I
MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for a
particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards as
used in the target country.

However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet - at
least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where this
consideration will need to be taken account of.

Don't you consider the current Freeview and Freesat transmissions are
digital all the way ?..

Albeit with some digits getting lost along that way;!...

--
Tony Sayer

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

I said I worked with BBC Technology.

Whatever.

Note the careful use of 'with'.
Probably a burger fetcher.

With as in a joint development.
I had over £20 million pounds worth of kit to play with at one time,
only £1 million was supplied by the BBC BTW.
The little CRT monitors were cr@p BTW.
You should have seen the range of stuff..
stuff to demultiplex streams, stuff to code streams, stuff to
remultiplex streams, SDI to TCP, switches, loads of test gear and
quality monitoring stuff.
You would have liked it and may have learnt some stuff.
The project was canned before we got as far as a play out suit which
was a shame.


Translation

They cut their losses and removed Dennis from the project before Dennis
could **** up any more ...


--
geoff

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:58:30 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Who knows, if you actually examine the histogram you might be able to
capture highlights and shadows.

Not if they are below black level or above peak white.

Bloody engineers, haven't a clue how the real world works.

Many of them forget (or were never taught) that the PAL modulation
limits the range of legal (and hence broadcastable) colour values to a
much smaller gamut than that which can be produced by the RGB camera or
shown by a display device.

Which you don't need when its digital all the way.
After all MPEG doesn't have the concept of PAL or NTSC.
Come to think of it I don't think SDI does either.

MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for a
particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards as
used in the target country.

Only because they have to cater for cr@p CRTs.


However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet -

I have it, it must exist.
My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

at least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where this
consideration will need to be taken account of.

As I said before, dinosaurs.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to call people with a greater breadth
of experience than yourself dinosaurs.

Well you are behaving like one.

I wonder if you will be extinct when there are *no* PAL broadcasts after
analogue is turned off?

Me? Let's hope not, but who knows.

How old are you Dennis, out of interest?

Why does that matter? 21 base 26 as it happens, I will be 20 next year.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
Note the careful use of 'with'.
Probably a burger fetcher.

With as in a joint development. I had over £20 million pounds worth of
kit to play with at one time, only £1 million was supplied by the BBC
BTW. The little CRT monitors were cr@p BTW.

Heh heh - you think they are all the same?

If you knew anything about broadcast you'd know they're graded. Grade 1 is
used for racks. Since they cost a fortune you'd not see them where not
actually required.

Oh they were supposed to be good uns and they cost a lot (about £3k I was
told), still cr@p.

In article , geoff
scribeth thus
In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

I said I worked with BBC Technology.

Whatever.

Note the careful use of 'with'.
Probably a burger fetcher.

With as in a joint development.
I had over £20 million pounds worth of kit to play with at one time,
only £1 million was supplied by the BBC BTW.
The little CRT monitors were cr@p BTW.
You should have seen the range of stuff..
stuff to demultiplex streams, stuff to code streams, stuff to
remultiplex streams, SDI to TCP, switches, loads of test gear and
quality monitoring stuff.
You would have liked it and may have learnt some stuff.
The project was canned before we got as far as a play out suit which
was a shame.


Translation

They cut their losses and removed Dennis from the project before Dennis
could **** up any more ...



LOL!.....
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
I
MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for a
particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards as
used in the target country.

However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet - at
least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where this
consideration will need to be taken account of.

Don't you consider the current Freeview and Freesat transmissions are
digital all the way ?..

They are, but they are simulcast with the PAL analogue version as well.
So the requirements for setting broadcast levels still apply.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...


They are, but they are simulcast with the PAL analogue version as well. So
the requirements for setting broadcast levels still apply.

But where.. its digital all the way to the transmitter.
Then it is split into analogue and digital.

Of course some are never transmitted in analogue like most of Sky.

dennis@home wrote:

Which you don't need when its digital all the way.
After all MPEG doesn't have the concept of PAL or NTSC.
Come to think of it I don't think SDI does either.

MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for
a particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards
as used in the target country.

Only because they have to cater for cr@p CRTs.

I think you will find that there are standardised resolutions and frame
rates used regardless of the display technology - not only CRT (crap or
otherwise).

However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet -

I have it, it must exist.
My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

That is not a broadcast, or in a format that remains backward compatible
with analogue PAL reception equipment however. A requirement that
applies to all terrestrial TV output carried simultaneously on analogue
and digital platforms at this time.

at least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where
this consideration will need to be taken account of.

As I said before, dinosaurs.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to call people with a greater
breadth of experience than yourself dinosaurs.

Well you are behaving like one.

How?

My contribution to this (display technology related) sub thread has so
far has been to provide an explanation of why colour gamut varies
between different display technologies and print output, and to
highlight that the colour gamut of a broadcast via PAL is a subset of
the typically used RGB colourspace in the digital domain.

I fail to see how that makes me a dinosaur. Was it perhaps that I did
not jump to support your assertion that CRTs are inferior to LCDs?

