The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have all
been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from the
hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

Kindest regards,

James

the_constructor wrote:
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have all
been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from the
hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

Kindest regards,

James



I think that a) is the most likely explanation. I don't think there is
much useful thermal energy in drain farts. Routing the condensate pipe
(and trap)internally into another part of the waste system should work
provided that there is no petty fogging regulation against doing it that
way!!
I quite agree that lagging is not the way to stop this.

Bob

"the_constructor" wrote in message
et...
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have
all been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from
the hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

Kindest regards,

James




condensate pipe will flow through even ice. I have had that pipe sticking
out of the wall now for more years than I can remember and never a drop.
Ginge

the_constructor wrote:
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have all
been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from the
hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

The basin pipes etc don't freeze because the water is dumped down them
in batches rather than a trickle. If you were to leave a tap dripping in
a basin you may find a different result.

Most condensing boilers include a concentrate trap that is also designed
to empty periodically rather than in a continuous stream for the same
reason. The open hopper will cool the passing water faster as well.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
the_constructor wrote:
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests
in the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we
have all been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

When you say 'freeze up' do you mean it does actually block? As in, do
you genuinely have a problem... if not, then if it ain't broke, don't
fix it!

The basin pipes etc don't freeze because the water is dumped down them
in batches rather than a trickle. If you were to leave a tap dripping in
a basin you may find a different result.

Most condensing boilers include a concentrate trap that is also designed
to empty periodically rather than in a continuous stream for the same
reason. The open hopper will cool the passing water faster as well.

I agree with that... plus, if you do have a problem then the best way to
resolve it would be to reroute your condensate pipe so it tees into a
waste pipe *inside* the house. I suppose, arguably, if you do have
'trickling' condensate then as John suggests, this might transfer the
problem to the sink(?) waste pipe instead, however due to its larger
diameter it will certainly be less susceptible.

David

Ginge wrote:

condensate pipe will flow through even ice. I have had that pipe
sticking out of the wall now for more years than I can remember and
never a drop.

Your not thinking of the emergency pressure release pipe by any chance
are you?

A condensate pipe would either give a steady stream of water when the
boiler is running, or "batches" of water delivered every so often if the
boiler had a syphonic trap



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
the_constructor wrote:
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have all
been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from the
hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

The basin pipes etc don't freeze because the water is dumped down them
in batches rather than a trickle. If you were to leave a tap dripping in
a basin you may find a different result.

Most condensing boilers include a concentrate trap that is also designed
to empty periodically rather than in a continuous stream for the same
reason. The open hopper will cool the passing water faster as well.

Another factor is that the condensate pipe is usually 21.5mm
(overflow type) pipe, but it's supposed to be 32mm minimum
if routed outdoors. Do you have a run of 21.5mm plastic outdoors?
Sometimes I see this, but it's been protected by 22mm pipe
insulation.

Condensate from my boiler is luke warm, and that seems to prevent
it from freezing. Many years ago, I installed a dehumidifier which
ran permanently with a plumbed-in condensate drain pipe. For this,
I ran a length of resistance wire (in PTFE insulation) along the
inside of the condensate pipe and extending an inch or so from the
end. I ran it from a low voltage AC supply on an outdoor frost stat.
That worked fine. There are more professional equivalents of this
available, but they are not at all cheap (tend to be used on things
like outdoor sprinkler installation pipework).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"the_constructor" wrote in message
et...
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have
all been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from
the hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

My boss had his condensing boiler switched back to a non-condensing, by the
boiler manufacturer, as the condensate pipe run kept on freezing, despite
being the pumped variety. The pipe would block, the boiler flood, which
would immediatly halt, but this repeated happening corroded the inside of
the boiler. Went through 3 boilers in 7 tears, all under warranty, before
switching to non condensing. Apparently a condensing boiler should never
have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish garage, due to having have
a long run of condensate drain pipe. One fix tried was heat tape on the
pipe, but as he found out that was disipating 100W 24/7 and was not pleased
when this was discovered.....

On 9 Feb, 13:05, "Ian_m" wrote:

Apparently a condensing boiler should never
have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish garage, due to having have
a long run of condensate drain pipe.

We had that, fixed it with a small plastic bucket as a tundish
(Farmers' shop calf-feeding bucket - they're thick plastic and pretty
coldproof). If it did freeze, the bucket was several days reserve
capacity.

Another fix is one of those foul drain air admittance valves, with the
flappy plastic bag valves, on the outfall from the condensate drain.
If you can stop air whistling up the pipe, you've solved most of the
freezing problem.

Ian_m wrote:
"the_constructor" wrote in message
et...
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests
in the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we
have all been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the
gasses inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe
from the hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T'
connection and reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of
direct contact with the outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe
to do this, or should I lag the pipe, though I don't think lagging is
the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

My boss had his condensing boiler switched back to a non-condensing, by
the boiler manufacturer, as the condensate pipe run kept on freezing,
despite being the pumped variety. The pipe would block, the boiler
flood, which would immediatly halt, but this repeated happening corroded
the inside of the boiler. Went through 3 boilers in 7 tears, all under
warranty, before switching to non condensing. Apparently a condensing
boiler should never have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish
garage, due to having have a long run of condensate drain pipe. One fix
tried was heat tape on the pipe, but as he found out that was disipating
100W 24/7 and was not pleased when this was discovered.....

Might have been simpler to put a thermostat on the heat tape so it was
only on in frosty conditions.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...

Another fix is one of those foul drain air admittance valves, with the
flappy plastic bag valves, on the outfall from the condensate drain.
If you can stop air whistling up the pipe, you've solved most of the
freezing problem.

Yes. A HepVo trap near the end of the condensate pipe run that stops -0C air
running up the pipe, and heavily insulate the condensate pipe and trap.
Replacing a condensing boiler was far too drastic. Appears the boilers
makers knowledge doesn't stretch to pragmatic installations.

