wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:16 am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying
something like:

Think you mean China? Japan was taking over the industrial world
in the '70s.

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on
the job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

I'd agree in general.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

John Rumm wrote:
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) wrote :
Tell the kids today people used to access discussion groups on a
1MHz 8 bit machine with no hard drive - and if you were really
fancy a screen that would only display green - and they'd laugh,
and find it hard to believe it ws possible.

Prior to emigrating I (sadly) had to chuck out lots of stuff from my
past. The earliest (1989-90) SuperBeam manuals said that a hard disk
was recommended, but not essential; a slightly later one had a
detailed explanation of what a mouse was and to use it!

Remember when the first Microsoft mice required a dedicated ISA card to
plug them into...

Dont think I was even aware of MS then. I do remember having access to
a homemade scanner though, it had steppers and radio tuning string
loops
mounted on sheet wood, with a pen as the pixel scanner. It impressed
nearly everyone. ISTR it took most of an hour to scan a page in B&W.


NT

40 years ago the Japanese were making Nikon SLR cameras which had
already become the standard tool for professional reportage
photographers. Nikon Nikkor lenses were among the best in the world.
Japanese ,motorcycles were recognosed as being the finest engineered in
the world. Tat? many of the the Nikon cameras bought then are still in
use today.
It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Thats what I meant. Maybe 40 years ago then.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.

If

Please eff off as you are a plantpot.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.

If you're talking about the Prius you claim to own it certainly isn't
faster than an MGB while running on electricity.

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

That is your department. The Chevy Volt is on the way next year. 10%
powered by electric motors. There is a bus that is electric powered and
uses a small turbine with geny on it. It doubles the mpg.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.

If you're talking about the Prius you claim to own it certainly isn't
faster than an MGB while running on electricity.

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

Use one of these with supercapacitors and a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much, they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion engine, especially the diesel.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Dave Plowman (News)"
saying something like:

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.

If you're talking about the Prius you claim to own it certainly isn't
faster than an MGB while running on electricity.

He means it will beat the average MGB to the scrapyard.

The Prius has a high resale price.

John Rumm wrote:
Tony Bryer wrote:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) wrote :
Tell the kids today people used to access discussion groups on a
1MHz 8 bit machine with no hard drive - and if you were really
fancy a screen that would only display green - and they'd laugh,
and find it hard to believe it ws possible.

Prior to emigrating I (sadly) had to chuck out lots of stuff from my
past. The earliest (1989-90) SuperBeam manuals said that a hard disk
was recommended, but not essential; a slightly later one had a
detailed explanation of what a mouse was and to use it!

Remember when the first Microsoft mice required a dedicated ISA card to
plug them into...

And the motherboards which blew if you had the temerity to attach a
mouse when powered up?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

Use one of these with supercapacitors and a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much, they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant flywheel strapped to the boot
and huge solar panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?
With all the third-world starvation, we could import refugees to simply
push our cars and pay them a tin of beans per day - dead cheap.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

Use one of these with supercapacitors and a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much, they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant flywheel strapped to the boot
and huge solar panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?
With all the third-world starvation, we could import refugees to simply
push our cars and pay them a tin of beans per day - dead cheap.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on the
job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

Except when they are misleading ********, of course.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on the
job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

Except when they are misleading ********, of course.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...

Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle until
batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors advance further.

A supercapacitor can store electrical energy as can a battery. Capacitors
store very little though, until supercapacitors came around. A battery has
two state changes. Electrical to chemical to store the charge, then back to
electrical energy again. Each state change adds inefficiencies.
Supercapacitors are electrical energy storage only.

Batteries cannot be charged fast or discharged fast. Supercapacitors can.
They can take almost all the kinetic braking energy of a vehicle and give it
back off in acceleration, without any state changes as the energy is stored
in electrical energy. That is one clear advantage.

Battery technology is progressing at a rapid pace. They are becoming smaller
with denser energy storage. Supercapacitors are racing ahead in technology.
These can store kinetic energy from braking.

The supercapacitors take in nearly all the kinetic energy of braking and
slowing down and can immediately give it back off. The vehicles are stopped
by magnets which create electrical energy. Supercapacitors will immediately
take all of a charge and give the lot back off immediately too - unlike
batteries. They do not go wrong, deteriorate and will outlast the vehicle.

One US company say they have approached the size/energy storage density of a
battery. If this company does achieve its claims, batteries could be done
away with on vehicles.

