Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -
2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)
3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house); others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

Help!

Your comments most welcome

thanks in advance for any pointers/ thoughts

Jim

On 27 Jul, 10:58, jim wrote:
Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -
2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)
3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house); others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

Help!

Your comments most welcome

thanks in advance for any pointers/ thoughts

Jim

Jim
Two things I can comment on - I suspect that you won't get a total
answer from one person!

A pressurised hot water tank may well not apply in your situation as
you are on a low pressure private supply. The point about those tanks
is that they run at mains pressure and consequently you get mains
pressure hot water. There is also the downside of such tanks that I
understand that they have to be professionally installed, you have to
inform your insurance company and have them inspected on an annual
basis.

In conjunction with your interest in alternative heat sources, the
heat store configuration would I think be a better option as
effectively any source of heat can be 'plugged' into it. OK it means
a heat exchanger for the DH water but they are not expensive and are
very efficient - someone else wold have to reply on their performance
in a low pressure situation.

One solution if using a conventional system for blending various heat
sources is the Dunsley Neutraliser - it'll come up on Google.

I'll watch this thread with interest.
Rob

On 2008-07-27 10:58:38 +0100, jim said:

Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Seems like it unless you've priced LPG.




Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -
2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)
3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

Given that you want to have pressure at the taps and the shower, there
are only really two ways to do it.

- Storage in the roof with gravity feeds and pressurised output using
shower pumps etc. This uses space in the roof which you've said
you don't want to do

- Pumping and pressurising on the supply side. You still need space
for the water accumulator but it doesn't have to be on the top floor.
I have a friend in Norway with a system of this nature. He has a
large cabin by a lake and can extract water from it. The pump and
accumulator are in the basement. It all works very well but you can
hear the pump coming on when water is used, although only for a short
distance around the door to the basement. The pump is pretty quiet.
Overall it seems to work well. For practical purposes it's like a
mains fed system. The whole thing was bought as a packaged system
built into a steel frame complete wih filtration and all controls.




I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house);

Possibly. You need to have a water cylinder with several coils at
different levels to do this, or you could just pre-warm the water in a
separate cylinder.


others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Not economic



Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

Unless you have some fairly substantial battery storage. This kind
of pump for pressurising the whole system is somewhat more electricity
hungry than a shower pump.



would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

It doesn't make a difference. You are transferring heat via heat
exchangers and coils. Keep in mind that a large pressurised vessel
has to be professionally installed whereas an open vented one does not.



should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?


It seems to be a trade off.

- Pressurised system will take less space, give pressure results all
over the house, cost a fair bit to implement and be somewhat vulnerable
to power failure

- Open system could probably be improved. For example you could fit
several smaller header tanks or use long thin ones and gain some space.
You would be more immune to power failure. Showers will still work
without pump, just not quite so well.

If I were doing it, I would probably look to go the pressurised route
but make sure that there is adequate backup. Overall, the space saving
may not be that significant other than you are moving the issue from
one place to another.




Help!

Your comments most welcome

thanks in advance for any pointers/ thoughts

Jim

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:58:38 -0700 (PDT), jim wrote:

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Oil is about 60p/l, burn a litre in an hour and you get about 10kWhr of
energy as input to say a 75% efficient boiler so about 8kWhr of useful
energy. That works out at 7.5p/kwhr that is pretty much what I pay for
electricity on an online, direct debit, domestic tariff...

Oil prices are very volatile and rise much more rapidly as crude prices
change compared to electricity. They also fall but not with quite the same
fast response.

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.

I don't know what it is with wanting high (mains) pressure hot and cold. I
feel it's more of a "fashion" thing like combi boilers. Bear in mind that
pressurised HW cylinders should have a regular inspection by a qualified
person.

The only time you really *need* a decent head (say 1 bar) is for a
shower, that can be done with a shower pump, no need to pressurise the
whole system.

