This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks off
her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when pluged into
one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a shock off them
when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed L-Pe
and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and the
earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow disconnected
from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is a junction box
under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit that is not part
of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago and
only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor got a
shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a kitchen
worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when pluged
into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed L-Pe
and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

Does make you wonder.

Glad it was not technically a Darwin award after all (but could so easily
have been).

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...
This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when pluged
into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed L-Pe
and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam



So, you think that the earth is disconnected in a JB under the floor? How
did you sort it?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
ARWadsworth wrote:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)
when pluged into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She
even got a shock off them when the switch on the socket was turned
off.
I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed
L-Pe and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket
and the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is
somehow disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect
that there is a junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only
socket on the circuit that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years
ago and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health
visitor got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call
someone.
That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam


Indeed. So how - if at all - did you fix it?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when pluged
into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a shock
off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed L-Pe
and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is
a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

Does make you wonder.

Glad it was not technically a Darwin award after all (but could so easily
have been).

But now the Stupid Gene has been passed on to her baby.

Archie coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when
pluged into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a
shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed
L-Pe and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is
a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

Does make you wonder.

Glad it was not technically a Darwin award after all (but could so easily
have been).

But now the Stupid Gene has been passed on to her baby.

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

People don't have father who do things themselves so much, people are busier
so tend to get a man in for everything beyond nailing a picture up and I
doubt chemistry lessons involve making low to medium grade explosives
(unlike Johnny Gardner's "Christmas specials" bless him).

And TV house makeover programs focus on babbling presenters and people's
follies rather than how to actually do stuff.

Barry Bucknall might have given us hardboarded everything, but at least he
showed you how to use your tool with pride.

Snip/

.. but at least he showed you how to use your tool with pride.

I must have missed that ;-)

ARWadsworth wrote:

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago and
only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor got a
shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a kitchen
worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

I saw something similar back in the 70s. A friend got electric shocks
off the cooker, they were mild and they seemed to think this was normal.
Apparently this occured for months. Then the dog sniffed the cooker and
screamed the place down. And the fried discovered that touching the
cooker led to a painful shock. They stopped using the cooker but refused
to get an electrician in to look at it. The cooker was only a couple of
years old and I was puzzled by someone who would pay thousands for a
cooker then just ignore it.

Eventually persistent nagging by friends made them get an electrician
in, who had a heck of a job tracing the fault. It turned out to be rats.
A rat had chewed through the cable cutting through the earth and
exposing the live conductor. Then the rat seemed to have managed to bend
the earth leading to the cooker so that it was just touching the live
conductor. The earth leading back to the consumer unit was completely
severed. This had happened in a void and took some time to diagnose
because there was no obvious cause elsewhere.

Tim S wrote:

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

I don't think that's at all accurate. There are a few scholarly studies
of stupidity, they go back to the 1930s. The common conclusion is that
stupidity is with is now and has always been with us.

http://www.gandalf.it/stupid/stupid.htm

On Apr 30, 12:42*pm, Tim S wrote:
Archie coughed up some electrons that declared:





"Tim S" wrote in message
. ..
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when
pluged into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a
shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed
L-Pe and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is
a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

Does make you wonder.

Glad it was not technically a Darwin award after all (but could so easily
have been).

But now the Stupid Gene has been passed on to her baby.

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

People don't have father who do things themselves so much, people are busier
so tend to get a man in for everything beyond nailing a picture up and I
doubt chemistry lessons involve making low to medium grade explosives
(unlike Johnny Gardner's "Christmas specials" bless him).

And TV house makeover programs focus on babbling presenters and people's
follies rather than how to actually do stuff.

Barry Bucknall might have given us hardboarded everything, but at least he
showed you how to use your tool with pride.

And preserved all that lovelly panelling under the hardboard. Clever
guy actually!

MBQ

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
ARWadsworth wrote:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)
when pluged into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She
even got a shock off them when the switch on the socket was turned
off.
I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed
L-Pe and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket
and the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is
somehow disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect
that there is a junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only
socket on the circuit that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years
ago and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health
visitor got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call
someone.
That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam


Indeed. So how - if at all - did you fix it?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______


I checked all the other sockets on the ring. They were all on the ring with
no spurs from them.

