Andy Dingley wrote:
On 13 Oct, 05:16, Matty F wrote:

OK, so I'll look out for two containers, and use that expanding foam
stuff between them.

Expanding foam isn't a good insulator - different mechanical structure
to the factory-foamed stuff, much lower performance.


I was thinking of this kind of stuff

http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

(that's a US dealer, so definitely NOT a shop recommendation)

nice video here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40639873461283

My solution to this (solar thermal store) is to switch from a round to
a rectangular plastic tank, then use a constructed box of yellow foam
PIR boards on the sides of it.

The reason I suggested foaming in place is that there will be no voids
between the inner tank (soft through heat) the foam or the supporting,
cold, outer box/tank. The problem appeared to be one of supporting the
inner plastic; a constructed box won't give the same support.

Andy

Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:14 am, Bruce wrote:

30 tonnes of water! I hope the foundations are built to take it.

The large cold water tank is on the ground uphill from the building.
There's a small cold water tank on the ground below the building fed
by rainwater from the roof. Water is automatically pumped to the large
tank when the level drops.


If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

On Oct 14, 9:29 am, Bruce wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:14 am, Bruce wrote:

30 tonnes of water! I hope the foundations are built to take it.

The large cold water tank is on the ground uphill from the building.
There's a small cold water tank on the ground below the building fed
by rainwater from the roof. Water is automatically pumped to the large
tank when the level drops.

If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

It should miss OK, but the outside toilet is in the way and would get
a large flush. The tank is wooden with half inch diameter steel bands
around it. Been there for 60 years at least.

On Oct 14, 9:10 am, Andy Champ wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 13 Oct, 05:16, Matty F wrote:

OK, so I'll look out for two containers, and use that expanding foam
stuff between them.

Expanding foam isn't a good insulator - different mechanical structure
to the factory-foamed stuff, much lower performance.

I was thinking of this kind of stuff

http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

(that's a US dealer, so definitely NOT a shop recommendation)

nice video here

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40639873461283

My solution to this (solar thermal store) is to switch from a round to
a rectangular plastic tank, then use a constructed box of yellow foam
PIR boards on the sides of it.

The reason I suggested foaming in place is that there will be no voids
between the inner tank (soft through heat) the foam or the supporting,
cold, outer box/tank. The problem appeared to be one of supporting the
inner plastic; a constructed box won't give the same support.

If I can get a square tank, it would be simplest for me to make a
close fitting 20mm plywood box around it, with 100x50mm wooden bands
around the outside bolted together. Put it all in the existing box and
stuff it full of fibreglass insulation. A bit of heat loss doesn't
matter since nobody is paying for the solar heating.

Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:29 am, Bruce wrote:

If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

It should miss OK, but the outside toilet is in the way and would get
a large flush. The tank is wooden with half inch diameter steel bands
around it. Been there for 60 years at least.


Having spent some of my career investigating structural failures, I
feel sure I would have chosen another location for those 30 tonnes of
water. Or for the house.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:45:24 -0700, Matty F wrote:

If I can get a square tank, it would be simplest for me to make a
close fitting 20mm plywood box around it, with 100x50mm wooden bands
around the outside bolted together. Put it all in the existing box and
stuff it full of fibreglass insulation. A bit of heat loss doesn't
matter since nobody is paying for the solar heating.

Ask around local plumbers. (Or on Freecycle.) From time to time I have to
remove rectangular-section grp tanks. (Mind you, the last one came out in
bits as it had obviously been installed before the loft hatch was
contsructed :-))



--
YAPH http://yaph.co.uk

Never believe anyone who claims to be a liar

On Oct 14, 9:51 am, Bruce wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:29 am, Bruce wrote:

If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

It should miss OK, but the outside toilet is in the way and would get
a large flush. The tank is wooden with half inch diameter steel bands
around it. Been there for 60 years at least.

Having spent some of my career investigating structural failures, I
feel sure I would have chosen another location for those 30 tonnes of
water. Or for the house.

Here's an aerial view. I think the water will miss the building.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2n9955d.jpg

In any case it's on poles and any water would go underneath.
There is another toilet that we can use while rebuilding the one that
will get washed away.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:16:45 -0700, Matty F wrote:

Here's the box after the thieves wrecked it:
http://i33.tinypic.com/21dq645.jpg


I think the problem is that by the time the scrotes have got up there and
ripped open the casing to find it's plastic you've suffered a loss even if
they take nothing. Maybe some signs around warning that the installation
is plastic scrap and DIY? Assuming scrotes can read/think, of course :-(



--
YAPH http://yaph.co.uk

I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Oct 14, 9:51 am, Bruce wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:29 am, Bruce wrote:

If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

It should miss OK, but the outside toilet is in the way and would get
a large flush. The tank is wooden with half inch diameter steel bands
around it. Been there for 60 years at least.