I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house); others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Personally I'm looking to add both a wood burner with boiler and thermal
solar to our current oil based heating/hw system at the same time add a
heat bank/thermal store. With the possibility of also heating that store
by electricity, either mains if oil gets really expensive, or from a
decent sized wind turbine (5kW or so rated).

How much flow and fall do you have available from those streams? 20l/sec
and 30m head will give you a few kW of hydro power.

Heat pump energy is "low grade". The temperature of the water coming out
of one is only about 40 or 50C not hot enough for domestic hot water or
normal radiator based heating. Fine for under floor heating though.

if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

Yep... Make sure that all the wood burner boiler loops are open gravity
ones so you don't need power to open valves or circulate the water. You
may need manual valves across electric ones to dump heat and/or get some
circulation in the heating during a power cut.

would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

IMHO yes.

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

Look at a heat bank/thermal store this should be able to take multiple
heat sources much easier than a pressurised system.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27 Jul, 10:58, jim wrote:
Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Yes and no. It is probably the simplest and easiest solution but don't
discount the alternative energy sources. Do make sure you fully
explore the costings and don't accept the claims of the marketeers
without justification. In other threads the claimed output of wind
generators does not match the average real life situation.



Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

You could either use a comercial pressurisation unit with an air
bladder chamber, non return valve and a pressure switch or you could
raise your storage tank and use a high/low level stop/start float
switch arrangement. This is probably the simplest in terms of
technical requirement and maintenance.



as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -

You may achieve sufficient head from your raised storage tank or you
might need a shower pump. alternatively the pressurisation unit would
sort this out in conjunction with an unvented cylinder. Using an oil
fired combi would be another solution but you would not have the
option of using solar contribution to your hot water if you wanted to.


2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)

You may not gain as much as you think from a new boiler over a 1990s
unit. By that time there were some pretty efficient units around.
Again do the sums!


3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

See above


advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

As you say a lot of f ing about but done once. The place for the
pressurisation unit would be best at source but then weatherproofing
and electrics required both for motor power and controls cabling. You
need to do some digging either way.


I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house); others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

How much are you gong to do yourself? Solar hot water systems kits
available for around a grand - a lot less than the big bucks the
commercial installers want from you.
The streams you mention - are they sluggish or would there be
sifficient height of head available for a turbine generator with grid-
tie system? They should provide a decent heat source for a heat pump
however. Are they yours or is someone likely to want to charge you
silly fees for using them? Beware EA and River or authorities and
jobsworths wanting to obstruct your plans.


Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse

What is the power supply integrity like in your neck of the woods? If
you only get a power cut exceeding a few minutes duration every two or
three years so what - a small geny is pretty cheap.

- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

Depends how much you want to pay and if you are willing to install
additional coils now. Solid fuel systems can be inherently difficult
to control the output as fire takes time to die down even after the
thermostat says no more heat thank you. Not insurmountable but is the
house unattended for extended periods?


should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

I would retain a (raised) potable water header tank for the Domestic
water supplies with high/low supply pump control. The radiator system
could be pressurised if you so desire.
The above is my personal outlook hope it helps


Help!

Your comments most welcome

thanks in advance for any pointers/ thoughts

Jim

On 27 Jul, 11:17, robgraham wrote:
On 27 Jul, 10:58, jim wrote:



Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -
2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)
3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house); others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

Help!

Your comments most welcome

thanks in advance for any pointers/ thoughts

Jim

Jim
Two things I can comment on - I suspect that you won't get a total
answer from one person!

A pressurised hot water tank may well not apply in your situation as
you are on a low pressure private supply. The point about those tanks
is that they run at mains pressure and consequently you get mains
pressure hot water. There is also the downside of such tanks that I
understand that they have to be professionally installed, you have to
inform your insurance company and have them inspected on an annual
basis.


yes I've been reading about the negatives... pressure wise that's why
the plumbers want to talk £100s for a whole house pressure pump....