The dodgy socket had clearly been added at a later date than the original
installation. The socket was the only one that was a spur. That is why I
think there is a JB under the floor.

Also

1) It had white PVC T&E not grey PVC like the rest of the house
2) I could see marks in the plaster below the kitchen worktop that showed
where the cable had been filled with pollyfiller and then painted over.

As the CPC at the dodgy socket is 200Mohm at 500V to the earth busbar in
the CU I decided to terminate the cable coming up from the floor to this
socket with a surface mounted JB. I dug some the cable from the wall to
expose it. I then cut the cable and terminated the live end in a JB. This is
below the work surface and so not visible

I then took a spur from the socket behind the washing machine and ran a new
cable under the kitchen units and added another surface mounted JB to the
non live end of the cable that I had cut to repower the socket without
damaging the tiles.

Far from ideal. It leaves a JB with a L E short that I have no way of
knowing where it comes from. As long as the Megger says the CPC is not in
contact with the CU earth busbar there is little else I can do apart from
ripping the tiled floor up. There is no chance of that happening.


Adam

Far from ideal. It leaves a JB with a L E short that I have no way of
knowing where it comes from.

You should leave a note on paper in the dodgy JB
telling people who may uncover it in the future that it is dodgy.

But cant you discover which fuse in the consumer unit powers it
by removing them one by one?

[g]

"george (dicegeorge)" wrote in message
...


Far from ideal. It leaves a JB with a L E short that I have no way of
knowing where it comes from.

You should leave a note on paper in the dodgy JB
telling people who may uncover it in the future that it is dodgy.

It is noted on the certificate I issued.

But cant you discover which fuse in the consumer unit powers it
by removing them one by one?

The downstairs sockets. It is not a radial from the CU:-) Dodgey JB work
under the floorboards on that ring it most likely to blame.

Adam

Archie wrote:

But now the Stupid Gene has been passed on to her baby.

Depends on if stupidity is a recessive trait or not ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Steve Firth wrote:
And the fried discovered...

Paging Dr Freud! Dr Freud to uk.d-i-y, please!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...
This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when pluged
into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd got a
shock of the shower head.
I thought it pretty unlikely and suggested it might be static electricity,
but her boyfriend said
he also go a shock off a saucepan (and I really couldn't work that one out).
Luckily I'd given them a screwdriver with a neon a few weeks before,
so In asked instructed her how to use it on the shower head and she said it
lit up.
So I got a cab over straight away and discovered virtually everything that
should be
Earthed was live including the radiators. She said that the incinkerator had
stopped
working a few days before so I had a look at that.
It had been wired up using twin & Earth to a 3 pin plug under the sink and
connected to a
4way extention lead. The bare earth wire was not insulated and it looked
like
the LIVE wire had sprung out of it's terminal and shorted against the Earth
wire.
Now this should have blown the fuse, but didn't so I assumed that the flat
wasn;t
Earthed properly or at all. There wasn;t anything I could do except
disconnect
the insinkerator, so the earth was no longer live.
I told them to tell the landlady that the place was a death trap and
probably illegal
and to get an electrictian in, apparently a cousin had rewired the electrics
!!!!!!

The saucepan was live because it was sitting touching the electric metal
kettle
which was plugged in.

Not sure what hapened next but my friends moved out anyway.

"ARWadsworth" gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Far from ideal. It leaves a JB with a L E short that I have no way of
knowing where it comes from.

You should leave a note on paper in the dodgy JB telling people who may
uncover it in the future that it is dodgy.

It is noted on the certificate I issued.

Five-ten years down the line. She's moved. The certificate's long since
gone AWOL. The JB, otoh, is still there - and the new householder is
wondering why it's been left hanging there. Hey-ho. Might as well use it
for shiny new toy...

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd got a
shock of the shower head.

Many years ago I came across a similar situation. A neigbour
mentioned that their electricity bill was much higher than usual and
that they had noticed a tingling sensation when taking soap out of the
recessed dish in the tiled wall above the bath.

It turned out that when they replaced a light switch a few months
earlier the rubber insulation crumbled off a wire which then shorted
to the conduit. The conduit was not earthed.

It happened that the unearthed conduit ran behind the bathroom wall
tiles very close to the recessed soapdish.

