Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

"mogga" wrote in message
news
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.
You do not want to be able to kill yourself or anyone else.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:11:20 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:



"mogga" wrote in message
news
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.
You do not want to be able to kill yourself or anyone else.

Well quite - he wants to know if he can legally get the landlord to do
it.
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.


Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.


Your local glazier will be able to advise on correct thickness and
standards.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:15:52 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.


Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.


Your local glazier will be able to advise on correct thickness and
standards.

thanks!
--
http://www.freedeliveryuk.co.uk
http://www.holidayunder100.co.uk

On Sep 24, 9:15*am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.

Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.

I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.

MBQ

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.


Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.


Your local glazier will be able to advise on correct thickness and
standards.

My local glass place has a big chart on the wall showing exactly what you
can use & where.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.

I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.

Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

Regs are online anyway. And frankly, regs or not, having been
absoulutely shocked at the fragility of horticutaral glass, and the
lethality of what it leaves behind, I would not consider it in a house
except in small leaded lights.


MBQ

On 24 Sep, 09:11, "dennis@home" wrote:

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!


Although it's still (AFAIK) UK-legal, wired "safety" glass is a bad
idea. It has some use for fire resistance, but it's far from safe
against impact. It's slightly more resistant to falling right through
it than simple glass, but the injuries from such an accident can be
far _worse_ than plain glass. It's not only sharp, the broken wire
ends act as hooks.

Wired glass is also no use for extra security. A good kick goes
through it. If you need mesh over glass, add separate steel mesh.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 24 Sep, 09:11, "dennis@home" wrote:

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!


Although it's still (AFAIK) UK-legal, wired "safety" glass is a bad
idea. It has some use for fire resistance, but it's far from safe
against impact. It's slightly more resistant to falling right through
it than simple glass, but the injuries from such an accident can be
far _worse_ than plain glass. It's not only sharp, the broken wire
ends act as hooks.

Wired glass is also no use for extra security. A good kick goes
through it. If you need mesh over glass, add separate steel mesh.

Wired glass is *not* safety glass!
It is wired to stop it falling out of fire doors and that is the only place
it should be used.
If you need to stop someone falling through you have to use laminated or
better some railings.
To stop serious injury toughened should be OK.

Andy Dingley coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 24 Sep, 09:11, "dennis@home" wrote:

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!

I assume he meant "toughened" as opposed to "annealed" which is what a lot
of the bog standard stuff is.

For whoever raised the question in the first place:

I've had recent long and interesting discussions with various glaziers
regarding annealed vs toughened DG panels.

The general outcome was:

Toughened is expensive (about 40% more expensive than annealed) if you need
lots of it. But for one of two bits it doesn't make enough difference to
argue about and safety should win out.

Toughened is a little bit more resistant than annealed at resisting
breakages, but is by no means unbreakable. What it does do is break into
lots of tiny pieces that tend not to stab you to death on the way through.

However, burglars (allegedly) prefer toughened to annealed. Annealed glass
in large panes makes lots of noise when it's broken. Toughened can be set
of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for other
things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

Laminated is much more difficult to break through, but impractical for my DG
units.

However, if the build regs state toughened (or safety) glass for a
particular scenario, one must comply.

In my case, I'll probably use annealed for my windows, but toughened for the
kid's bedrooms where double-bunk beds may offer a chance of falling against
a window. Obviously I need to use toughened for any low panels in doors
too - I need to check the regs...

Cheers
Tim

dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:



"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On 24 Sep, 09:11, "dennis@home" wrote:

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!


Although it's still (AFAIK) UK-legal, wired "safety" glass is a bad
idea. It has some use for fire resistance, but it's far from safe
against impact. It's slightly more resistant to falling right through
it than simple glass, but the injuries from such an accident can be
far _worse_ than plain glass. It's not only sharp, the broken wire
ends act as hooks.

Wired glass is also no use for extra security. A good kick goes
through it. If you need mesh over glass, add separate steel mesh.

Wired glass is *not* safety glass!
It is wired to stop it falling out of fire doors and that is the only
place it should be used.