Also 32mm pipe must be used where there is a possibility of freezing, or run
outside.

On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:05:55 -0000, "Ian_m"
wrote:

"the_constructor" wrote in message
net...
The condensate pipe on my combi boiler comes out of the wall and rests in
the hopper of a downpipe but with this rather cold weather that we have
all been having, it has tended to freeze up quite a bit.

This got me to thinking.

The basin and bath waste pipes never seem to freeze up and these are
directly into the soil pipe. I assume, rightly or wrongly that this is
because (a) the ubends are inside the house and (b) because of the gasses
inside the soil pipe come up into the waste pipes.

Working on theory (b), would it help if I take the condensate pipe from
the hopper and feed it into the bath waste pipe using a 'T' connection and
reducing plug thereby keeping the open end out of direct contact with the
outside air. I have plenty of drop on the pipe to do this, or should I lag
the pipe, though I don't think lagging is the answer.

Your thoughts as always would be most gratefully appreciated.

My boss had his condensing boiler switched back to a non-condensing, by the
boiler manufacturer, as the condensate pipe run kept on freezing, despite
being the pumped variety. The pipe would block, the boiler flood, which
would immediatly halt, but this repeated happening corroded the inside of
the boiler. Went through 3 boilers in 7 tears, all under warranty, before
switching to non condensing. Apparently a condensing boiler should never
have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish garage, due to having have
a long run of condensate drain pipe. One fix tried was heat tape on the
pipe, but as he found out that was disipating 100W 24/7 and was not pleased
when this was discovered.....

The guy who fixed my combi had a look into installing a condensing
boiler in it's place. The nearest drain was about 3.5 metres away and
he reckoned that was too far for an external run with the risk of
freezing up. He advised fitting another more up to date combi but as
the old one is still going strong after £400 of repairs over 5 years I
think we'll wait until it dies.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb, 13:05, "Ian_m" wrote:

Apparently a condensing boiler should never
have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish garage, due to having
have
a long run of condensate drain pipe.

We had that, fixed it with a small plastic bucket as a tundish
(Farmers' shop calf-feeding bucket - they're thick plastic and pretty
coldproof). If it did freeze, the bucket was several days reserve
capacity.

Another fix is one of those foul drain air admittance valves, with the
flappy plastic bag valves, on the outfall from the condensate drain.
If you can stop air whistling up the pipe, you've solved most of the
freezing problem.

I think the boiler was fitted to a wall in the garage connected to the house
via a short un heated corridor, fitted with worktop and storage units, with
the gas and water pipes connecting via the tiled roof space. I suspect this
is just a "standard plan" house originally design for non-condensing
boilers.

The boiler condensate pipe left the garage and went along the outside of the
unheated corridor to a foul water drain, probably a run of over 5m +
numerous bends. It was apparently originally in 19mm plastic which froze the
first winter in the house, flooding the boiler and corroding the internals.
This freezing happened each winter only when wind was blowing in certain
direction. Boiler was under British Gas maintainance who by the time they
turned up the drain pipe had thawed, just drained the inside of the boiler.

In its 2nd year the boiler failed due to internal corrosion due to repeated
flooding and the house builder replaced the boiler and changed overflow to
32mm pipe run. This again froze a couple of years later, this time builders
didn't want to know, BG wouldn't service until freezing over flow fixed.
Local plumber fitted 100W of heat tape to overflow pipes, BG again fixed the
flooded boiler. Again bolier failed this time corroded ignition contacts due
to previous flooding, BG wouldn't repair stating "it had been incorrectly
fitted allowing it to flood" and wanted £2300 for new boiler (only 4 years
old at this stage). After much fighting between BG and boiler manufacturer,
boiler manufacturer supplied a non condensing version of the boiler, after
having admitting fault that the boiler should never have flooded even if the
drain pipe was blocked.

Non condensing boiler was fitted and my boss has had no issues for the last
5 years.

On 9 Feb, 14:04, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

A HepVo trap near the end of the condensate pipe run that stops -0C air
running up the pipe,

That's the beastie

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb, 14:04, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

A HepVo trap near the end of the condensate
pipe run that stops -0C air running up the pipe,

That's the beastie

If exposed to freezing air any moisture on the trap membrane could freeze
and then another blockage. They are best in a position where they are
unlikely to freeze and fitted vertically.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 9 Feb, 13:05, "Ian_m" wrote:

Apparently a condensing boiler should never
have been fitted in this location, a detached'ish garage, due to having
have
a long run of condensate drain pipe.

We had that, fixed it with a small plastic bucket as a tundish
(Farmers' shop calf-feeding bucket - they're thick plastic and pretty
coldproof). If it did freeze, the bucket was several days reserve
capacity.

Another fix is one of those foul drain air admittance valves, with the
flappy plastic bag valves, on the outfall from the condensate drain.
If you can stop air whistling up the pipe, you've solved most of the
freezing problem.

What usually happens is residual water at the bottom of the pipe freezes, he
next batch of condensate runs over this ice and some stays. That freezes.
Then there is a build up of ice in the pipe. If there is drip it will
freeze up, as happens to dripping Pressure Relief Valve pipes. Then the
boiler blows the expansion vessel.

To prevent condensation on water pipes which can be a source of moisture
particularly in winter months is to cover the water pipes with an insulated
pipe wrap, these are relatively cheap and are an easy w3ay to prevent
moisture dripping of the pipes and onto the floor.Installation of a basement
dehumidifier can prevent this problem from occurring and remove excess
moisture, just make sure you have a drain available in order to take away
the excess water gathered by the dehumidifier otherwise you may have to
purchase a dehumidifier with a hose pipe and pump.


______________
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