From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as the
inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying for
building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an exhaustive
list such as:
The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring
Power to outbuildings
Additional circuits
Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom
Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen
Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That should just about cover it!

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I
know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has
elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this
correct?

Fred wrote:

From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as the
inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying for
building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an exhaustive
list such as:

The form in question (a building notice) is very basic and seeks (or for
that matter even allows for) much explanation. You get space for a
description, and perhaps four lines of wording. I would have thought
details that consisted of "partial rewire" would probably be adequate.

The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring
Power to outbuildings
Additional circuits
Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom
Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen
Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That last one is not a notifiable work under part P IIRC.

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I
know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has
elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this
correct?

IIUC, it is a breach of the building regulations - in that you may have
complied with the technical requirements (i.e. by completing the work in
accordance with BS7671:2008), but failed on the procedural element of
seeking permission first. However there is a procedure in place
"regularisation" where even this can be soothed away later.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
Fred wrote:

From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as
the inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying
for building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an
exhaustive list such as:

The form in question (a building notice) is very basic and seeks (or for
that matter even allows for) much explanation. You get space for a
description, and perhaps four lines of wording. I would have thought
details that consisted of "partial rewire" would probably be adequate.

The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring
Power to outbuildings
Additional circuits
Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom
Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen
Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That last one is not a notifiable work under part P IIRC.

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I
know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has
elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this
correct?

IIUC, it is a breach of the building regulations - in that you may have
complied with the technical requirements (i.e. by completing the work in
accordance with BS7671:2008), but failed on the procedural element of
seeking permission first. However there is a procedure in place
"regularisation" where even this can be soothed away later.


I am aware of regularisation. But in most instances, if a passage of a year
has passed, unless there is a safety issue, there is generally little the
council can do. I thought Part P was different, in that is an offence to
start work.

My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for
years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and
have it all regularised later?

My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for
years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and
have it all regularised later?


Yes. Who is going to know what works you have, or are going to do (unless
you blab your mouth off) inside you house. If you come to sell the
property, then the best thing to do is get it all tested so you can say to
the buyer "See, everything is up to standard" and show them the papers to
prove it.

Fred wrote:

I am aware of regularisation. But in most instances, if a passage of a year
has passed, unless there is a safety issue, there is generally little the
council can do. I thought Part P was different, in that is an offence to
start work.

Same applies to part P as elsewhere I believe. You should not start work
prior to notification unless in an emergency to make safe etc. However
assuming you have started work, you can notify later (e.g. due to
emergency or forgetting) and it still count it as notification rather
than after the fact regularisation.

My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for
years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and
have it all regularised later?

In reality it all depends on the approach of your local council. Most
don't follow the rules as laid down by the approved documents, and will
expect to either charge you for each inspection they carry out, or have
you commission your own inspection and give them a certificate. Hence
they are more amenable to carrying out multiple inspections over
extended periods. It just costs you more. Some, play closer to the
intended mode of operation, and do swallow the cost of inspection,
however they are going to be far less keen on stumping up for multiple
inspections on piecemeal work (hardly surprising since they probably
make a loss on every one). Others will not bother to inspect and either
take your word for it regarding the quality of the work, or carry out
very basic tests themselves (like go round with a plug in socket tester).


--
Cheers,

John.

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BigWallop wrote:
My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for
years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and
have it all regularised later?


Yes. Who is going to know what works you have, or are going to do (unless
you blab your mouth off) inside you house. If you come to sell the
property, then the best thing to do is get it all tested so you can say to
the buyer "See, everything is up to standard" and show them the papers to
prove it.

The other option on the house sales form is simply to say "I don't know"
with regard to the various certification questions.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Fred wrote:
From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as the
inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying for
building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an exhaustive
list such as:
The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring
Power to outbuildings
Additional circuits
Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom
Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen
Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That should just about cover it!

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I
know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has
elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this
correct?

No. If you commence work (that is notifiable) before you have submitted
an application, then you have committed an offence by failing to comply
with the Building Regulations. Due to a recent change in the law, they
can take a prosecution up to six months after the offence comes to light
(subject to two years between carrying out the work and discovery). The
twelve months is for serving a Section 36 notice making you rectify any
contraventions of the requirements within 28 days. If you fail to
rectify any contraventions, they can carry out the work in default at
any time after serving the notice.