In conjunction with your interest in alternative heat sources, the
heat store configuration would I think be a better option as
effectively any source of heat can be 'plugged' into it. OK it means
a heat exchanger for the DH water but they are not expensive and are
very efficient - someone else wold have to reply on their performance
in a low pressure situation.

Looks like I may end up pumping the supply (with fiddly new pipe from
tanks grrrr)
I fancy a heat store for the flexibility alone.

One solution if using a conventional system for blending various heat
sources is the Dunsley Neutraliser - it'll come up on Google.

thanks I'll check it out.

cheers
Jim

On 27 Jul, 11:21, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-07-27 10:58:38 +0100, jim said:

Hi,
been looking at replacing boiler and HW arrangements for some time now
and would appreciate some more "non-vested interest" comments and
ideas please!

House/Fuel:-
ancient solid wall det. house, no gas, on the end of an overhead power
cable:- is oil still my only real option?

Seems like it unless you've priced LPG.





Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

as part of house refurb we envisage:-
1) a showerroom on top floor -
2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)
3) changing/relcoating HW arrangements to recover space taken by HW
header tank and HW cylinder

advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

Given that you want to have pressure at the taps and the shower, there
are only really two ways to do it.

- Storage in the roof with gravity feeds and pressurised output using
shower pumps etc. This uses space in the roof which you've said
you don't want to do

Well I could do but only with a pump of some sort to lift the incoming
supply up to tanks in the roofspace, but would I get enough head for a
decent shower on the floor below?

- Pumping and pressurising on the supply side. You still need space
for the water accumulator but it doesn't have to be on the top floor.
I have a friend in Norway with a system of this nature. He has a
large cabin by a lake and can extract water from it. The pump and
accumulator are in the basement. It all works very well but you can
hear the pump coming on when water is used, although only for a short
distance around the door to the basement. The pump is pretty quiet.
Overall it seems to work well. For practical purposes it's like a
mains fed system. The whole thing was bought as a packaged system
built into a steel frame complete wih filtration and all controls.


that sounds interesting - as part of the refurb we have inlcuded a
boiler/plant room - how big are accumulators? the ones I've seen so
far are pressure vessels strapped to pumps??

I would also like to consider (with your help) a) whether it's worth;
and b) how best to; allow for future heat sources e.g.1. we already
have 2X wood burners that could have boilers fitted or changed to ones
that do; e.g.2. ground source/water source (a few small streams about
within 30-40m of the house);

Possibly. You need to have a water cylinder with several coils at
different levels to do this, or you could just pre-warm the water in a
separate cylinder.

presumably with a heat store I wouldn't have coils per se? direct in
to the heat store?

others I have not thought of properly
yet- solar???

Not economic



Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse
- future energy crisis power cuts ? - will I then be reliant on a
genny, if only to run the F..ing pump?

Unless you have some fairly substantial battery storage. This kind
of pump for pressurising the whole system is somewhat more electricity
hungry than a shower pump.



would a "simple" shower pump be a better solution for the top floor
showerrroom?

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

It doesn't make a difference. You are transferring heat via heat
exchangers and coils. Keep in mind that a large pressurised vessel
has to be professionally installed whereas an open vented one does not.

yeah I'm beginning to see!

should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

It seems to be a trade off.

- Pressurised system will take less space, give pressure results all
over the house, cost a fair bit to implement and be somewhat vulnerable
to power failure

- Open system could probably be improved. For example you could fit
several smaller header tanks or use long thin ones and gain some space.
You would be more immune to power failure. Showers will still work
without pump, just not quite so well.

If I were doing it, I would probably look to go the pressurised route
but make sure that there is adequate backup. Overall, the space saving
may not be that significant other than you are moving the issue from
one place to another.

space is available just not where it is now and in any case there
ain;t enough head at the mo for a top floor shower..

Cheers
Jim

On 28 Jul, 10:19, cynic wrote:

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

You could either use a comercial pressurisation unit with an air
bladder chamber, non return valve and a pressure switch or you could
raise your storage tank and use a high/low level stop/start float
switch arrangement. This is probably the simplest in terms of
technical requirement and maintenance.


