http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm

JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm


6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

"Invisible Man" wrote in message
...
JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm
6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of lighting
equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

And the kidnappers pleaded guilty. So there was not much chance of a not
guilty verdict.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5044558/Businessman-spared-jail-for-kidnapping-thief.html

Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...

"Invisible Man" wrote in message
...
JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm
6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

And the kidnappers pleaded guilty. So there was not much chance of a not
guilty verdict.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5044558/Businessman-spared-jail-for-kidnapping-thief.html


When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?

mark

mark wrote:
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...

"Invisible Man" wrote in message
...
JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm
6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported
that they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

And the kidnappers pleaded guilty. So there was not much chance of a
not guilty verdict.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5044558/Businessman-spared-jail-for-kidnapping-thief.html


When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?


This was an absolute godsend for the police.

They didn't have to find the theives; that was done for them and also
getting another successful statistic in kidnapping. Bloody typical. They
should have thanked the two involved and a minor ticking off if they must.

What does it do for Joe Public/ Police relationships?

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:16:11 +0000, Invisible Man wrote:

JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm


6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

Something does not add up.
If they had reported to the police that the crime was in progress and/or
that they had made a citizens' arrest the police would/should have
responded promptly.

The fact that they got a real sentence and not just the suspended one
suggests that there were more facts (not reported) that were taken into
account in this case, by the judge/magistrates.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:16:11 +0000, Invisible Man wrote:

JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm


6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

Something does not add up.
If they had reported to the police that the crime was in progress and/or
that they had made a citizens' arrest the police would/should have
responded promptly.

The fact that they got a real sentence and not just the suspended one
suggests that there were more facts (not reported) that were taken into
account in this case, by the judge/magistrates.

Plod said "it had been established that the intruders had left the scene 20
minutes before the call". Also, "took one offender in a van to the home of
another suspect" isn't just a citizen's arrest, where you hold them and wait
for the police.

Which supports Ed's supposition.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:43:26 -0000, "mark"
wrote:


"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
m...

"Invisible Man" wrote in message
...
JoeJoe wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7962528.stm
6 of them by the look of it:

four people were subsequently dealt with for the initial theft of
lighting equipment from the site.

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

Fortunately we do not have rule by lynch mob.

And the kidnappers pleaded guilty. So there was not much chance of a not
guilty verdict.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5044558/Businessman-spared-jail-for-kidnapping-thief.html


When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?

When they pleaded guilty.
It's quite possible they could have claimed a citizens arrest but
since their brief didn't advise them to take that option I don't think
all the facts have come out. The news report is missing details

"mark" wrote in message
et...

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?

When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Invisible Man
saying something like:

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police

That useless bunch of *******?

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?

When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.

Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police station
or magistrate to face charges.

Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled mess:

http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html

As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a fight
no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used reasonable force
(what ever that is) to hold him, called the police and waited they
probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge. They might have got
unlawful arrest instead...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?
When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.

Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police station
or magistrate to face charges.

Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled mess:

http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html

As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a fight
no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used reasonable force
(what ever that is) to hold him, called the police and waited they
probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge. They might have got
unlawful arrest instead...


OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

Ed Sirett wrote:

Something does not add up.
If they had reported to the police that the crime was in progress
and/or that they had made a citizens' arrest the police would/should
have responded promptly.

The fact that they got a real sentence and not just the suspended one
suggests that there were more facts (not reported) that were taken
into account in this case, by the judge/magistrates.

Very common with newspapers. My daughter was involved in a carbon monoxide
related incident last week. Local press headline was "Were couple
poisoned?" with no mention of carbon monoxide whatsoever. The levels were
so high the ambulance crews were taken in to have their blood levels
checked.

They got the ages of the couple completely wrong and described tubing one
patient & using a machine to take over his breathing as "he was given first
aid". No mention of him being taken to a local hosptal with a hyperbaric
chamber at all.

Would have been a much better story for the paper if they had reported the
actual facts.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Dave wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?
When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.

Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police
station or magistrate to face charges.

Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled
mess: http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html

As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a
fight no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used
reasonable force (what ever that is) to hold him, called the police
and waited they probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge.
They might have got unlawful arrest instead...


OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

As I see it, pretty well any. It gives the Police the chance to gain another
successful prosecution. They do not seem to worry about their repect in the
community. Statistics are what counts, sod reason.

The lack of the Police attending to relevant issues is what causes these
situations. "We'll be round in a couple of days to sort this out." Just the
fuel that causes genuine law abiding wronged citizens to take things "into
their own hands".

We need a major cultural change; getting rid of Police stats. might be one.
Getting rid of the CPS would certainly aid a return to a better society.
That organisation is stuffed full of folk who only have concern for
themselves and ensure that only clear cut cases get to court. Its very
concept at inception was dubious. It means that the honest Joe or minor
transgressor will be hauled before the court but the time served crim who
knows the ropes will not be brought before the court because s/he or the
solicitor knows the caveats that they will get out by. This again winds the
Police up.

The CPS was set up in the 1970s from recollection and we still haven't
learnt what a crass mistake that was.

In message , Dave
writes
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?
When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.
Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police
station or magistrate to face charges.
Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled
mess:
http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html
As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a
fight no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used
reasonable force (what ever that is) to hold him, called the police
and waited they probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge.
They might have got unlawful arrest instead...


OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

E.g.