I wonder if you will be extinct when there are *no* PAL broadcasts
after analogue is turned off?

Me? Let's hope not, but who knows.

How old are you Dennis, out of interest?

Why does that matter? 21 base 26 as it happens, I will be 20 next year.

So your base is increasing with age then? Alas it happens to many of us.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:07:26 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Oh they were supposed to be good uns and they cost a lot (about £3k I
was told), still cr@p.

Did anyone on the team know how to line them up? Indeed were they ever
lined up? Who had the spot meter and PLUGE?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:55 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

How does your display generate its range of colours? By having various set
levels for each of R, G & B pixels for each triad. Looks a bit analogue to
me but worse than analogue as you can't have a true graduation as you only
have set levels available for each colour. If you interpolate of filter to
produce a smooth graduation bang goes the "entirely digital" claim.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
dennis@home wrote:

Which you don't need when its digital all the way.
After all MPEG doesn't have the concept of PAL or NTSC.
Come to think of it I don't think SDI does either.

MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for a
particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards as
used in the target country.

Only because they have to cater for cr@p CRTs.

I think you will find that there are standardised resolutions and frame
rates used regardless of the display technology - not only CRT (crap or
otherwise).

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have the
same restrictions.

However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet -

I have it, it must exist.
My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

That is not a broadcast, or in a format that remains backward compatible
with analogue PAL reception equipment however. A requirement that applies
to all terrestrial TV output carried simultaneously on analogue and
digital platforms at this time.

Of course it is backwards compatible with PAL, the camera even has a PAL
output.
It may throw away most of the detail and add loads PAL artifacts but if
that's what people want..


at least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where this
consideration will need to be taken account of.

As I said before, dinosaurs.

Not quite sure why you feel the need to call people with a greater
breadth of experience than yourself dinosaurs.

Well you are behaving like one.

How?

My contribution to this (display technology related) sub thread has so far
has been to provide an explanation of why colour gamut varies between
different display technologies and print output, and to highlight that the
colour gamut of a broadcast via PAL is a subset of the typically used RGB
colourspace in the digital domain.

I fail to see how that makes me a dinosaur. Was it perhaps that I did not
jump to support your assertion that CRTs are inferior to LCDs?

No, your vain attempt to say they are better because some people insist on
using them to setup cameras.
Probably just because this is how they have always done it.

I wonder if you will be extinct when there are *no* PAL broadcasts
after analogue is turned off?

Me? Let's hope not, but who knows.

How old are you Dennis, out of interest?

Why does that matter? 21 base 26 as it happens, I will be 20 next year.

So your base is increasing with age then? Alas it happens to many of us.

I hope the wii fit will help.

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:06:14 +0000, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
I said I worked with BBC Technology.

Whatever.

Note the careful use of 'with'.

"Found a BBC micro on Freecycle once"

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:59:57 UTC, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have the
same restrictions.

What's a "CRT tube"?

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

dennis@home wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
dennis@home wrote:

Which you don't need when its digital all the way.
After all MPEG doesn't have the concept of PAL or NTSC.
Come to think of it I don't think SDI does either.

MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded
for a particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC
standards as used in the target country.

Only because they have to cater for cr@p CRTs.

I think you will find that there are standardised resolutions and
frame rates used regardless of the display technology - not only CRT
(crap or otherwise).

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have
the same restrictions.

Most CRT TVs were based on previous frame rates etc for the same reason
that colour was designed to be backward compatible with old monochrome
broadcast standards, i.e reasons of acceptance, and adoption.

There is no reason that CRT technology can't be used at other refresh
rates and scan patterns - including HD. Most CRT computer monitors run
at scan rates and resolutions way in excess of TV broadcast ones - so
its not a technology limitation. Multi scanning CRT Monitors tend to be
far more flexible in the range of signal specs they will accept, and
unlike LCDs are able to display a high quality image from any of them,
not just one that matches their native resolution.


My contribution to this (display technology related) sub thread has so
far has been to provide an explanation of why colour gamut varies
between different display technologies and print output, and to
highlight that the colour gamut of a broadcast via PAL is a subset of
the typically used RGB colourspace in the digital domain.

I fail to see how that makes me a dinosaur. Was it perhaps that I did
not jump to support your assertion that CRTs are inferior to LCDs?

No, your vain attempt to say they are better because some people insist
on using them to setup cameras.

My vain attempt?

Firstly I think you will find I have not made any statement along the
lines "they are better because". You may find I said that generalised
statements are inappropriate, and each situation should be judged on its
merits.

Secondly, never having worked in a broadcast TV environment I am not it
a position to comment on what is or is not best practice with regards to
camera matching etc. However if people with real experience of these
things tell me that there are times where a CRT is better for a
particular job, I am quite happy to accept that. My experience, having
used a very wide range of LCDs and top end CRTs over the years, is that
there are some tasks batter suited to one rather than the other.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet - at
least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where
this consideration will need to be taken account of.