I can't raise the external tank height, tho possibly could add a
larger internal tank in roofspace - that would need a pump though...
and would I get enough head for a reasonable shower on the floor
immed. below it?

2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)

You may not gain as much as you think from a new boiler over a 1990s
unit. By that time there were some pretty efficient units around.
Again do the sums!

where is a good place to gather this sort of efficency detail for
older boilers please?


advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

As you say a lot of f ing about but done once. The place for the
pressurisation unit would be best at source but then weatherproofing
and electrics required both for motor power and controls cabling. You
need to do some digging either way.

mmm wouldn;t fancy that if avoidable - the external tank is somewhat
exposed abt 60m up a muddy stream gully/valley.

The streams you mention - are they sluggish or would there be
sifficient height of head available for a turbine generator with grid-
tie system?

They aren't very big streams and when I looked at the head etc for
power generation I was getting figures of 100w in winter....only way I
could see was huge battery banks (£££) and a lot of pratting abt..

They should provide a decent heat source for a heat pump
however.

That's what I had in mind - anyone have experiences please?

Are they yours or is someone likely to want to charge you
silly fees for using them?

Well they cross our land en route to the small local river - does that
confer "ownership"? No-one else makes use of them for any purpose I am
aware of; after us they pass through or under 2 neighbours' property/
land and into the river...

Beware EA and River or authorities and
jobsworths wanting to obstruct your plans.

Any ideas on what bases they may object/obstruct? is extracting heat
classed as "abstraction" for e.g.?

Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse

What is the power supply integrity like in your neck of the woods? If
you only get a power cut exceeding a few minutes duration every two or
three years so what - a small geny is pretty cheap.

true enough

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

Depends how much you want to pay and if you are willing to install
additional coils now. Solid fuel systems can be inherently difficult
to control the output as fire takes time to die down even after the
thermostat says no more heat thank you. Not insurmountable but is the
house unattended for extended periods?

I was thinking of wood burning stoves with secondary boilers in - not
a "wood powered boiler". I was imagining that when thermostat(s) say
"enough" the output into the room (with the stove in) would then
receive the full output of the stove - does that sound OK? current
stoves (without boilers tho can be retro'd) are rated at 8kw and 12kw
- presume these are theoretical maximums? tho we have been known to
"get a sweat on" (25+degC) in the depths of winter :)

If I had a heat store - would I need extra "coils"? couldn't I plumb
in "straight" to the store?


should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

I would retain a (raised) potable water header tank for the Domestic
water supplies with high/low supply pump control. The radiator system
could be pressurised if you so desire.
The above is my personal outlook hope it helps

Can you point me to any costings/info/sources for potable water header
tanks please?
also same for the sort of pump you describe?

Many thanks to all for the interesting info and ideas!
Cheers
Jim

On 3 Aug, 10:56, jim wrote:
On 28 Jul, 10:19, cynic wrote:

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

You could either use a comercial pressurisation unit with an air
bladder chamber, non return valve and a pressure switch or you could
raise your storage tank and use a high/low level stop/start float
switch arrangement. This is probably the simplest in terms of
technical requirement and maintenance.

I can't raise the external tank height, tho possibly could add a
larger internal tank in roofspace - that would need a pump though...
and would I get enough head for a reasonable shower on the floor
immed. below it?

Ok so a standard shower pump would be a solution.



2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)

You may not gain as much as you think from a new boiler over a 1990s
unit. By that time there were some pretty efficient units around.
Again do the sums!

where is a good place to gather this sort of efficency detail for
older boilers please?