Existing Supercapacitors hold 25 times less charge than a battery of similar
physical size. These breakthroughs may mean they hopefully will be about
equal in this respect.
Advances are so good that it is feasible that supercapacitors can just
replace the battery set on a hybrid altogether to give performance on
existing hybrid vehicles. However the aim is to make ful;l 100% electric
vehicles. Supercapacitors can also charge up in seconds from the grid.

Supercapacitors have great potential for use in elevators where the downward
energy is stored to push the elevator back up. This would make a huge impact
in the energy running of millions of elevators. Also in the large water and
gas mains pumps, which can take a large draw on grid current - like at half
time in a cup final. Supercapacitors will alleviate the draw.

"China is experimenting with a new form of electric bus (capabus) that runs
without powerlines using power stored in large onboard electric double-layer
capacitors, which are quickly recharged whenever the electric bus stops at
any bus stop (under so-called electric umbrellas), and fully charged in the
terminus. A few prototypes were being tested in Shanghai in early 2005. In
2006, two commercial bus routes began to use electric double-layer capacitor
buses; one of them is route 11 in Shanghai."

In 2001 and 2002, VAG, the public transport operator in Nuremberg, Germany
tested a hybrid bus which uses a diesel-electric drive system with electric
double-layer capacitors.

Since 2003 Mannheim Stadtbahn in Mannheim, Germany has operated an LRV
(light-rail vehicle) which uses electric double-layer capacitors to store
braking energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

Banks of supercapacitors can be installed in electric train systems storing
kinetic energy in banks near the lines, not on the train vehicle.

MIT Builds Efficient Nanowire Storage to Replace Car Batteries
http://www.popularmechanics.co.....52623.html

Why Supercapacitors Will Be Your Hybrid's New Best Friend
http://www.popularmechanics.co.....52628.html

"The Zenn Motor Company is waiting until a new power storage technology is
ready before it releases the vehicle, called the cityZENN, which will
achieve 80mph speeds and have a range of 250 miles."

Rechargeable in five minutes, the vehicle will use ultracapacitors from
Texas-based EEStor instead of conventional lithium or lead acid batteries."
http://www.zenncars.com/

"Based on these claims, a full charge should give the capacitor sufficient
energy to drive a small car 300 miles (480 km). Although the technology
should allow very fast charging (e.g., 5 minutes), "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

EEstor have not come up with the goods yet - we shall see.

http://www.ultracapacitors.org/

Things are looking good indeed, and the Shanghai bus means that the bus gets
charged up at each bus stop, so no ugly expensive cables with masts about
and no tram lines.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors advance
further.

When people such as you blindly quote advertising blurb without a clue
about how it works or not it's no surprise sane readers take the ****.

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors advance
further.

When

Eff off you are total plantpot.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Eff off you are total plantpot.

Thought your recent absence meant you'd had treatment since you seemed to
have stopped posting twaddle afterwards. If it did the medication has worn
off. Please seek help again. You know it makes sense.

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When
someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors advance
further.

When

Eff off you are total plantpot.


I think he means super-converters. A big difference from a super-capacitor.
Also a totally different technique of releasing demand for power from
battery packs.

An example of super-capacitor technology he

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-8.htm

And an example of a super resonant converter he

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2904198


Just an example of both techniques.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When
someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a
fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors
advance
further.

When

Eff off you are total plantpot.


I think he means super-converters. A big difference from a
super-capacitor.

No a super-capacitor. Read the links.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Eff off you are total plantpot.

Thought

Eff off you are total plantpot.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When
someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually a
fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors
advance
further.

When

Eff off you are total plantpot.


I think he means super-converters. A big difference from a
super-capacitor.

No a super-capacitor. Read the links.


I have read the linked pages, and I think you should do the same. I am also
aware of the technologies used in the production of such products, and the
scientific theoris that makes them what they are. A super-capacitor is only
now capable of producing / storing enough power to light a torch bulb.
Definitely not enough to run an electric car, unless its a toy you bought
yourself as a xmas present.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
om...

I have read the linked pages, and I think
you should do the same. I am also
aware of the technologies used in the
production of such products, and the
scientific theoris that makes them what
they are. A super-capacitor is only
now capable of producing / storing enough
power to light a torch bulb.

It is clear you did not read the links - well properly. 12 years ago a Prius
prototype had supercapacitors and they could store enough energy to give 10
standing racing starts 0-60 on electric motor only. They went to batteries
only in the released model. That was around 12 to 15 years ago. They have
improved greatly since. Look at the Shanghai bus. I posted the text.