They switched to bathing by candle-light until the house was rewired.

John

On 30 Apr, 13:29, (Steve Firth) wrote:

Then the dog sniffed the cooker and
screamed the place down.

Always trust a dog's judgement on such things - they have wet noses
and don't wear shoes.

Isn't this a similar situation to the daughter of a TV presenter who
dies a few years back, prompting yet another dose of legislation (was
it a claimed justification for Part P?) Kitchen has a known "tingle"
fault for ages, one day the victim is barefoot, or they happen to lean
against a better earth, and they wind up dead.

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
"ARWadsworth" gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Far from ideal. It leaves a JB with a L E short that I have no way of
knowing where it comes from.

You should leave a note on paper in the dodgy JB telling people who may
uncover it in the future that it is dodgy.

It is noted on the certificate I issued.

Five-ten years down the line. She's moved. The certificate's long since
gone AWOL. The JB, otoh, is still there - and the new householder is
wondering why it's been left hanging there. Hey-ho. Might as well use it
for shiny new toy...

It would have to be a thick ******* that uses a JB with the Live and Earth
connected into the same terminal to supply power for a new socket.

Adam

Andy Dingley wrote:

Isn't this a similar situation to the daughter of a TV presenter who
dies a few years back, prompting yet another dose of legislation (was
it a claimed justification for Part P?) Kitchen has a known "tingle"
fault for ages, one day the victim is barefoot, or they happen to lean
against a better earth, and they wind up dead.

Yes, I'd forgotten about that and the MP's daughter who died because of
a faulty extension lead, but he ended up supporting Part P. MPs, not the
brightest people on the face of the planet.

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 05:30:34 -0700 (PDT), "Man at B&Q"
wrote:

On Apr 30, 12:42*pm, Tim S wrote:
Archie coughed up some electrons that declared:





"Tim S" wrote in message
. ..
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric shocks
off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts) when
pluged into one particular double socket in the kitchen. She even got a
shock off
them when the switch on the socket was turned off.

I tried a socket tester. It showed L N reversal.
I tried my second socket tester (I keep one in my tool box and one my
test
case, different makes). That also said L N reverse.
I plugged in my proper test meter (a Di-log 9083P) That just flashed
L-Pe and L-N and would not perform a test.

The actual problem was not a L N reversal but NO earth at the socket and
the earth was shorted to the live. The CPC at the socket is somehow
disconnected from the CU earth busbar (200Mohm) I suspect that there is
a
junction box under the tiled floor. It is the only socket on the circuit
that is not part of the ring.

She has received shocks from this socket since she moved in 2 years ago
and only called me as she had a baby 2 weeks ago and the health visitor
got a shock when using the kettle and told her to call someone.

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Adam

Does make you wonder.

Glad it was not technically a Darwin award after all (but could so easily
have been).

But now the Stupid Gene has been passed on to her baby.

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

People don't have father who do things themselves so much, people are busier
so tend to get a man in for everything beyond nailing a picture up and I
doubt chemistry lessons involve making low to medium grade explosives
(unlike Johnny Gardner's "Christmas specials" bless him).

And TV house makeover programs focus on babbling presenters and people's
follies rather than how to actually do stuff.

Barry Bucknall might have given us hardboarded everything, but at least he
showed you how to use your tool with pride.

And preserved all that lovelly panelling under the hardboard. Clever
guy actually!

MBQ

Only if the panelling was flush .Loads of tenement flats in Glasgow
etc had the doors ruined by folk ripping the mouldings off before
hardboarding the doors . Luckily there is a place near me that does a
suitable replacement.





--------------
Any posting using my name and/or e-mail address
but other than by newsindividual.net is not being posted by me and should be disregarded .
Remove NOSPAM to reply by e-mail

In article , Stuart B
writes

Only if the panelling was flush .Loads of tenement flats in Glasgow
etc had the doors ruined by folk ripping the mouldings off before
hardboarding the doors . Luckily there is a place near me that does a
suitable replacement.

I moved into a Victorian house some years ago. All the beautiful cast-
iron fireplaces had been hardboarded over and painted. On removing the
hardboard every single one had had the gathering smashed into pieces
(where a couple of minutes with a screwdriver would have got them safely
off intact) and the bits left in the firebasket. Even the firebaskets
and brass fireguards were left in place.