Old boiler figures are dificult to find as manufacturers only push
their new products. Maybe OFTEC could help.
When you have your boiler serviced do you get combustion figures
quoted on the service sheet? (you should)


advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

As you say a lot of f ing about but done once. The place for the
pressurisation unit would be best at source but then weatherproofing
and electrics required both for motor power and controls cabling. You
need to do some digging either way.

mmm wouldn;t fancy that if avoidable - the external tank is somewhat
exposed abt 60m up a muddy stream gully/valley.

A weatherproof hut would sort out that problem. A couple of armoured
cables would be simpler to install than a frost risk pipe. (As long as
the existing pipe will stand the elevated pressure)

The streams you mention - are they sluggish or would there be
sifficient height of head available for a turbine generator with *grid-
tie system?

They aren't very big streams and when I looked at the head etc for
power generation I was getting figures of 100w in winter....only way I
could see was huge battery banks (£££) and a lot of pratting abt..

When you said 60m up a valley did you mean 60m higher or simply that
far away?

They should provide a decent heat source for a heat pump
however.

That's what I had in mind - anyone have experiences please?

There should be the option of asking for a quote from one or more of
the alternative energy installers



Are they yours or is someone likely to want to charge you
silly fees for using them?

Well they cross our land en route to the small local river - does that
confer "ownership"? No-one else makes use of them for any purpose I am
aware of; after us they pass through or under 2 neighbours' property/
land and into the river...

Beware EA and River or authorities and
jobsworths wanting to obstruct your plans.

Any ideas on what bases they may object/obstruct? is extracting heat
classed as "abstraction" for e.g.?

Its amazing what "rules" and charges "they" have hiding away until
they find out you have installed something. If it was my place I have
no neighbours with a view of what I get up to. Your situation may vary


Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse

What is the power supply integrity like in your neck of the woods? If
you only get a power cut exceeding a few minutes duration every two or
three years so what - a small geny is pretty cheap.

true enough

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

Depends how much you want to pay and if you are willing to install
additional coils now. Solid fuel systems can be inherently difficult
to control the output as fire takes time to die down even after the
thermostat says no more heat thank you. Not insurmountable but is the
house unattended for extended periods?

I was thinking of wood burning stoves with secondary boilers in - not
a "wood powered boiler". I was imagining that when thermostat(s) say
"enough" the output into the room (with the stove in) would then
receive the full output of the stove - does that sound OK? current
stoves (without boilers tho can be retro'd) are rated at 8kw and 12kw
- presume these are theoretical maximums? tho we have been known to
"get a sweat on" (25+degC) in the depths of winter :)

If I had a heat store - would I need extra "coils"? couldn't I plumb
in "straight" to the store?

Good point but beware of local water hardness. If you use a simple
unit with an internal tapwater coil it can become scaled up
inteernally and very expensive to rectify. Use a separate plate heat
exchanger although this will require a primary pump


should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

I would retain a (raised) potable water header tank for the Domestic
water supplies with high/low supply pump control. The radiator system
could be pressurised if you so desire.
The above is my personal outlook hope it helps

Can you point me to any costings/info/sources for potable water header
tanks please?

Plumb Centre or one of the competitors

also same for the sort of pump you describe?

Ditto or BSS


Many thanks to all for the interesting info and ideas!
Cheers
Jim

On 3 Aug, 20:38, cynic wrote:
On 3 Aug, 10:56, jim wrote:



On 28 Jul, 10:19, cynic wrote:

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

You could either use a comercial pressurisation unit with an air
bladder chamber, non return valve and a pressure switch or you could
raise your storage tank and use a high/low level stop/start float
switch arrangement. This is probably the simplest in terms of
technical requirement and maintenance.

I can't raise the external tank height, tho possibly could add a
larger internal tank in roofspace - that would need a pump though...
and would I get enough head for a reasonable shower on the floor
immed. below it?

Ok so a standard shower pump would be a solution.

Er... If i will still need a shower pump - why bother with
relocatingtanks and other pumps to fill them - how about a "negative
head" shower pump keeping same tanks heights (altho different
locations) as i have now?

