We are planning to 'move' our kitchen by converting a built-in garage into a
kitchen (we now have a sparate detached garage).

This will involve a lot of electrics - including new radial circuits for
cooker etc. I intend to get someone who can provide Part-P certification to
do this because, although I could install something which is perfectly safe
by any reasonable standards, I'm not fully up to speed with 17th Edition
stuff, and what I did may not comply!

The question is, what will the electrician actually test and sign off in
respect of wiring for fixed appliances? For example, in the case of cooker
wiring, will he simply test as far as the wall outlet, leaving others -
possibly me - to make the final connection of the aplliance, or would he be
unable to sign it off until the appliance is physically in place and until
he personally has connected it? If the latter, what would he actually be
testing which couldn't be tested without the appliance being there?

Obviously with ordinary 13A socket outlets, he can only test as far as the
socket - and will have no control over what is subsequently plugged into it.
Is fixed appliance wiring any different and, if so, why?

I ask because the people who may supply and install the kitchen equipment
are saying that I will need to get the electrician back to connect the
appliances. Are they right?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored..
Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks. PLEASE REPLY TO
NEWSGROUP!

Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

We are planning to 'move' our kitchen by converting a built-in garage into
a kitchen (we now have a sparate detached garage).

This will involve a lot of electrics - including new radial circuits for
cooker etc. I intend to get someone who can provide Part-P certification
to do this because, although I could install something which is perfectly
safe by any reasonable standards, I'm not fully up to speed with 17th
Edition stuff, and what I did may not comply!

Hi,

I think a reasonable summary of changes would be:

30mA RCD protection of all circuits with a 13A socket (inc cooker if
applicable)

30mA RCD protection of all cables unless buried deep or mechanically
protected.

In short, stick an RCD on everything.

Volt drops have changed, being 3% of nominal voltage (230V) for lighting and
5% for everything else, but that's unlikely to affect you.

There are new tables for T+E cables buried in insulation in ceilings which
may be helpful - a copy of the OnSite Guide would be worth the money.

The question is, what will the electrician actually test and sign off in
respect of wiring for fixed appliances? For example, in the case of
cooker wiring, will he simply test as far as the wall outlet, leaving
others - possibly me - to make the final connection of the aplliance, or
would he be unable to sign it off until the appliance is physically in
place and until he personally has connected it? If the latter, what would
he actually be testing which couldn't be tested without the appliance
being there?

To test a cooker circuit, they'll generally need to isolate the cooker:

a) As its presence will mess up continuity tests;
b) To protect the cooker when doing L-N 500V tests[1]

[1] There is a way to avoid this by doing LN-E tests only (L strapped to
N) - it's not as thorough, but sometimes it's more practical than removing
all the offending items, eg in a lighting circuit full of dimmers.

So I don't see that having no cooker will invalidate the tests.

Obviously with ordinary 13A socket outlets, he can only test as far as the
socket - and will have no control over what is subsequently plugged into
it. Is fixed appliance wiring any different and, if so, why?

I ask because the people who may supply and install the kitchen equipment
are saying that I will need to get the electrician back to connect the
appliances. Are they right?

I don't know if, pedantically, a cooker final connection counts as
notifiable, but personally I'd just say ******** and do it anyway. Do you
want to call an electrician or pay a BNA fee everytime you want to remove
and replace the cooker?

I take the same view with ELV circuits in notifiable areas (that includes
phones lines and computer networking).

HTH

Tim

On 12 Dec, 12:27, Tim S wrote:
Roger Mills coughed up some electrons that declared:

We are planning to 'move' our kitchen by converting a built-in garage into
a kitchen (we now have a sparate detached garage).

This will involve a lot of electrics - including new radial circuits for
cooker etc. I intend to get someone who can provide Part-P certification
to do this because, although I could install something which is perfectly
safe by any reasonable standards, I'm not fully up to speed with 17th
Edition stuff, and what I did may not comply!

Hi,

I think a reasonable summary of changes would be:

30mA RCD protection of all circuits with a 13A socket (inc cooker if
applicable)

30mA RCD protection of all cables unless buried deep or mechanically
protected.

In short, stick an RCD on everything.

Volt drops have changed, being 3% of nominal voltage (230V) for lighting and
5% for everything else, but that's unlikely to affect you.

There are new tables for T+E cables buried in insulation in ceilings which
may be helpful - a copy of the OnSite Guide would be worth the money.

The question is, what will the electrician actually test and sign off in
respect of wiring for fixed appliances? For *example, in the case of
cooker wiring, will he simply test as far as the wall outlet, leaving
others - possibly me - to make the final connection of the aplliance, or
would he be unable to sign it off until the appliance is physically in
place and until he personally has connected it? If the latter, what would
he actually be testing which couldn't be tested without the appliance
being there?

To test a cooker circuit, they'll generally need to isolate the cooker:

a) As its presence will mess up continuity tests;
b) To protect the cooker when doing L-N 500V tests[1]

[1] There is a way to avoid this by doing LN-E tests only (L strapped to
N) - it's not as thorough, but sometimes it's more practical than removing
all the offending items, eg in a lighting circuit full of dimmers.