I could have cried.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=) Bunny says Windows 7 is Vi$ta reloaded.
(")_(") http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/windows_7.png

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:39:47 -0700 (PDT), Andy Dingley wrote:

Then the dog sniffed the cooker and
screamed the place down.

Always trust a dog's judgement on such things - they have wet noses
and don't wear shoes.

Reminds me of a girlfriend - oh, sorry, nose you said.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd
got a shock of the shower head.

Some years ago my parents found they were getting a tingle off the Aga and
the deep freeze. Turned out my dad had taken the CH thermostat from the
wall when redecorating. Putting it back he'd trapped the neutral conductor
under the edge of the (metal) case of the (ancient) thermostat and created
a N-PE short. And the house was on a TT, the earthing conductor of which
had got snipped sometime earlier.

Just glad he didn't pinch the L conductor instead of the N!

--
John Stumbles

Xenophobia? Sounds a bit foreign to me.

Steve Firth coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

I don't think that's at all accurate. There are a few scholarly studies
of stupidity, they go back to the 1930s. The common conclusion is that
stupidity is with is now and has always been with us.

http://www.gandalf.it/stupid/stupid.htm

Very interesting.

Well, whilst I cannot quantify it, people do seem to be less practical and
generally more helpless these days - which I consider a specialised form of
stupidity. How do you explain that?

When I were a lad in the 70's, most of the men in our section of our road,
rightly or wrongly, would do their own DIY, electrics[1], plumbing and at
least basic car servicing.

[1] OK - at least one of them really shouldn't have, but at least he had a
grasp of the basics and could make things work even though he was a bit of
a dangerous sod.

Cheers

Tim

In message
, Man
at B&Q writes
And preserved all that lovelly panelling under the hardboard. Clever
guy actually!
Yeah, I got some really well preserved 1930's doors from a skip a few
months ago because some makeover obsessed neighbour had decided that
they wanted some panelled doors instead of the flat boring ones in their
new house ;-)

MBQ

--
Clint Sharp

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:01:17 GMT, ARWadsworth wrote:

It would have to be a thick ******* that uses a JB with the Live and
Earth connected into the same terminal to supply power for a new socket.

Hasn't some thick ******* has already done that to create the fault you
have found? A note in the JB is very sensible for the reasons already
posted.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Tim S wrote:

Well, whilst I cannot quantify it, people do seem to be less practical and
generally more helpless these days - which I consider a specialised form of
stupidity. How do you explain that?

I think you're using "stupid" in a different sense. You're using it as a
synonym for inexperienced, unintelligent, ignorant. Stupid seems to be
more generaly accepted as a combination of those things plus the
unwitting tendency to do other people harm.

I think on the Cartesian system discussed by Livraghi there are the
following groups:

People who do good for others while doing no good or even suffering harm
themselves. These people are altruistic possibly even saintly.

People who do good for themselves and for others. These people are
leaders, entrepeneurs.

People who do good for themseles and harm others. These are gangsters
and brigands.

People who harm themselves and others. These people are stupid.


In reality most people move between each of the states depending on
circumstances, chance and necessity. I don't think the people you are
talking about quite make it as stupid, yet.

ARWadsworth wrote:

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a kitchen
worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.


You must be a young man. We had a greenhouse heater that used to do that
all the time. IIRC the mains lead passed trough the metal frame, and the
grommet had collapsed, and eventually it wore through. I would assume
that the earth wire also had fallen off.

This was 1958. When I cleared my mothers house in 2003, it was still in
the garage..

Shocks were something you got. The WORST shock I have EVER had was off a
toy transranformer and a meccano electric motor. I was trying to build a
tram with an overhead wire to pick up the voltage. Well the contact
wasn't good, and when I fiddled with the 'safe' 12v system, I got one
hell of a belt off the inductive flyback of the motor.

I had almost as bad when testing PA amps, and put a probe on the output
whilst and accidentally touched the input.. About 55vAC hum.., Ouch!

Unless you are seriously earthed, touching the mains is not that
dangerous. My father used to use a knuckle - explaining that 'teh muscle
spasm jerks the finger away' - before the days of a neon test
screwdriver. He did get thrown across the room once tho.