Don't you consider the current Freeview and Freesat transmissions are
digital all the way ?..

Depends on the source. Quite a bit of analogue gear still in use,
especially for news, etc. And outside broadcasts.

--
*It's not hard to meet expenses... they're everywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
No, your vain attempt to say they are better because some people insist
on using them to setup cameras. Probably just because this is how they
have always done it.

When will you get it into your thick head that everyone in broadcasting
would be delighted if a suitable LCD etc monitor was available? They have
lots of advantages. Unfortunately picture quality ain't one of them.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , John Rumm
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
I
MPEG has some concept of video standard in that it will be encoded for a
particular resolution and frame rate to match PAL or NTSC standards as
used in the target country.

However, the option of "digital all the way" does not exist yet - at
least until analogue transmissions cease. Even then there will be
countless RF based distribution systems already installed for where this
consideration will need to be taken account of.

Don't you consider the current Freeview and Freesat transmissions are
digital all the way ?..

They are, but they are simulcast with the PAL analogue version as well.
So the requirements for setting broadcast levels still apply.



Yeabut the Pal signal is derived from digital decoders at the TX albeit
there're fed at some 34 M/bits ;!..
--
Tony Sayer

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:53:36 UTC, Huge wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:15:56 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:59:57 UTC, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have
the same restrictions.

What's a "CRT tube"?

As used by the BBC Corporation to display TV vision.

I thought the BBC tried to avoid tautology.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
You'll have to add in all those who's job it is to set up TV cameras,
then, for the pictures you watch at home. CRTs are still the only real
option for this.

Rubbish, you could set them up using the histograms without any need to
see a picture.

Thanks for displaying your lack of knowledge about this too.

You know Dave, I read that comment from him briefly and though to myself
"That's the sort of crap old Foggy would spout." Then I looked and that's
who it was!.

Maybe he should get a job on the stage? Sweeping it? :-)

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

In article , Bob Eager
wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:59:57 UTC, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have the
same restrictions.

What's a "CRT tube"?

It's what your PIN number would be displayed on. :-)

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:30:52 UTC, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
wrote:

In article , Bob Eager
wrote:
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:59:57 UTC, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have the
same restrictions.

What's a "CRT tube"?

It's what your PIN number would be displayed on. :-)

I thought that was an LCD display!

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:07:26 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

Oh they were supposed to be good uns and they cost a lot (about £3k I
was told), still cr@p.

Did anyone on the team know how to line them up? Indeed were they ever
lined up? Who had the spot meter and PLUGE?

The BBC were responsible for that kit.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:55 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

How does your display generate its range of colours? By having various set
levels for each of R, G & B pixels for each triad. Looks a bit analogue to
me but worse than analogue as you can't have a true graduation as you only
have set levels available for each colour. If you interpolate of filter to
produce a smooth graduation bang goes the "entirely digital" claim.

Analogue is digital anyway, you can only have intensity in multiples of
photons.
So bang goes your analogue.

In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.net...
On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:04:55 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

My own video camera to DVD to TV is entirely digital (even the light is
digital, photons being digital).

How does your display generate its range of colours? By having various set
levels for each of R, G & B pixels for each triad. Looks a bit analogue to
me but worse than analogue as you can't have a true graduation as you only
have set levels available for each colour. If you interpolate of filter to
produce a smooth graduation bang goes the "entirely digital" claim.

Analogue is digital anyway, you can only have intensity in multiples of
photons.
So bang goes your analogue.

Dennis hits the endstop on the track to absurdity

Just another example of his inability to keep a sense of proportion

--
geoff

dennis@home wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...


They are, but they are simulcast with the PAL analogue version as
well. So the requirements for setting broadcast levels still apply.

But where.. its digital all the way to the transmitter.
Then it is split into analogue and digital.


I was impressed by the beginning of "The History of Scotland" the other
day, watching on analogue. It started in 16:9 letterbox (or maybe even
more - I didn't measure) for the landscapes etc. in the early sequences,
then the picture "grew" vertically over about 30 seconds (presumably by
cropping the edges) up to a 14:9 ratio. very smoothly too.

So someone still cares.

Andy

On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:50:19 +0000, Andy Champ wrote:


I was impressed by the beginning of "The History of Scotland" the other
day, watching on analogue. It started in 16:9 letterbox (or maybe even
more - I didn't measure) for the landscapes etc. in the early sequences,
then the picture "grew" vertically over about 30 seconds (presumably by
cropping the edges) up to a 14:9 ratio. very smoothly too.

So someone still cares.

Its quite common for the titles to be letterboxed, they might not fit if
they aren't.


Andy

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:15:56 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:59:57 UTC, "dennis@home"
wrote:

Yes but they are based on old CRT tubes as LCD and plasma do not have the
same restrictions.

What's a "CRT tube"?

Well "CRTT" just sounds silly, doesn't it - plus then someone would go and
invent a CRTT tube. It'd never end.

(Maybe they should have been CRVs in the UK, anyway)