Definitely not enough to run an electric car, unless its a toy you bought
yourself as a xmas present.

You must learn to read. What you don't understand get back.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.

If

Please eff off as you are a plantpot.

Every time Drivel calls someone a "plantpot" I get this image in my mind
of little Weed between Bill & Ben.
Must be having a Reggie Perin moment

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news
An example of super-capacitor technology he

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-8.htm

"Created: April 2003". even then it was out of date.

wrote in message
...


Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

IME generalisations are usually not very general.

On Nov 8, 1:15*pm, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on the
job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

Except when they are misleading ********, of course.

are you saying there wasnt loads of jap made tat on the market in the
70s?


NT

wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 1:15 pm, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on
the
job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

Except when they are misleading ********, of course.

are you saying there wasnt loads of jap made tat on the market in the
70s?


The 60s yes, by the 70s they had turned the corner. Any tat was minimal.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

Supercapacitors

Heh.
These have been waffled about for years on the 'net. If the Shanghai and
District Number 42 Bus and Chow Mein service actually have it working
I'd be impressed.
So far, it's all been hot air and vapourware, designed to relieve
punters from their excess money.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

Supercapacitors

Heh.
These have been waffled about for years on the 'net. If the Shanghai and
District Number 42 Bus and Chow Mein service actually have it working
I'd be impressed.

The route number is given. You must now be impressed.

Doctor Drivel coughed up some electrons that declared:


wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 1:15 pm, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something
like:

It was the very bottom end though, market stall tat

Really? In that case the decent-quality Makita drills I was using on
the
job ~35 years ago must be a figment of my imagination, then.

They most certainly weren't cheap tat.

Most of us are aware that generalisations are only generalisations

Except when they are misleading ********, of course.

are you saying there wasnt loads of jap made tat on the market in the
70s?


The 60s yes, by the 70s they had turned the corner. Any tat was minimal.

Sorry old fella, but that is the proverbial hairy dangling orbs.

In the 70's, "jap" was not a term of endearment when referring to tools. I
agree, by the 80's Japanese electronics was very clearly advanced (eg
Hitachi, Panasonic). I don't know when tools turned the corner as I
wouldn't touch anything much except Bosch. Now I find myself owning Makita
and Hitachi tools and feeling the quality.

This comment is worth what you paid for it

Cheers

Tim

In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"BigWallop" wrote in message
news

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Use one of these with supercapacitors and
a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much,
they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye
chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion
engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant
flywheel strapped to the boot and huge solar
panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?

You clearly have no clue about these advances. This is sad. When
someone
laughs at something they are not familiar with, there is usually
fool
behind the laugh.

Supercapacitors combined with a battery can enhance a hybrid vehicle
until batteries get developed even further - or supercapacitors
advance
further.

When

Eff off you are total plantpot.


I think he means super-converters. A big difference from a
super-capacitor.

No a super-capacitor. Read the links.

Including the bit about low energy density - 20% of current battery
technology

Never mind - it's a nice buzzword for you to impress the nurses with

--
geoff

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Tim S saying
something like:

In the 70's, "jap" was not a term of endearment when referring to tools.

A hangover from when they were actually pretty crappy. By the 70s I had
bought, along with Snap-On, some Kamasa tools, which I still use.
Ironically, the later (90s onwards) Kamasa aren't as good.

"Tim S" wrote in message
...

This comment is worth what you paid for it

Exactly. It is a worthless comment.

"geoff" wrote in message
...

No a super-capacitor. Read the links.

Including the bit about low energy density - 20% of current battery
technology

Never mind - it's a nice buzzword for you to impress the nurses with

Maxie, have you been on the **** again?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.
If you're talking about the Prius you claim to own it certainly isn't
faster than an MGB while running on electricity.

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

I'm still waiting for a full road test of one of those. Plenty of driving
impressions - but not yet the full story. Wonder why? Could it be the
range is nothing like the claimed amount?

My calcs say you will get the performance OR the range. Not both
together ;-)

Still it is a good proof of concept, and I'd certainly have one if they
were sub 10k with a warranty on the battery :-)

I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at affordable
prices.

Panasanyo* will probably come out with something good by then.

*Or whatever the merged company is called.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Doctor Drivel"
saying something like:

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.
Use one of these with supercapacitors and a battery set and they will sing.
Supercapacitors are advancing so much, they may approach a battery in size
energy density. One that occurs bye chemical batteries and hello supercaps
and bye, bye useless internal combustion engine, especially the diesel.