John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd
got a shock of the shower head.

Some years ago my parents found they were getting a tingle off the Aga and
the deep freeze. Turned out my dad had taken the CH thermostat from the
wall when redecorating. Putting it back he'd trapped the neutral conductor
under the edge of the (metal) case of the (ancient) thermostat and created
a N-PE short. And the house was on a TT, the earthing conductor of which
had got snipped sometime earlier.

Just glad he didn't pinch the L conductor instead of the N!

Which goes to prove my point that whilst totally 240v live surfaces are
comparatively commonplace, death by them is far far rarer.

Anyone remember old radios and TV sets where the HT was simply a half
wave rectifier off the mains? and the chassis was neutral and there was
no earth? Two wire feed..

Wire THEM up backwards and all the metalwork was live..but I only
noticed when I got a tingle off an oversized grubscrew my father had
reaffixed a bakelite knob with...

Tim S wrote:

People don't have father who do things themselves so much, people are
busier so tend to get a man in for everything beyond nailing a
picture up and I doubt chemistry lessons involve making low to medium
grade explosives (unlike Johnny Gardner's "Christmas specials" bless
him).

People regularly get a man in to hang pictures - I'm glad to say :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Shocks were something you got. The WORST shock I have EVER had was off a
toy transranformer and a meccano electric motor. I was trying to build a
tram with an overhead wire to pick up the voltage. Well the contact
wasn't good, and when I fiddled with the 'safe' 12v system, I got one
hell of a belt off the inductive flyback of the motor.

The most unpleasant I have had is when sitting at the computer listening
to music through headphones, and I reached out to clear a spec of dust
from the screen. I inadvertently discharged the static buildup on the
screen through my ears via the headphones!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd
got a shock of the shower head.

Some years ago my parents found they were getting a tingle off the Aga
and
the deep freeze. Turned out my dad had taken the CH thermostat from the
wall when redecorating. Putting it back he'd trapped the neutral
conductor
under the edge of the (metal) case of the (ancient) thermostat and
created
a N-PE short. And the house was on a TT, the earthing conductor of which
had got snipped sometime earlier.

Just glad he didn't pinch the L conductor instead of the N!

Which goes to prove my point that whilst totally 240v live surfaces are
comparatively commonplace, death by them is far far rarer.

I'm sure that's right. How many of the folk here of a certain age
(that's most of us I would think?!) can honestly say they've never had a
mains shock?

I vividly remember my first time - as you do for many life events...

I was 5 or 6, playing with the mains-powered nightlight in my little
sister's nursery. It had a standard bayonet bulb under a plastic
lift-off wendy-house cover, and had a torpedo switch on the flex, which
in those days had no screws keeping it closed, but was just dismantled
by twisting and unscrewing the whole cover of the switch.

I came across this switch, and predictably enough just unscrewed the
thing 'to see how it worked'. Equally predictably I received I right
old belt up my arm. Wow, so that's what an Electric Shock is...

So what's a 5 or 6 year old boy to do, when he has a little sister to
play with? Yup. "Hey sis, come and touch this it feels really nice".

"Waa-aaa-aaah! - M - uuuu - m - yyyyyyy! - look what he's done now!"
and sure enough I got my second belt of the day.

David

John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd
got a shock of the shower head.

Some years ago my parents found they were getting a tingle off the Aga and
the deep freeze. Turned out my dad had taken the CH thermostat from the
wall when redecorating. Putting it back he'd trapped the neutral conductor
under the edge of the (metal) case of the (ancient) thermostat and created
a N-PE short. And the house was on a TT, the earthing conductor of which
had got snipped sometime earlier.

Just glad he didn't pinch the L conductor instead of the N!


We have a TT connection which was "earthed" via water pipe. Just had a
earth rod and a new consumer unit. Tripping traced to upstairs light
using earth as neutral. Now fixed and the touch sensitive bedside lights
no longer come on occasionally when the bathroom light is turned off.

Tim S wrote:
Archie coughed up some electrons that declared:

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

This weeks Darwin award is for someone that waited 2 years.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Does make you wonder.

I think, to be fair, stupidity is partly a result of our society and
education.