Indeed, I've seen someone stick a foot through it whilst p***ed. They were
wearing trainers, not boots.

If you need to stop someone falling through you have to use laminated or
better some railings.

This is an important point I forgot to mention ^^^.

Cheers

Tim

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.


Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.


Your local glazier will be able to advise on correct thickness and
standards.

Glass used in wondows which are less than a certain distance from the floor
(about 1m I think) have to be toughened - above that and normal glass can be
used.

ALL glass in doors, and in windows which are attached to doors, IE like in a
combination frame, have to be toughened glass, irrespective of distance from
the floor.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 24 Sep, 09:11, "dennis@home" wrote:

It doesn't matter what the law says, fit safety glass.

Well that's helpful. What's "safety" glass? Laminated? Wired?!


Although it's still (AFAIK) UK-legal, wired "safety" glass is a bad
idea. It has some use for fire resistance, but it's far from safe
against impact. It's slightly more resistant to falling right through
it than simple glass, but the injuries from such an accident can be
far _worse_ than plain glass. It's not only sharp, the broken wire
ends act as hooks.

Wired glass is also no use for extra security. A good kick goes
through it. If you need mesh over glass, add separate steel mesh.

No, I think that safety=toughened mostly.

The sort that turns into pellets, rather than shards: and takes a lot
more to break.

Laminated is another option that is maybe even better, but I don't think
its required by the regs.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:50:46 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Toughened can be set
of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for other
things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

It works very well. It also works with double glazed units which are
notoriously difficult to break. Which is why it is a good idea to
keep such a punch in a clip by any double glazed upstairs window you
might want to get out of in case of a fire in the house. Throwing
chairs, the dog, toys etc against a DG window will rarely break it,
the air gap acts as a cushion.

Huge wrote:
On 2008-09-24, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.
I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.

Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

Regs are online anyway. And frankly, regs or not, having been
absoulutely shocked at the fragility of horticutaral glass, and the
lethality of what it leaves behind, I would not consider it in a house
except in small leaded lights.

What he said. About 10 years ago, my Mother fell through a secondary double
glazing panel fitted to a wooden French door in our lounge - fortunately, she
grabbed the couch as she fell and went through it backwards and only ended up
needing about a dozen stitches in a place more embarrassing than significant.
But I was appalled at the fact that the panel wasn't toughened glass (we didn't
fit it) and that it broke into "spears" - had she gone through it forwards with
arms outstretched I think the chances are it would have killed her.

We threw away all the similar panels shortly thereafter.


Years ago whole glass doors had to be toughened but not doors with
separate upper and lower dg units. Whole council estates were being
fitted with non toughened so that when someone fell down the stairs they
went straight through the bottom panel of the front door. Nasty.

I used to have a house with only fanlights in the bedrooms. Kept a heavy
hammer in one and an axe in the other. Best to go for a corner I believe
so that air cushioning is not so pronounced.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:50:46 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Toughened can be set
of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for other
things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

It works very well. It also works with double glazed units which are
notoriously difficult to break. Which is why it is a good idea to
keep such a punch in a clip by any double glazed upstairs window you
might want to get out of in case of a fire in the house. Throwing
chairs, the dog, toys etc against a DG window will rarely break it,
the air gap acts as a cushion.

Agreed absolutely. I'd just add that for maximum effectiveness,
probably of an automatic centre punch, certainly of one of those dinky
little toffee hammers with a pointed end, use it as close as possible to
a corner, or at least an edge.

Now you know what to do when you're next in a train crash.


--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

Peter Parry wrote:
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:50:46 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Toughened can be set
of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for
other things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

It works very well. It also works with double glazed units which are
notoriously difficult to break. Which is why it is a good idea to
keep such a punch in a clip by any double glazed upstairs window you
might want to get out of in case of a fire in the house. Throwing
chairs, the dog, toys etc against a DG window will rarely break it,
the air gap acts as a cushion.

I believe that the scumbags who break into cars use a spark plug to shatter
the side windows.

No personal experience.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.


Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass.

I dont think that is correct.
My glazier says it can be either toughened, or laminated.
Laminated is around a third cheaper, albeit at the expense of a thicker
glass section. He also puts the BS mark on his laminated glass.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Sep 24, 12:23*pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.

I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.

Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

That's not what you said though.

MBQ

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 12:23 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.
I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.
Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

That's not what you said though.


How is the 'issue is people falling through and being literally cut to
ribbons' not what I said, when I did say it?



MBQ

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 12:23 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.
I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.
Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

That's not what you said though.


How is the 'issue is people falling through and being literally cut to
ribbons' not what I said, when I did say it?


The data on this commercial site is AFAICR correct and worth a look:

http://www.warmedgeunits.com/safety.html


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

MBQ

Bob Mannix wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 12:23 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.
I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.
Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.
That's not what you said though.

How is the 'issue is people falling through and being literally cut to
ribbons' not what I said, when I did say it?


The data on this commercial site is AFAICR correct and worth a look:

http://www.warmedgeunits.com/safety.html


I think so too.

So whilst not strictly necessary in all cases, unless there is a resoan
not to, fit toughened safety glass everywhere you can.

Tim S wrote:

Toughened is expensive (about 40% more expensive than annealed) if you need
lots of it. But for one of two bits it doesn't make enough difference to
argue about and safety should win out.

Toughened is a little bit more resistant than annealed at resisting
breakages, but is by no means unbreakable. What it does do is break into
lots of tiny pieces that tend not to stab you to death on the way through.

However, burglars (allegedly) prefer toughened to annealed. Annealed glass
in large panes makes lots of noise when it's broken. Toughened can be set
of with an automatic centre punch and the noise may be mistaken for other
things. Never tried this though - it's hearsay.

So how does annealed glass (which I have to say I've never heard of)
break? (I do have personal experience of both toughened and ordinary
glass...)

David

On Sep 25, 12:30*pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 12:23 pm, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 24, 9:15 am, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?
Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.
Yup. MUST be toughened safety glass. In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels..the issue is people falling
through and being literally cut to ribbons.
I thought it depended on height above the floor for windows.
Sort of. I think the key is being able to fall through it.

That's not what you said though.

How is the 'issue is people falling through and being literally cut to
ribbons' not what I said, when I did say it?

You also said "In fact all glass used these days
in a house has to be unless the pane size is very small as in e.g.
leaded lights or small framed panels.."

You totally omitted any mention of height from the ground being a
criteria for the rewuirement of safety fglass.

Lobster coughed up some electrons that declared:

So how does annealed glass (which I have to say I've never heard of)
break? (I do have personal experience of both toughened and ordinary
glass...)

The glaziers all used the word "annealed" to me. When I asked the same
question you just did, they said "bog standard float glass: ie what you're
going to get unless you ask for something better".

The stuff that everyone's got and breaks into nasty sharp pointy bits.

Cheers

Tim

PS

Ths explains it better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archite...Annealed_glass

mogga wrote:
Are there building regs regarding internal doors with glass?

Someone's asking about a door made up from 4 single glazed panels
measuring approx 1 - 1 1/2 foot tall by 2 - 2 1/2 foot wide.

There are. They're called the Building Regulations, and they say that if
you carry out building work or make a material change of use of a
building, the work you do must meet the guidance, and (in the case of
alterations) the work you do mustn't make any other part of the building
any less compliant than before.

If you carry out any work that affects the building's structure or fire
safety, and as part of that, you replace or alter the internal door,
then, yes, you have to fit safety glass to that door to comply with
Building Regulations.

If you're just replacing the door or the glass, it must comply with the
General Product Safety Regulations 1994. This is controlled by Trading
Standards at your local or County Council. I assume it's controlled
reactively, i.e., following a complaint or serious HSE-reportable accident.

If it's an existing pane, I don't know if there are any regulations
covering its continued use. I can't imagine there are within a private
dwelling, unless some legal or informal registration schemes for HMOs or
student accommodation, etc., would cover it.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have you strayed"?