So I don't see that having no cooker will invalidate the tests.

Obviously with ordinary 13A socket outlets, he can only test as far as the
socket - and will have no control over what is subsequently plugged into
it. Is fixed appliance wiring any different and, if so, why?

I ask because the people who may supply and install the kitchen equipment
are saying that I will need to get the electrician back to connect the
appliances. Are they right?

I don't know if, pedantically, a cooker final connection counts as
notifiable, but personally I'd just say ******** and do it anyway. Do you
want to call an electrician or pay a BNA fee everytime you want to remove
and replace the cooker?

I take the same view with ELV circuits in notifiable areas (that includes
phones lines and computer networking).

HTH

Tim

Just a thought but is there an issue here with the point at which the
room becomes a kitchen? Some might argue that until it contains a
cooker, units etc, it's just a room, which must have some bearing on
the Part Pee status in terms of what you can do yourself.

Not that I would ever dream of subverting such an important and well
thought out piece of legislation....

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
GMM wrote:


Just a thought but is there an issue here with the point at which the
room becomes a kitchen? Some might argue that until it contains a
cooker, units etc, it's just a room, which must have some bearing on
the Part Pee status in terms of what you can do yourself.

Not that I would ever dream of subverting such an important and well
thought out piece of legislation....

Interesting thought - but I doubt whether it would work.

I'm sure there will be a requirement somewhere or other which says that if
you convert a room into a kitchen, the electrics must be updated to the
latest spec for kitchens!

The project includes some building work which is subject to Building Regs,
so the electrical part will be included in that, and I can't just ignore it.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
We are planning to 'move' our kitchen by converting a built-in garage into
a
kitchen (we now have a sparate detached garage).

This will involve a lot of electrics - including new radial circuits for
cooker etc. I intend to get someone who can provide Part-P certification
to
do this because, although I could install something which is perfectly
safe
by any reasonable standards, I'm not fully up to speed with 17th Edition
stuff, and what I did may not comply!

The question is, what will the electrician actually test and sign off in
respect of wiring for fixed appliances? For example, in the case of
cooker
wiring, will he simply test as far as the wall outlet, leaving others -
possibly me - to make the final connection of the aplliance, or would he
be
unable to sign it off until the appliance is physically in place and until
he personally has connected it? If the latter, what would he actually be
testing which couldn't be tested without the appliance being there?

The electrician will check as far as the wall plate and does not need to see
a cooker.
You can connect that up yourself.

On a similar line, an electrician may supply a fused spur for an extractor
hood, but the person that actually fits and connects the hood to the fused
spur need not be an electrician.

Obviously with ordinary 13A socket outlets, he can only test as far as the
socket - and will have no control over what is subsequently plugged into
it.
Is fixed appliance wiring any different and, if so, why?


I ask because the people who may supply and install the kitchen equipment
are saying that I will need to get the electrician back to connect the
appliances. Are they right?

No. They are talking ********.

A lot of kitchen fitters use part P to do less work. eg they pretend that it
illegal for them to connect the cooker and fan up etc. Less work for the
same money.

Adam

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:24:42 +0000, ARWadsworth wrote:

"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
We are planning to 'move' our kitchen by converting a built-in garage
into
a
kitchen (we now have a sparate detached garage).

This will involve a lot of electrics - including new radial circuits
for cooker etc. I intend to get someone who can provide Part-P
certification
to
do this because, although I could install something which is perfectly
safe
by any reasonable standards, I'm not fully up to speed with 17th
Edition stuff, and what I did may not comply!

The question is, what will the electrician actually test and sign off
in respect of wiring for fixed appliances? For example, in the case of
cooker
wiring, will he simply test as far as the wall outlet, leaving others -
possibly me - to make the final connection of the aplliance, or would
he
be
unable to sign it off until the appliance is physically in place and
until he personally has connected it? If the latter, what would he
actually be testing which couldn't be tested without the appliance
being there?

The electrician will check as far as the wall plate and does not need to
see a cooker.
You can connect that up yourself.

On a similar line, an electrician may supply a fused spur for an
extractor hood, but the person that actually fits and connects the hood
to the fused spur need not be an electrician.

Obviously with ordinary 13A socket outlets, he can only test as far as
the socket - and will have no control over what is subsequently plugged
into
it.
Is fixed appliance wiring any different and, if so, why?


I ask because the people who may supply and install the kitchen
equipment are saying that I will need to get the electrician back to
connect the appliances. Are they right?

No. They are talking ********.

A lot of kitchen fitters use part P to do less work. eg they pretend
that it illegal for them to connect the cooker and fan up etc. Less work
for the same money.

Quite probably.
Nevetheless, by the book, the installation of a fixed heat producing
appliance in a kitchen would be notifiable.

If you want all the paper work, ask the electrician to self-certify the
whole lot including the cooker install as one notification at the end.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html