If you did notify them after the fact, to request a Regularisation
certificate, they almost certainly would not give one without either, a)
an *installation* certificate (*not* a Periodic inspection report) from
the suitably-qualified electrician who installed it (i.e.., a member of
NICEIC or other body), or b) some or all of the wiring exposed and
either inspected by a Council electrician or a suitably-qualified
electrician (usually at your expense).

If you *do* leave it until you come to sell, you run the risk of the
buyer asking for the certification just before you are due to exchange,
and them either pulling out or stinging you for the cost of "a complete
re-wire".
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:18:57 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

BigWallop wrote:
My point above was to make a blanket application that would cover me for
years to come. Are you saying I can carry out work at various times and
have it all regularised later?


Yes. Who is going to know what works you have, or are going to do (unless
you blab your mouth off) inside you house. If you come to sell the
property, then the best thing to do is get it all tested so you can say to
the buyer "See, everything is up to standard" and show them the papers to
prove it.

The other option on the house sales form is simply to say "I don't know"
with regard to the various certification questions.

Surely it's the *only* answer. If they want every bit of paperwork in
triplicate then let them retrospectively apply for it. If the buyer
wants to buy the property then they will.

If you haven't notified building control for something like double
glazing or a boiler replacement because you deem it's none of their
damn business then that ought to be fully understood and accepted by a
prospective buyer.


--

Mike wrote:

The other option on the house sales form is simply to say "I don't know"
with regard to the various certification questions.

Surely it's the *only* answer. If they want every bit of paperwork in
triplicate then let them retrospectively apply for it. If the buyer
wants to buy the property then they will.

If you haven't notified building control for something like double
glazing or a boiler replacement because you deem it's none of their
damn business then that ought to be fully understood and accepted by a
prospective buyer.

When I sold my last place the buyers solicitors wanted the installation
certificate for the boiler. I simply replied that I had installed it
myself and hence none was available or required in the circumstances
(pointed them at the HSE site for the gas safety statutory instrument).
They seemed happy enough with that and it was not mentioned further.

--
Cheers,

John.

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"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
news
Fred wrote:
From time to time I would like to make some changes to my wiring such as
the inclusion of RCDs and some unknown projects at this time.

I don't intend to get anyone else in to do the jobs so it means applying
for building control. I haven't seen the forms but can I give an
exhaustive list such as:
The adding of RCDs and/or other protective devices and wiring
Power to outbuildings
Additional circuits
Modifying / adding circuits to bathroom
Modifying / adding circuits to kitchen
Modifying / adding equipotential bonding

That should just about cover it!

Now I have a choice, I either ask for an inspection before I sell, (yes I
know that there are issues that rules may change) or since if a year has
elapsed, then the local council can't do anything about it anyway.

The crux of the matter is that I won't have broken any laws. Is this
correct?

No. If you commence work (that is notifiable) before you have submitted an
application, then you have committed an offence by failing to comply with
the Building Regulations. Due to a recent change in the law, they can take
a prosecution up to six months after the offence comes to light (subject
to two years between carrying out the work and discovery). The twelve
months is for serving a Section 36 notice making you rectify any
contraventions of the requirements within 28 days. If you fail to rectify
any contraventions, they can carry out the work in default at any time
after serving the notice.


Many thanks for taking the time to reply. As you seem it all sounds far
more fraught if I carry work out before making an application. My original
thought was to make an application, so to comply within the law, but to say
the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay off an inspection for as
long as I can. It then means I can carry out ad-hoc changes with impunity,
when changing the kitchen layout or installing or moving a shower.

Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection from the
local authority making sure that any alterations / additions comply with the
current regs. What would be wrong with that?

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Fred wrote:


Many thanks for taking the time to reply. As you seem it all sounds
far more fraught if I carry work out before making an application. My
original thought was to make an application, so to comply within
the law, but to say the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay
off an inspection for as long as I can. It then means I can carry
out ad-hoc changes with impunity, when changing the kitchen layout or
installing or moving a shower.
Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection from
the local authority making sure that any alterations / additions
comply with the current regs. What would be wrong with that?