Having spent some of my career investigating structural failures, I
feel sure I would have chosen another location for those 30 tonnes of
water. Or for the house.

Here's an aerial view. I think the water will miss the building.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2n9955d.jpg

In any case it's on poles and any water would go underneath.
There is another toilet that we can use while rebuilding the one that
will get washed away.

And the occupant?

Mary

On Oct 14, 11:02 pm, YAPH wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:16:45 -0700, Matty F wrote:
Here's the box after the thieves wrecked it:
http://i33.tinypic.com/21dq645.jpg

I think the problem is that by the time the scrotes have got up there and
ripped open the casing to find it's plastic you've suffered a loss even if
they take nothing. Maybe some signs around warning that the installation
is plastic scrap and DIY? Assuming scrotes can read/think, of course :-(

The alarm will be attached to the box and the solar panel. The alarm
siren is on the roof nearby and the sound carries for a mile. So the
scrotes will be deafened and fall off the roof.

On 13 Oct, 19:03, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

If you had a heatpipe system instead, even compared to a vacuum tube
system with a water loop like the Solartwin, then you'd see much
higher output temperatures.

You need to brush up, Andy :-)

Why?

A decent heatpipe system has a stagnation temperature well over
100°C Water loop (i.e. non heatpipe) systems are less, even when
they're vacuum insulated. Flat plates less again.

Now I'm happy to accept that your Solartwin system, which I understand
to be a water loop in a vacuum tube, won't reach 100°C but that
doesn't mean that other can't. It's also indicative of one of the
efficiency issues with that system and why I'd consider it to be an
obsolete design of tube.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 13 Oct, 19:03, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

If you had a heatpipe system instead, even compared to a vacuum tube
system with a water loop like the Solartwin, then you'd see much
higher output temperatures.

You need to brush up, Andy :-)

Why?

Now I'm happy to accept that your Solartwin system, which I understand
to be a water loop in a vacuum tube,

That's where you need to brush up, Andy :-)

Mary

Somewhere on teh intarwebs "Matty F" typed:
Is it possible to get or make a hot water cylinder that is not made
from metal? Around here they are usually copper. And thieves steal
anything that's made of copper, and they have just done so, together
with all the piping and taps.

Hi Matty,

Just to go OT a bit, in the town where I live there have been thefts of
manhole covers and stormwater drain grilles over the past few months,
amounting to around 40 of each. Apparently the covers are $NZ300 (100 quid)
each to replace and the stormwater drain grille thingies slightly more.

I have a wee car with 12" wheels and very nearly dropped a wheel into an
open manhole in't middle of road just over the brow of a hill a month back.

The council say that they're having major problems with metal of all kinds
being stolen and suspect an organised gang of metal thieves, probably
stealing to order.

shakes head Bloody amazing.
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)

On Oct 15, 1:20 pm, "~misfit~" wrote:

The council say that they're having major problems with metal of all kinds
being stolen and suspect an organised gang of metal thieves, probably
stealing to order.

I suspect the only way to catch them is to have a sting operation
where tempting metal objects are on display behind a chainlink fence,
and have video cameras to record rego numbers etc. Maybe a tracking
device inside a battered copper tank.

Builders nearby have had their supply wire stolen and the wiring
chopped out of an unfinished house. I've installed video cameras for
them and have caught two vehicles parked outside in the last week with
the occupants snooping around. Now that lots of copper downpipes are
on the house, I give it less than a week before they are stolen. I'm
off to install sensor lights there right now. Isn't it odd that people
don't believe the video surveillance warning signs.

On Oct 14, 11:45 pm, "Mary Fisher" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...



On Oct 14, 9:51 am, Bruce wrote:
Matty F wrote:
On Oct 14, 9:29 am, Bruce wrote:

If the large tank failed, would the house be on the route the 30
tonnes of water took, going down the hill?

It should miss OK, but the outside toilet is in the way and would get
a large flush. The tank is wooden with half inch diameter steel bands
around it. Been there for 60 years at least.

Having spent some of my career investigating structural failures, I
feel sure I would have chosen another location for those 30 tonnes of
water. Or for the house.

Here's an aerial view. I think the water will miss the building.
http://i37.tinypic.com/2n9955d.jpg

In any case it's on poles and any water would go underneath.
There is another toilet that we can use while rebuilding the one that
will get washed away.

And the occupant?

I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 1:20 pm, "~misfit~" wrote:

The council say that they're having major problems with metal of all
kinds
being stolen and suspect an organised gang of metal thieves, probably
stealing to order.