Why not go the whole hog and have a giant flywheel strapped to the boot
and huge solar panels on the roof, folding out accordian-fashion as
speed increases?
With all the third-world starvation, we could import refugees to simply
push our cars and pay them a tin of beans per day - dead cheap.

"To reading, By Rick Shaw"

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I'm still waiting for a full road test of one of those. Plenty of
driving impressions - but not yet the full story. Wonder why? Could it
be the range is nothing like the claimed amount?

My calcs say you will get the performance OR the range. Not both
together ;-)

Yup. I'd bet on it. But these makers still major on the terrific
performance and give the range in the same breath. Which are radically
different.

Still it is a good proof of concept, and I'd certainly have one if they
were sub 10k with a warranty on the battery :-)

It's a 'concept' which has been around for a long long time. The holy
grail really.

I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at affordable
prices.

I've heard that one before...

Panasanyo* will probably come out with something good by then.

*Or whatever the merged company is called.

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
..and if you said I am going home in my electric car, that goes faster
than an MGB, they would wet themselves.
If you're talking about the Prius you claim to own it certainly isn't
faster than an MGB while running on electricity.

I think hes masturbating over the Tesla.

I'm still waiting for a full road test of one of those. Plenty of driving
impressions - but not yet the full story. Wonder why? Could it be the
range is nothing like the claimed amount?

My calcs say you will get the performance OR the range. Not both together
;-)

Still it is a good proof of concept, and I'd certainly have one if they
were sub 10k with a warranty on the battery :-)

I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at affordable
prices.

Expect to see supercapacitors to compliment the batteries. The range and
performance. Makers are running up prototypes of new light "insulated"
bodies and advanced glass, to reduce a/c and heating demands.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I'm still waiting for a full road test of one of those. Plenty of
driving impressions - but not yet the full story. Wonder why? Could it
be the range is nothing like the claimed amount?

My calcs say you will get the performance OR the range. Not both
together ;-)

Yup. I'd bet on it. But these makers still major on the terrific
performance and give the range in the same breath. Which are radically
different.

Still it is a good proof of concept, and I'd certainly have one if they
were sub 10k with a warranty on the battery :-)

It's a 'concept' which has been around for a long long time. The holy
grail really.


I think you are not being quite fair or realistic.

Two things make the BEV a proposition these days, when it wasn't before.

One is the advanced electronics we can use to get the efficiency out of
the controllers and so on, and the other is the lithium in the batteries.

Its always been possible to develop automotive batteries but with cheap
fuel, there was no commercial incentive. Its been the laptop palmtop and
mobile phone that has driven LIPO development.

But with energy at the price levels we have seen, BEV's suddenly make
sense commercially, as well as ecologically.

If you think about it, there is a potential for the car battery business
to be an industry on the scale of the oil industry. Not as big, but
getting on that way.

Once Ford, GM and Chrysler are in Chapter 11, that should clear the dead
wood out..


There are HUGE returns to be made from the company that does indeed
develop and patent the battery of the future.

And world economic conditions are actually highly favourable.


I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at affordable
prices.

I've heard that one before...


The batteries exist, but they are expensive and fragile. They can be
made safer by adjusting the chemistry, and they can be made cheaper by
going into serious volume production. There is probably less in an
electric motor, controller and battery (in labour content`) than an IC
car power train.



Panasanyo* will probably come out with something good by then.

*Or whatever the merged company is called.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's a 'concept' which has been around for a long long time. The holy
grail really.


I think you are not being quite fair or realistic.

Two things make the BEV a proposition these days, when it wasn't before.

One is the advanced electronics we can use to get the efficiency out of
the controllers and so on, and the other is the lithium in the batteries.

Both of which are only small advances on the scale of things.

Its always been possible to develop automotive batteries but with cheap
fuel, there was no commercial incentive. Its been the laptop palmtop and
mobile phone that has driven LIPO development.

But with energy at the price levels we have seen, BEV's suddenly make
sense commercially, as well as ecologically.

Err - you're assuming electricity will be cheap. My bet is as fossil fuels
become rarer electricity costs will rise in step. The investment required
to produce electricity from non fossil sources will require vast
investment - and that can only be recovered in one way.

If you think about it, there is a potential for the car battery business
to be an industry on the scale of the oil industry. Not as big, but
getting on that way.

Of course the potential exists. If only people would stop talking crap
about battery powered cars with the same range and performance as we're
used to.