2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)

You may not gain as much as you think from a new boiler over a 1990s
unit. By that time there were some pretty efficient units around.
Again do the sums!

where is a good place to gather this sort of efficency detail for
older boilers please?

Old boiler figures are dificult to find as manufacturers only push
their new products. Maybe OFTEC could help.
When you have your boiler serviced do you get combustion figures
quoted on the service sheet? (you should)

sheet?? :) from memory last guy said 85% but went on about newer ones
being measured on a different scale and so figures not comparable??
boiler is Boulter Camray with a Riello GX burner


advice so far is to install whole house pump, new pressurised system
oil boiler, pressurised HW cylinder for £6k.
This would apparently also entail new bigger water supply pipe from
current external tank - alot of digging and f..ing about from me + few
hundred more £ for a "suitable" pump

As you say a lot of f ing about but done once. The place for the
pressurisation unit would be best at source but then weatherproofing
and electrics required both for motor power and controls cabling. You
need to do some digging either way.

mmm wouldn;t fancy that if avoidable - the external tank is somewhat
exposed abt 60m up a muddy stream gully/valley.

A weatherproof hut would sort out that problem. A couple of armoured
cables would be simpler to install than a frost risk pipe. (As long as
the existing pipe will stand the elevated pressure)

mmm the pipe's going to be the weak link I expect, assuming I have to
replace the pipe, what are the advantages of
all the extra hassles of huts, cables etc? sounds expensive

The streams you mention - are they sluggish or would there be
sifficient height of head available for a turbine generator with grid-
tie system?

They aren't very big streams and when I looked at the head etc for
power generation I was getting figures of 100w in winter....only way I
could see was huge battery banks (£££) and a lot of pratting abt...

When you said 60m up a valley did you mean 60m higher or simply that
far away?

sorry yes I mean far away

They should provide a decent heat source for a heat pump
however.

That's what I had in mind - anyone have experiences please?

There should be the option of asking for a quote from one or more of
the alternative energy installers



Are they yours or is someone likely to want to charge you
silly fees for using them?

Well they cross our land en route to the small local river - does that
confer "ownership"? No-one else makes use of them for any purpose I am
aware of; after us they pass through or under 2 neighbours' property/
land and into the river...

Beware EA and River or authorities and
jobsworths wanting to obstruct your plans.

Any ideas on what bases they may object/obstruct? is extracting heat
classed as "abstraction" for e.g.?

Its amazing what "rules" and charges "they" have hiding away until
they find out you have installed something. If it was my place I have
no neighbours with a view of what I get up to. Your situation may vary





Currently lurking at the back of my mind a-
if whole house is pumped - what abt when there's a power cut/ or worse

What is the power supply integrity like in your neck of the woods? If
you only get a power cut exceeding a few minutes duration every two or
three years so what - a small geny is pretty cheap.

true enough

do i want a pressurised HW cylinder or will that limit what I can do
with it new heat sources?

Depends how much you want to pay and if you are willing to install
additional coils now. Solid fuel systems can be inherently difficult
to control the output as fire takes time to die down even after the
thermostat says no more heat thank you. Not insurmountable but is the
house unattended for extended periods?

I was thinking of wood burning stoves with secondary boilers in - not
a "wood powered boiler". I was imagining that when thermostat(s) say
"enough" the output into the room (with the stove in) would then
receive the full output of the stove - does that sound OK? current
stoves (without boilers tho can be retro'd) are rated at 8kw and 12kw
- presume these are theoretical maximums? tho we have been known to
"get a sweat on" (25+degC) in the depths of winter :)

If I had a heat store - would I need extra "coils"? couldn't I plumb
in "straight" to the store?

Good point but beware of local water hardness. If you use a simple
unit with an internal tapwater coil it can become scaled up
inteernally and very expensive to rectify. Use a separate plate heat
exchanger although this will require a primary pump

water is very soft here.
sorry lost me there - tapwater coil? heat exchanger? for the secondary
heat sources?? or have I missed something?

should I stick with header tanks or go pressurised?

