by 16th Edition...!

Presumably to differentiate from three phase?


No, 3-ph 400 V is still low voltage. LV is anything up to 1000 volts AC
or 1.5 kV DC between conductors, or 600 V AC & 900 V DC to earth.

Still rubbish though. ;-)


Not really, these voltage classes have been in use for decades. 11 kV
(line) only counts as medium voltage.

It's context dependent. A 1.5 kV rail inside a piece of electronic
equipment would probably be labelled 'EHT'. For electricity generation,
distribution and supply it's only LV.

For line voltage (i.e. voltage between phases) in 3-ph distribution systems:

- LV is up to 1 kV
- MV is 1 kV to 36 kV
- HV is 36 kV to 245 kV
- EHV is 245 kV

In BS 7671:

- ELV is up to 50 V AC or 120 V ripple-free DC, whether between
conductors, or to earth

- ELV sources are either SELV (floating wrt ground) or PELV (earthed)

- LV is anything exceeding ELV up to the limits defined above.

--
Andy
  #23   Report Post  
Pedge
 
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"nick smith" wrote in
:

OK - nit picker(s), in this context my point is ...

Is the 1.0mm cable being used for the 12 volt part of the circuit (if
it exists) or the 240 volt part of the circuit.
(cue someeone to correct me on 240 volts "not existing anymore")

My point (as most well knew) is that the current (at whatever the
total load is) is going to be twenty times
greater in a 12 volt circuit and the 1.0mm cable is unlikely going to
be adequate, except for short
runs and/or low power....

---------- Are we trying to help the OP or not
---------------


Nick



OK. Most of the plasterboard has gone up and the wiring i've done is as
follows:

- Main wiring into kitchen from fusebox is 1.5mm
- Connected the 1.5mm cable to a junction box and used 3x 1.5mm wiring at
30cm lengths to connect to 3x 12v transformers which will supply 3x 50W
Halogens.

The Emcalite transformer says that it is 240V - 11.4V, 50~60Hz, 20-60VA,
0.27A, SELV. I didn't actually mention in my original posting but I am
using a dimmer switch for the halogens.

The second part to the wiring from the junction box installed is that a
1mm cable was conected to the neutral terminal and a red wire to the
switch terminal. This will supply lighting to the kitchen wall units. I
can see that some lights out there also use 12V tranformers.

I've tested each wire where the lights work.
  #24   Report Post  
Mike
 
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Default


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt
or low voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)


Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever, LV means to most
its safe to a human. And 230v most certainly isn't. 50 volts used to be
the accepted maximum - although I notice my Fluke meter puts up a warning
flag at 30.


UL (Underwriters Labs), the people who certify mains power supplies in most
equipment, define the safe limit as 42volts


  #25   Report Post  
Frank Erskine
 
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On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:26:28 -0000, "Mike" wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240 volt
or low voltage (12V ?)


In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)


Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever, LV means to most
its safe to a human. And 230v most certainly isn't. 50 volts used to be
the accepted maximum - although I notice my Fluke meter puts up a warning
flag at 30.


UL (Underwriters Labs), the people who certify mains power supplies in most
equipment, define the safe limit as 42volts

Not in the UK though.

--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland


  #26   Report Post  
Mike
 
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"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:26:28 -0000, "Mike" wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
I didn't see anywhere in this thread whether the bulbs were 240

volt
or low voltage (12V ?)

In this context 240V *is* low voltage (LV), 12V would be classed as
extra low voltage (ELV)

Hmm. Regardless of power transmission jargon or whatever, LV means to

most
its safe to a human. And 230v most certainly isn't. 50 volts used to be
the accepted maximum - although I notice my Fluke meter puts up a

warning
flag at 30.


UL (Underwriters Labs), the people who certify mains power supplies in

most
equipment, define the safe limit as 42volts

Not in the UK though.


UL is the main body recognised worldwide to make such definitions.
What is different in the UK ?

In any case the IEC regs would override the UK ones even if they were
different.


  #27   Report Post  
Andy Wade
 
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Mike wrote:

UL is the main body recognised worldwide to make such definitions.
What is different in the UK ?


Err, the fact that we're in Europe, not North America. The legal
framework for electrical product safety in EU countries comes from what
is usually called the 'low-voltage directive' or LVD[1] which is
implemented in the UK as the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations
1994. These cover equipment operating at between 50 and 1000 V AC or 75
V and 1.5 kV DC, which matches the definition in BS 7671. Compliance
with the regulations can be demonstrated by product manufacturers by the
use of harmonised European standards - such as EN 60950 (IT equipment)
and EN 60065 (A/V equipment) EN 60335 ('white goods' type appliances) -
not UL standards.

(It is true though that many UL standards are recognised worldwide,
particularly UL 94 which deals with the flammability of materials.)

In any case the IEC regs would override the UK ones even if they were
different.


The IEC makes standards, not regulations.


[1] Directive 73/23/EEC, full title: "Council Directive of 19 February
1973 on the harmonisation of the laws of Member States relating to
Electrical Equipment designed for use within certain voltage limits."
This was one of the first EEC directives to be implemented in the UK,
and was modified in 1994 to require CE marking.

--
Andy
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