Once Ford, GM and Chrysler are in Chapter 11, that should clear the dead
wood out..

All of those are spending billions on research.


There are HUGE returns to be made from the company that does indeed
develop and patent the battery of the future.

As I said - the holy grail.

And world economic conditions are actually highly favourable.


I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at
affordable prices.

I've heard that one before...


The batteries exist, but they are expensive and fragile. They can be
made safer by adjusting the chemistry, and they can be made cheaper by
going into serious volume production. There is probably less in an
electric motor, controller and battery (in labour content`) than an IC
car power train.

There are always 'principles' that exist waiting only for some way of
making production a reality. Far more than ever see the light of day.



Panasanyo* will probably come out with something good by then.

*Or whatever the merged company is called.


--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
It's a 'concept' which has been around for a long long time. The holy
grail really.


I think you are not being quite fair or realistic.

Two things make the BEV a proposition these days, when it wasn't before.

One is the advanced electronics we can use to get the efficiency out of
the controllers and so on, and the other is the lithium in the batteries.

Both of which are only small advances on the scale of things.


No. Lithium batteries are about 3 times lighter than NiCd, and about
half the weight of NiMh.

And if regenerative braking nets you 25% more miles, you are up to a
potential improvement in power and range for a given weight of maybe 300%.

If that is a small advance, Id like to know what a big one is..


Its always been possible to develop automotive batteries but with cheap
fuel, there was no commercial incentive. Its been the laptop palmtop and
mobile phone that has driven LIPO development.

But with energy at the price levels we have seen, BEV's suddenly make
sense commercially, as well as ecologically.

Err - you're assuming electricity will be cheap. My bet is as fossil fuels
become rarer electricity costs will rise in step. The investment required
to produce electricity from non fossil sources will require vast
investment - and that can only be recovered in one way.

We've been over this time and again. Discounting windmills, the actual
lifetime cost of a nuclear unit of electricity is around 3p. Even if
sold at 5p...

With 50Kwh being about the same sort of energy as around 50 liters of
fuel *burned in an engine*, you have a relative fuel cost of nuclear
around £2.50 a half tank, or road diesel around £50.

Now thats not the whole story, because the battery costs, has a limited
lifetime, and takes energy to make, but it gives some idea..




If you think about it, there is a potential for the car battery business
to be an industry on the scale of the oil industry. Not as big, but
getting on that way.

Of course the potential exists. If only people would stop talking crap
about battery powered cars with the same range and performance as we're
used to.

Once Ford, GM and Chrysler are in Chapter 11, that should clear the dead
wood out..

All of those are spending billions on research.


Spending money is not directl correlated wit results.
They are not spending billions on electrc cars anyway. They are spending
billions on ways to leverage the technology they know. Liquid fuel cars.

Remember that a BEV makes about 85% of all investment in existing car
plant totally redundant. Its cheaper to start from scratch.
Tesla have done more than anyone else with very little investment.




There are HUGE returns to be made from the company that does indeed
develop and patent the battery of the future.

As I said - the holy grail.

Not really. There are theoretical limits on lithium batteries: they will
never have the range of a fuel car but they will be good *enough*, and
the crossover point at which they become cheaper to run overall than IC
cars is by my crude estimation, a couple of years away.



And world economic conditions are actually highly favourable.


I think we are about 18 months away from usable batteries..at
affordable prices.
I've heard that one before...


The batteries exist, but they are expensive and fragile. They can be
made safer by adjusting the chemistry, and they can be made cheaper by
going into serious volume production. There is probably less in an
electric motor, controller and battery (in labour content`) than an IC
car power train.

There are always 'principles' that exist waiting only for some way of
making production a reality. Far more than ever see the light of day.


But everythig already exists.

Its like sitting there in 1975 saying 'well we have these micro chips,
and Ram chips and CMOS chips, in principle we could probably make a
computer for less than £100 using a TV as monitor in two years time' and
having people like you scoff at the very idea...

Technological progrss happens because a lot of small things come
together at a certan pont in time.

If te eleisabethans had had IC engines, which were probably withing
their abilities to amke, they could have probably constructed an aircraft.

Frank Whittles gas turbine engine was practical at inception in the late
20's; what it needed was advances in metallurgy.

You an take a 1925 Rolls Royce engine, dynamically balance it, and
double its power output.

Electric cars have been here since the last century. All they needed as
a decent battery.And for liquid fuel costs to rise substantially above
electricity.

Today, those conditions exist.