Situations where say it was deemed that you didn't have grounds for a
reasonable belief that the arrestee had committed an arrestable offence.

Or where the offence is not an 'arrestable offence' - basically one
which the maximum sentence is 5 years imprisonment (though there are
lots of exceptiosn)
--
Chris French

chris French wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?
When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.
Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police
station or magistrate to face charges.
Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled
mess:
http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html
As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a
fight no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used
reasonable force (what ever that is) to hold him, called the police
and waited they probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge.
They might have got unlawful arrest instead...


OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

E.g.

Situations where say it was deemed that you didn't have grounds for a
reasonable belief that the arrestee had committed an arrestable offence.

Or where the offence is not an 'arrestable offence' - basically one
which the maximum sentence is 5 years imprisonment (though there are
lots of exceptiosn)

Remember a case where a fast food chain got sued for arresting someone
who offered a forged note. At that time at least it was not an
arrestable offence.

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 23:04:05 +0000, Dave wrote:

OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

Basically when you make the arrest for a "non-arrestable offence". The
defintion of the latter is "a bit wooly", which is what makes the whole
thing a minefield.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:34:15 +0000, Invisible Man wrote:

chris French wrote:
In message , Dave
writes
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:04:56 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

When does 'citizens arrest' become kidnapping?
When they kidnap them and take them elsewhere.
Well ish, you can make a citizens arrest and take them to a police
station or magistrate to face charges.
Mind you the whole thing around "citizens arrest" is right tangled
mess:
http://www.kevinboone.com/citizens_arrest.html
As these two put one chap in a van took him to his mates then had a
fight no wonder they got done for kidnap. If they just used
reasonable force (what ever that is) to hold him, called the police
and waited they probably wouldn't have attracted the kidnap charge.
They might have got unlawful arrest instead...


OK, I am a bit stupid here. If I use reasonable force to undertake a
citizens arrest, under what conditions can I be charged under unlawful
arrest?

E.g.

Situations where say it was deemed that you didn't have grounds for a
reasonable belief that the arrestee had committed an arrestable offence.

Or where the offence is not an 'arrestable offence' - basically one
which the maximum sentence is 5 years imprisonment (though there are
lots of exceptiosn)

Remember a case where a fast food chain got sued for arresting someone
who offered a forged note. At that time at least it was not an
arrestable offence.

All well and good, but as an average sort of citizen, if I see someone
committing a crime, how the hell am I to know what the current sentencing
guidelines are and what exceptions there are? I probably won't even know
which specific crimes they are commiting, with the wierd and wonderful
system of law that we have.

SteveW

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:36:23 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:

All well and good, but as an average sort of citizen, if I see someone
committing a crime, how the hell am I to know what the current
sentencing guidelines are and what exceptions there are? I probably
won't even know which specific crimes they are commiting, with the wierd
and wonderful system of law that we have.

That's why the best advice is to gather evidence, description, distinctive
features, transport type/make/colours/numbers etc and call the Police to
deal with it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:33:45 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 14:36:23 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:

All well and good, but as an average sort of citizen, if I see someone
committing a crime, how the hell am I to know what the current
sentencing guidelines are and what exceptions there are? I probably
won't even know which specific crimes they are commiting, with the wierd
and wonderful system of law that we have.

That's why the best advice is to gather evidence, description, distinctive
features, transport type/make/colours/numbers etc and call the Police to
deal with it.

....then forget about it, because the police won't do anything...

--
Frank Erskine

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:29:45 +0000, Frank Erskine wrote:

That's why the best advice is to gather evidence, description,
distinctive features, transport type/make/colours/numbers etc and call
the Police to deal with it.

....then forget about it, because the police won't do anything...

But if you don't report they don'y know that they should be doing
something. If you report and get a crime number they have to do something
otherwise their stats start to look bad...

A report of say criminal damage by person or persons unknown doesn't
require instant response from the Police. A report of persons acting
suspiciously inside a building when there shouldn't be any body in that
building does and will more often than not get it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Invisible Man
saying something like:

2 people done for kidnapping. Obviously they should have reported that
they had caught a suspected criminal and contacted the police



That useless bunch of *******?

I think you missed a word out.

You should have said "That useless bunch of bent *******?"

Adam

Dave Liquorice wrote:

But if you don't report they don'y know that they should be doing
something. If you report and get a crime number they have to do something
otherwise their stats start to look bad...

I wish that was true.

I have a strong desire to believe in law and order, however, my limited
experience with the police offers little comfort:-

1) House break-in. Well, sort of, the neighbours reported a suspicious
"drugged up" individual entering my house, whilst I was in. They were
told that "we're changing shifts, so no-one can come down at the
moment". I never got a visit from the police, having chased the wacko
out of the house. The neighbours came around to explain the police
statement sometime after I'd gotten rid of the guy.

2) Car break-in, stolen stereo/MP3 player. I went to report it to the
police station, simply because I thought the police would be interested
in knowing where crime was taking place. The response I got was largely
one of indifference from the desk sergeant, I honestly think he hoped
I'd just walk away. He eventually offered an crime number "for insurance
claim purposes" - which I didn't want or ask for (or use). Several days
later I received a letter from them offering counselling services to
victims of crime. But that was about all that happened. Ho-bloody-hum.

I'd like to respect anyone working to better society, however, as others
have said before, I think police spend more time chasing targets than
criminals.