I think the trouble here is someone gets a shock from an appliance, and
thinks 'OK, that was unpleasant, probably best not to do that again' but
no more than that. They have no comprehension that the severity of
future shocks from the same source can vary massively depending on
whether they happen to have rubber-soled shoes, wet hands, have one hand
in the sink and one on the kettle, are standing barefoot in a puddle, or
whatever.

David

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth wrote:

That is scary. Two years worth of 230V live lumps of metal sat on a
kitchen worktop.

She is only alive due to good luck IMHO.

Unless you are seriously earthed, touching the mains is not that
dangerous. My father used to use a knuckle - explaining that 'teh muscle
spasm jerks the finger away' - before the days of a neon test screwdriver.
He did get thrown across the room once tho.

She would have only have to touch the toaster that was plugged into a
correctly working socket 1m away to make a good earth.

I have had my share of belts. The worst was when I was subcontracted out and
I was given that firms worst apprenctice (in his 3rd year) and told to make
sure he got fired for something. Within the hour he energised a lighting
circuit I was working on.

Adam

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
John Stumbles wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:36 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

I got a call from a customer to say that she was getting electric
shocks off her kettle and deep fat frier (both shiney chrome beasts)

About 15 years ago I had a similar call from a friend that said she'd
got a shock of the shower head.

Some years ago my parents found they were getting a tingle off the Aga
and
the deep freeze. Turned out my dad had taken the CH thermostat from the
wall when redecorating. Putting it back he'd trapped the neutral
conductor
under the edge of the (metal) case of the (ancient) thermostat and
created
a N-PE short. And the house was on a TT, the earthing conductor of which
had got snipped sometime earlier.

Just glad he didn't pinch the L conductor instead of the N!

Which goes to prove my point that whilst totally 240v live surfaces are
comparatively commonplace, death by them is far far rarer.

Agreed, but still not desirable in a kitchen.


Anyone remember old radios and TV sets where the HT was simply a half wave
rectifier off the mains? and the chassis was neutral and there was no
earth? Two wire feed..

Wire THEM up backwards and all the metalwork was live..but I only noticed
when I got a tingle off an oversized grubscrew my father had reaffixed a
bakelite knob with...

Too young to remember.

Adam

"Lobster" wrote in message
...


I'm sure that's right. How many of the folk here of a certain age (that's
most of us I would think?!) can honestly say they've never had a mains
shock?

I vividly remember my first time - as you do for many life events...

I was 5 or 6, playing with the mains-powered nightlight in my little
sister's nursery. It had a standard bayonet bulb under a plastic lift-off
wendy-house cover, and had a torpedo switch on the flex, which in those
days had no screws keeping it closed, but was just dismantled by twisting
and unscrewing the whole cover of the switch.

I came across this switch, and predictably enough just unscrewed the thing
'to see how it worked'. Equally predictably I received I right old belt
up my arm. Wow, so that's what an Electric Shock is...

So what's a 5 or 6 year old boy to do, when he has a little sister to play
with? Yup. "Hey sis, come and touch this it feels really nice".

"Waa-aaa-aaah! - M - uuuu - m - yyyyyyy! - look what he's done now!" and
sure enough I got my second belt of the day.

David


LOL.

My first electric shock was when I put the terminals of the transformer from
an electric train set on my tounge. Not mains voltage but it hurt. What else
could I do but call my younger brother over saying "come and taste this".

Adam

Lobster coughed up some electrons that declared:


I think the trouble here is someone gets a shock from an appliance, and
thinks 'OK, that was unpleasant, probably best not to do that again' but
no more than that. They have no comprehension that the severity of
future shocks from the same source can vary massively depending on
whether they happen to have rubber-soled shoes, wet hands, have one hand
in the sink and one on the kettle, are standing barefoot in a puddle, or
whatever.

I think you may have it - but, fundamentally, that is quite
stupid/useless/lack-of-awareness by any definition.

90v batteries, girls +ve, boys -ve, then get them to hold hands, snog,
anything else they dared. That's what they need in 5th form (or whatever
it's called now). They'd soon learn the difference between different
contact scenarios.

I was going to say: next thing will be a house blown up because the
householder noticed a massively strong smell of gas, phoned the gas board,
then sat down to have a fag while waiting.

But it's probably already happened...