Several things!

Firstly, you have only two years to complete a job after submitting a
Building Notice.

Secondly - if your local authority handles DIY Part-P applications in the
same way as mine - you have to submit a spec and wiring diagrams for the
*whole* job up front. The BCO (who *isn't* a qualified electrician) will
carry out an inspection at first fix time, before the cables are covered
up - to make sure that the cables are the right type, go where they're
supposed to, and are correctly protected. Then, when it's all connected up
they send in a qualified electrician to do the final inspection and test.
Without those three steps you won't get a Completion Certificate.

I also understand from my BCO that carrying out a periodic inspection
retrospectively is no longer acceptable as an alternative to declaring what
you're going to do up front.
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:41:03 -0000 Fred wrote :
Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection
from the local authority making sure that any alterations /
additions comply with the current regs. What would be wrong
with that?

FWIW I have just sold my property in the UK and on the form I put
something like "various alterations to the electrical installation
carried out over the last few years" and reason consent not
obtained "these works were carried out in over an extended period
and it was not possible to define the works to be carried out
beforehand". No queries raised by the buyer at all. I had had my
own periodic inspection done beforehand for my own peace of mind
and had rectified the items I was pulled on, so had no concerns if
the buyer had wanted a test.

On the gas side, I declared that I had installed the boiler myself
and before putting the property on the market had it
professionally serviced and got a Landlord's safety certificate so
as to knock any queries on the head. IMO a "Landlord's" gas safety
certificate should be mandatory on all sales; as for Part P, bin
it!

--
Tony Bryer, 'Software to build on' from Greentram
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com

Fred wrote:

My original
thought was to make an application, so to comply within the law, but to say
the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay off an inspection for as
long as I can. It then means I can carry out ad-hoc changes with impunity,
when changing the kitchen layout or installing or moving a shower.

Why would you not want it inspected as you're going along? You have to
pay upfront for a Building Notice. If you don't start (i.e., notify
Building Control that you've started) within three years, the
application is null and void, and you don't get your money back. Once
you've started however, there is no time limit to how long you can take
(subject to normal enforcement procedures if you do anything dangerous
or don't rectify anything that doesn't comply). The inspection fee is
the same no matter how many visits are made.

Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection from the
local authority making sure that any alterations / additions comply with the
current regs. What would be wrong with that?

Have I got this wrong, or is what you're proposing to carry out the
work, cover it over, *then* notify Building Control that you've done it
and expect a completion certificate?

How is the Local Authority to know that what you've done is safe, much
less complies with the electrical regulations? As pointed out before,
Building Control will want to see the installation *before* it's covered
over. If they can't, they will ask for proof from a suitably qualified
electrician that it's been done properly or they'll want all the plaster
taken off and the wiring exposed before they'll issue a completion
certificate.

One of us has the wrong end of the stick.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?

"Hugo Nebula" abuse@localhost wrote in message
...
Fred wrote:

My original thought was to make an application, so to comply within the
law, but to say the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay off an
inspection for as long as I can. It then means I can carry out ad-hoc
changes with impunity, when changing the kitchen layout or installing or
moving a shower.

Why would you not want it inspected as you're going along? You have to pay
upfront for a Building Notice. If you don't start (i.e., notify Building
Control that you've started) within three years, the application is null
and void, and you don't get your money back. Once you've started however,
there is no time limit to how long you can take (subject to normal
enforcement procedures if you do anything dangerous or don't rectify
anything that doesn't comply). The inspection fee is the same no matter
how many visits are made.

Obviously when I come to sell I would then request an inspection from the
local authority making sure that any alterations / additions comply with
the current regs. What would be wrong with that?

Have I got this wrong, or is what you're proposing to carry out the work,
cover it over, *then* notify Building Control that you've done it and
expect a completion certificate?

How is the Local Authority to know that what you've done is safe, much
less complies with the electrical regulations? As pointed out before,
Building Control will want to see the installation *before* it's covered
over. If they can't, they will ask for proof from a suitably qualified
electrician that it's been done properly or they'll want all the plaster
taken off and the wiring exposed before they'll issue a completion
certificate.

