On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:14:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Wanderer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:08:37 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .


I had to attend two or three fatalities where people had been doing
electrically unsafe things. It isn't a nice experience.
Two or three?
I think I would know exactly how many.

Two were electrical, one was a sparky with many years experience trying to
complete work at the distribution point of a small industrial unit whilst
keeping supply on so the place could keep working.

Another was a householder who chopped through the cable on his lawnmower
and apparently picked up the ends of the cable without first switching off.

Both of which prove that people really do the most stupid things, and which
could apply in the scenario under discussion.

The third was presumed electrical until the fire brigade could recover the
body when it was found to be non-electrical.

A fourth, which wasn't at all relevant to this discussion was some
contractors moving equipment at a grain store using a fork lift, straight
into an 11kv o/h line.

Oh and that has excluded the couple of times I had to visit fire scenes to
try and ascertain if there was an electrical cause.

None of them were pleasant experiences.

Have I made myself clear enough now?

Well I have seen..two fatalities from road accidents.


Should we advise people that driving cars is really stupid and dangerous?

It isn't the driving that's stupid and dangerous, it's the drivers......

--
The Wanderer

Faith is a gift from your God
Religion is a gift from the Devil

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:29:07 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:

Okay, you tell me what might happen at the *OPs* end of the wire other
than a blown fuse.

Tim

A court case?

A lifelong guilty conscience?

PCPaul wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:29:07 +0000, Tim Downie wrote:

Okay, you tell me what might happen at the *OPs* end of the wire other
than a blown fuse.

Tim

A court case?

A lifelong guilty conscience?

yes, its already been stated clearly: gross financial loss if the
place burns and insurance wont pay, the risk of prison, and other more
minor things. Some folk seem to imagine that a 13A fuse has the
ability to limit the current to 13A - thats a long way from true.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
John wrote:
"Rod" wrote in message
...
TheOldFellow wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 02:12:01 -0000
"Gordy" wrote:

My sparky mate used to work on disconnected council houses, generator
outside, plug to plug extension and power all over the house with no
mucking about with trailing leads.
He's not the sharpest tool in the box (sorry Barry) but he's still
alive.
What a pity.
R.

Rather agree. But it did have the singular advanatge that a gennie makes
some noise and would eventually run out of fuel! A 13A-to-13A plug lead is
silent and would be much more likely to catch the unwary.

If the company fuse is out, there is no certainty whatsoever that the
installation is itself safe in any way. Making it live is simply queueing
for a Darwin award.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org
If the fuse is out on the Live (line) conductor (neutral still connected)
and the wiring to this dangerous 13amp plug is back to front then this will
introduce another danger I think.



The happiest Darwin scenario is if no fuses are out and the two flats
are on different phases ;-)

naa, thats a relatively small safety issue. Fuse goes bang, end of.
Both neutrals will be at or very close to 0v.


If they haven't cross wired the rings!
This is a competition to find the 'chernobyl' combination of utter
stupidity and failure to follow procedure, and get the worst result.

If they have then the 13A fuse goes pop, thats all. ITs sustained
overload thats the problem, not short circuit current.


NT

The Wanderer wrote:
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 11:14:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Wanderer wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:08:37 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .


I had to attend two or three fatalities where people had been doing
electrically unsafe things. It isn't a nice experience.
Two or three?
I think I would know exactly how many.
Two were electrical, one was a sparky with many years experience trying to
complete work at the distribution point of a small industrial unit whilst
keeping supply on so the place could keep working.

Another was a householder who chopped through the cable on his lawnmower
and apparently picked up the ends of the cable without first switching off.

Both of which prove that people really do the most stupid things, and which
could apply in the scenario under discussion.

The third was presumed electrical until the fire brigade could recover the
body when it was found to be non-electrical.

A fourth, which wasn't at all relevant to this discussion was some
contractors moving equipment at a grain store using a fork lift, straight
into an 11kv o/h line.

Oh and that has excluded the couple of times I had to visit fire scenes to
try and ascertain if there was an electrical cause.

None of them were pleasant experiences.

Have I made myself clear enough now?

Well I have seen..two fatalities from road accidents.


Should we advise people that driving cars is really stupid and dangerous?

It isn't the driving that's stupid and dangerous, it's the drivers......

My point exactly. It isn't the two plugs on a cable thats dangerous, its
the idiot who plugs it in without ensuring that its safe to do so, and
forgets that he has..

Owain wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well I have seen..two fatalities from road accidents.
Should we advise people that driving cars is really stupid and dangerous?

It is.

It kills and injures thousands every year, pollutes the environment, and
is a massive economic cost.

However most people and governments decide that is outweighed by the
personal, social and economic benefits of ready availability of
individual motorised transport.

There is very rarely a corresponding benefit to working on energised
systems, which is why it's only done under limited and usually
tightly-controlled circumstances.


preciseley. Its not the technique that is dangerous per se, its the
application. And a risk/benefit shows its usually needless, but things
that are occasionally useful and very occasionbally necesary, shouldn't
be banned.


Owain

Cost benefit analysis.

Possible costs have already been discussed.

Is the benefit to the OP (a few quid off the power bill) worth the risks?

IMHO the builder should arrange a supply. Leccy boards do them all the
time.

Andy

On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:12:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Wanderer wrote:

It isn't the driving that's stupid and dangerous, it's the drivers......

My point exactly. It isn't the two plugs on a cable thats dangerous, its
the idiot who plugs it in without ensuring that its safe to do so, and
forgets that he has..

Which is why the whole idea needs knocking on the head, coz the guy who
does it quite safely for four days doesn't pay attention on the fifth and
electrocutes himself. It isn't an inherently fail-safe idea.

--
The Wanderer

Caffeine isn't addictive as long as you keep taking it.