I would retain a (raised) potable water header tank for the Domestic
water supplies with high/low supply pump control. The radiator system
could be pressurised if you so desire.
The above is my personal outlook hope it helps

Can you point me to any costings/info/sources for potable water header
tanks please?

Plumb Centre or one of the competitors

also same for the sort of pump you describe?

Ditto or BSS


many thanks
Jim

On 4 Aug, 10:30, jim wrote:
On 3 Aug, 20:38, cynic wrote:





On 3 Aug, 10:56, jim wrote:

On 28 Jul, 10:19, cynic wrote:

Water supply:-
private spring-fed gravity system with only sufficient pressure to
reach current HW &CH header tanks at "head height" on top floor.

You could either use a commercial pressurisation unit with an air
bladder chamber, non return valve and a pressure switch or you could
raise your storage tank and use a high/low level stop/start float
switch arrangement. This is probably the simplest in terms of
technical requirement and maintenance.

I can't raise the external tank height, tho possibly could add a
larger internal tank in roofspace - that would need a pump though...
and would I get enough head for a reasonable shower on the floor
immed. below it?

Ok so a standard shower pump would be a solution.

Er... If i will still need a shower pump - why bother with
relocatingtanks and other pumps to fill them - how about a "negative
head" shower pump keeping same tanks heights (altho different
locations) as i have now?

No problem - they do have a small maintenance requirement and rely on
a non return valve shutting off tightly which sometimes is affected by
particulate impurities in the water but nothing insurmountable. If the
version you choose employs a shaft seal make sure it is protected
against leakage (such as mounting over a drained tray) This is
basically the same as a commercial pressurisation unit but on a
smaller scale



2) relocating 1990s "inefficient" oil fired CH boiler (i.e. installing
a new "efficient" one)

You may not gain as much as you think from a new boiler over a 1990s
unit. By that time there were some pretty efficient units around.
Again do the sums!

where is a good place to gather this sort of efficency detail for
older boilers please?

Old boiler figures are dificult to find as manufacturers only push
their new products. Maybe OFTEC could help.
When you have your boiler serviced do you get combustion figures
quoted on the service sheet? (you should)

sheet?? :) from memory last guy said 85% but went on about newer ones
being measured on a different scale and so figures not comparable??
boiler is Boulter Camray with a Riello GX burner

Camrays covered a range of stages of evolution from a fibreboard shell
with a crude heat exchanger to more modern high efficiency models. The
Riello GX burner can be set up to be highly efficient. I would be
suspicious of over optimism with 85% and if the results came from one
of the cheaper analysers it may have been based on too quick a reading
where the dt had not attained its final value (a common failing). In
excess of 82/83% may still be a reasonable expectation






SNIP


A weatherproof hut would sort out that problem. A couple of armoured
cables would be simpler to install than a frost risk pipe. (As long as
the existing pipe will stand the elevated pressure)

mmm the pipe's going to be the weak link I expect, assuming I have to
replace the pipe, what are the advantages of
all the extra hassles of huts, cables etc? sounds expensive

What is the existing pipe? MDPE (Alkathene) should be fine, Galvanised
steel laid properly may also be pretty good. Its a how long is a piece
of string situation really.



SNIP

When you said 60m up a valley did you mean 60m higher or simply that
far away?

sorry yes I mean far away





They should provide a decent heat source for a heat pump
however.

That's what I had in mind - anyone have experiences please?

No but I am watching progress of a neighbour who has commissioned
www.iceenergy.co.uk to put in a ground source heat pump and they
offer other source options such as water extraction. This might be a
useful place to start.


SNIP


For very soft water its matterless. Basically there are heat stores on
the market with the body of the vessel holding the heat and the hot
tap supply being heated by passing through a coil within the body of
the store. Works fine but if the inside of the coil scales up due to
hard water its an expensive thing to sort out!

SNIP

HTH John