One of us has the wrong end of the stick.

I wasn't sure of the rules local authorities used regarding notices and
inspections. I take your points and may I thank you and others for
informing me of the general practices I should follow.

I'm happy for inspections to be done periodically as and when work is done.
My limited experience of building control in other matters has been a rather
cursory inspection, though I presume an experienced eye can tell all very
quickly.

I was unaware it mattered where circuits ran when used in conjunction with
an RCD, as long as runs are vertical or horizontal. I felt this can be
checked with a wire detector without opening up the plaster.

My main intention was to reduce cost where I carry out the work myself, some
of which is unknown at this time, hence making a generalised application.

In article ,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost writes:
Fred wrote:

My original
thought was to make an application, so to comply within the law, but to say
the work hasn't been fully carried out and stay off an inspection for as
long as I can. It then means I can carry out ad-hoc changes with impunity,
when changing the kitchen layout or installing or moving a shower.

Why would you not want it inspected as you're going along? You have to

I don't think anyone will object to it being inspected,
but if I think back to rewiring my house, you would have
had to make something like 30 visits over 10 years as I
gradually worked through it, mostly at some point during
the weekends and bank holidays. Doesn't really fly, but
above all, the whole thing was really quite pointless.

Bear in mind that, other than the initial installation,
most domesting wiring is DIY or unqualified builder, etc,
and has always been so. If any significant proportion of
the people who strictly should be filing building notices
actually did so, there are nowhere near enough Part P
electricians to handle the load (nor I suspect, BCO's).
Outside of places like this newsgroup and the professionals
directly involved, the awareness of Part P is virtually
zero in any case.

It might be useful if the OP said which area they're in.
In some areas, BCO's recognise how silly this is and don't
force inspections on every bit of a long term DIY project,
whereas in other areas, it would be impossible to do such
a thing legally and you'd be better not starting down the
application road in the first place. Someone else in the
same area might be able to say what their experience was.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I don't think anyone will object to it being inspected,
but if I think back to rewiring my house, you would have
had to make something like 30 visits over 10 years.......xxxxxxxx


i'm told that the new blue and brown wiring have dates stamped on them
so you cant pretend it was done before part P,
where can i get some red and black wire?

what is the cutoff date for part P?

I remember rewiring a bathroom light new years eve a few years ago...

--

[george]

Fred wrote:

I was unaware it mattered where circuits ran when used in conjunction with
an RCD, as long as runs are vertical or horizontal. I felt this can be
checked with a wire detector without opening up the plaster.

Cables should still be in the proscribed zones as before. A wire
detector will show you some of the picture, but perhaps not all. Much
depends on how keen the inspector is to know. Taking photos as you do
the work could also help.

My main intention was to reduce cost where I carry out the work myself, some
of which is unknown at this time, hence making a generalised application.

Not suggesting this is the correct solution, but I expect 99%+ of people
will choose to minimise costs when doing this sort of work by simply
ignoring building control entirely... Obviously one needs to do the
actual work "by the book" to make sure there is no practical chance of
any comeback later.

--
Cheers,

John.

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George (dicegeorge) wrote:
I don't think anyone will object to it being inspected,
but if I think back to rewiring my house, you would have
had to make something like 30 visits over 10 years.......xxxxxxxx


i'm told that the new blue and brown wiring have dates stamped on them
so you cant pretend it was done before part P,

Many wires and accessories have been date stamped for some time anyway.
Part P came in during the overlap period where both colours were
allowed. So the colour alone tell you nothing. Even with a later date
stamp its not conclusive - you may have replaced a cable after nailing
though it for example.

where can i get some red and black wire?

Don't bother...

what is the cutoff date for part P?

In what sense?


--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote:

Cables should still be in the proscribed zones as before.

ITYM prescribed! Proscribed means forbidden or condemned... C.f the
hyper- and hypo- prefixes :~)

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Cables should still be in the proscribed zones as before.

ITYM prescribed! Proscribed means forbidden or condemned... C.f the
hyper- and hypo- prefixes :~)

Indeed, and what I thought I had typed, but obviously the fingers or
brain were not following orders at the time! (then again spelling was
never my strong spot) ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

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