I suspect the only way to catch them is to have a sting operation
where tempting metal objects are on display behind a chainlink fence,
and have video cameras to record rego numbers etc. Maybe a tracking
device inside a battered copper tank.

Builders nearby have had their supply wire stolen and the wiring
chopped out of an unfinished house. I've installed video cameras for
them and have caught two vehicles parked outside in the last week with
the occupants snooping around. Now that lots of copper downpipes are
on the house, I give it less than a week before they are stolen. I'm
off to install sensor lights there right now. Isn't it odd that people
don't believe the video surveillance warning signs.

"Copper" downpipes? I read thieves lifted disused rail lines - a lot of
steel in them. That takes heavy lifting and a big truck. No doubt
professionals.

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't touch it.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...

....


I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

You have separate toilets???

There's posh!

Mary

On Oct 15, 10:03 pm, "Mary Fisher" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...

I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

You have separate toilets???

There's posh!

The ladies choose to use that toilet because it's a bit closer and has
a nice path going to it. What they don't know is that the other toilet
has a flap to keep the cave wetas from climbing out, and a cistern so
it can be flushed. And I'm soon going to install a handbasin and
electric light.

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17" screen)
http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

I'm told they are quite harmless and there's never more than about 30
of them!

On Oct 15, 9:10 pm, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Builders nearby have had their supply wire stolen and the wiring
chopped out of an unfinished house. I've installed video cameras for
them and have caught two vehicles parked outside in the last week with
the occupants snooping around. Now that lots of copper downpipes are
on the house, I give it less than a week before they are stolen. I'm
off to install sensor lights there right now. Isn't it odd that people
don't believe the video surveillance warning signs.

"Copper" downpipes? I read thieves lifted disused rail lines - a lot of
steel in them. That takes heavy lifting and a big truck. No doubt
professionals.

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't touch it.

The house has a copper roof too.
Few people dare to stop outside here at night. The neighbourhood watch
photographs everybody who does, with infrared video cameras.
I've just arrived home and seen the recording of the builder next door
caught by my new sensor lights. I can even see that he is saying a
word beginning with "F"!

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 10:03 pm, "Mary Fisher" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...

I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

You have separate toilets???

There's posh!

The ladies choose to use that toilet because it's a bit closer and has
a nice path going to it. What they don't know is that the other toilet
has a flap to keep the cave wetas from climbing out, and a cistern so
it can be flushed. And I'm soon going to install a handbasin and
electric light.

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17" screen)
http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

I'm told they are quite harmless and there's never more than about 30
of them!



I put a house spider out three days ago that was that big.
It could stand on the top of a pint glass with its legs on the rim.
I am not so sure it was harmless as it was stalking me!

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 10:03 pm, "Mary Fisher" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...

I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

You have separate toilets???

There's posh!

The ladies choose to use that toilet because it's a bit closer and has
a nice path going to it. What they don't know is that the other toilet
has a flap to keep the cave wetas from climbing out, and a cistern so
it can be flushed. And I'm soon going to install a handbasin and
electric light.

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17" screen)
http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

I'm told they are quite harmless and there's never more than about 30
of them!

And very pretty!

I think I'd not bother with the 'ladies'. There's plenty of cover anyway ...

Mary

Somewhere on teh intarwebs "Matty F" typed:
On Oct 15, 9:10 pm, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

Builders nearby have had their supply wire stolen and the wiring
chopped out of an unfinished house. I've installed video cameras for
them and have caught two vehicles parked outside in the last week
with the occupants snooping around. Now that lots of copper
downpipes are on the house, I give it less than a week before they
are stolen. I'm off to install sensor lights there right now. Isn't
it odd that people don't believe the video surveillance warning
signs.

"Copper" downpipes? I read thieves lifted disused rail lines - a
lot of steel in them. That takes heavy lifting and a big truck. No
doubt professionals.

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't
touch it.

The house has a copper roof too.
Few people dare to stop outside here at night. The neighbourhood watch
photographs everybody who does, with infrared video cameras.
I've just arrived home and seen the recording of the builder next door
caught by my new sensor lights. I can even see that he is saying a
word beginning with "F"!

Hehee! Good luck. A copper roof huh? What an ostentatious display of wealth!
;-)
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)

Somewhere on teh intarwebs "Matty F" typed:
On Oct 15, 10:03 pm, "Mary Fisher" wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...

I imagine the occupant would get washed away too. But not to worry,
it's the ladies' toilet. I use the other one!

You have separate toilets???

There's posh!

The ladies choose to use that toilet because it's a bit closer and has
a nice path going to it. What they don't know is that the other toilet
has a flap to keep the cave wetas from climbing out, and a cistern so
it can be flushed. And I'm soon going to install a handbasin and
electric light.

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17" screen)
http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

I'm told they are quite harmless and there's never more than about 30
of them!

Nice collection of cave wetas you have there Matty.
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)

On 15 Oct, 10:39, Matty F wrote:

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17" screen)http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

New Zealand?

I'd never heard of wetas until today, when a friend (Auckland) blogged
about finding a 2" long one stuck up their hot water tap. None, then
two of you. Clearly it's an invasion.

If the orcs weren't enough, New Zealand also has 4"+ roach-crickets to
worry about. I don't want to go there any more.

On 15 Oct, 09:10, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't touch it.

Easier to cut too, just use a hacksaw.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 15 Oct, 10:39, Matty F wrote:

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17"
screen)http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

New Zealand?

I'd never heard of wetas until today, when a friend (Auckland) blogged
about finding a 2" long one stuck up their hot water tap. None, then
two of you. Clearly it's an invasion.

If the orcs weren't enough, New Zealand also has 4"+ roach-crickets to
worry about. I don't want to go there any more.

Should be able to get a decent meal from a handful.

Mary

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 15 Oct, 09:10, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't touch
it.

Easier to cut too, just use a hacksaw.

Don't last as long though - and look naff. Perhaps that's why it's not
touched, there's honour of some kind even among thieves!

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

Should be able to get a decent meal from a handful.


Bearing in mind where they seem to live - I think I'll pass.

Andy

"Andy Champ" wrote in message
. uk...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Should be able to get a decent meal from a handful.


Bearing in mind where they seem to live - I think I'll pass.

Andy

You're not a gardener who mulches with manure then :-)

Mary

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 15 Oct, 09:10, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Sites use plastic pipes on new builds, just because thieves don't touch
it.

Easier to cut too, just use a hacksaw.

No, just an axe.

On 14 Oct, 19:35, "Mary Fisher" wrote:

to be a water loop in a vacuum tube,

That's where you need to brush up, Andy :-)

So what is your Solartwin? Water loop, or something better?

Because if it is some newer improved version, then it _ought_ to have
a stagnation temperature high enough to damage plastic pipe! If it
doesn't, it's ineffective in comparison to heatpipe / vac tube systems
that can do this.

Mary Fisher wrote:

You're not a gardener who mulches with manure then :-)

Mary

The plants are a pretty good filter. The bugs, on the other hand, are
likely to have eaten ...er... I think you can work it out.

Andy

Somewhere on teh intarwebs "Andy Dingley" typed:
On 15 Oct, 10:39, Matty F wrote:

The cave wetas under the lid (actual size on a 17"
screen)http://i33.tinypic.com/2a9xgjt.jpg

New Zealand?

Aye.

I'd never heard of wetas until today, when a friend (Auckland) blogged
about finding a 2" long one stuck up their hot water tap. None, then
two of you. Clearly it's an invasion.

Damn! It was supposed to be undercover.

If the orcs weren't enough, New Zealand also has 4"+ roach-crickets to
worry about. I don't want to go there any more.

Ehhh, wetas are harmless as long as you leave them alone. I believe the
Giant Weta is the worlds most massive insect? In a country without native
mammals (barring bats) insects and birds evolved to fill empty eco-niches.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)

In article ,
Matty F writes:
Is it possible to get or make a hot water cylinder that is not made
from metal? Around here they are usually copper. And thieves steal
anything that's made of copper, and they have just done so, together
with all the piping and taps.
The water is heated using a solar panel, so there is no electric
element or naked flames anywhere around the tank.
The water can reach boiling point.
I was thinking of some kind of plastic tank around 100 litres, in a
box packed with fibreglass insulation.

Just talking to a builder this afternoon.
4 weeks ago, he got quite a good amount for an old h/w cylinder.
Today (or rather yesterday), they're worthless.
You can still get something for clean copper, but scrap yard
wouldn't pay anything for old h/w cylinders (although they will
take them for nothing). Apparently there's a backlog of copper
in the chain but suddenly no demand for it. Same with lead.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Same with lead.

Wondered why my battery supplier wasn't too keen to take 8 dead UPS
batteries yesterday, they used to snap my hand off when I say "do you
want the old ones?"

In article , Andy Burns
scribeth thus
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Same with lead.

Wondered why my battery supplier wasn't too keen to take 8 dead UPS
batteries yesterday, they used to snap my hand off when I say "do you
want the old ones?"

Damm and double damm!..

We've a pile of 'em at one location I was stockpiling them!!

--
Tony Sayer