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#1
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Hi all
I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. Cheers Jim |
#2
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote:
Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger, sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of flex buried in the wall...... As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a few other nasties. -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#3
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Moving sockets 6 inches
"The Wanderer" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger, sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of flex buried in the wall...... As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a few other nasties. What did you do to correct -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#4
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" wrote:
Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. Cheers Jim Go to the next socket along and replace the existing cable with a piece the correct length . |
#5
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said:
Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. Cheers Jim Yes. You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool. Cut the outer jacket from the end of each cable to a length of about 40-50mm, then cut the conductors, staggering them. The idea is not to have the crimp connectors all in one position. Put green/yellow sleeving on the bare conductor of each and then crimp each conductor into a barrel connector of the correct size. Finally take some heatshrink sleeving, ideally with hot melt glue already inside and then shrink it onto the cable assembly with a heat gun. This meets the electrical and mechanical requirements. |
#6
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Jim wrote:
Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. There is indeed. Described here in some detail: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?...Cable_crimping -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#7
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Hall coughed up some electrons that declared:
On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. Cheers Jim Yes. You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool. May I just add for the OP: "Decent" means a proper ratchet crimper with compatible crimps. Cheers Tim |
#8
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On 2008-07-24 01:04:11 +0100, Tim S said:
Andy Hall coughed up some electrons that declared: On 2008-07-23 22:06:19 +0100, "Jim" said: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. Cheers Jim Yes. You need to have some crimp connectors and a decent crimping tool. May I just add for the OP: "Decent" means a proper ratchet crimper with compatible crimps. Cheers Tim Yes it does indeed. Looking at web sites such as TLC, it's about £20 for a ratchet job vs. £13 for without. The important point is getting consistency. Crimps are about £3 for 100. There are kits around with a tool plus assortment of crimps. The trouble is that most have the simple, basic squeeze tool and the crimps are not always that great. RS et al. do some decent ones with several hundred crimps, but prices are gtting to the £100 range, which unless one is going to use the crimps probably aren't worth it. Nonetheless, I think that an electrical wholesaler like TLC or WF would be the place to look for both the tool and the crimps as opposed to a DIY store which will tend to sell the cheap non-ratchet kits. |
#9
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote:
"The Wanderer" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger, sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of flex buried in the wall...... As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a few other nasties. What did you do to correct Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an aquarium which the previous owner had. And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in flex. And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was actually full of water and still alive. And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped, the cores separated and then just left. I could go on...... -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#10
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Thanks to all
I have a ratchett crimper, connectors and heat shrink in the garage so looks like I'm good to go. Cheers Jim |
#11
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On 2008-07-24 08:24:00 +0100, "Jim" said:
Thanks to all I have a ratchett crimper, connectors and heat shrink in the garage so looks like I'm good to go. Cheers Jim Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes. |
#12
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Moving sockets 6 inches
The Wanderer wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote: "The Wanderer" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger, sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of flex buried in the wall...... As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a few other nasties. What did you do to correct Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an aquarium which the previous owner had. And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in flex. And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was actually full of water and still alive. And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped, the cores separated and then just left. I could go on...... So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as several others have suggested? |
#13
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Hall wrote:
Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes. One final point - is the circuit RCD protected? Where a circuit is extended the 17th edition wiring regs now apply to the new section, even if it is only 6 in. long! RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls. If the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one should, strictly speaking, be added. -- Andy |
#14
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Wade wrote:
RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls. If the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one should, strictly speaking, be added. If the supply is RCD protected, does that count? -- JGH - who doens't waht to throw away his well-thumbed 16th Ed. |
#15
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Moving sockets 6 inches
jgharston wrote:
If the supply is RCD protected, does that count? What do you mean by "the supply"? If you mean the supply to the circuit in question, i.e. there's an RCD in the consumer unit then yes, that's exactly what's needed. If you mean that there's whole-house 30 mA RCD, then that will satisfy the requirements I mentioned for additional protection but it's non-compliant in other respects, viz. the 314 group of regulations (division of installation for safety and convenience, etc). -- Andy |
#16
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:
The Wanderer wrote: On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:47:40 +0100, Jim wrote: "The Wanderer" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:06:19 +0100, Jim wrote: Hi all I need to move a couple of sockets by about 6 inches but there's no spare cable to play with. Is there an approved method for extending cables if the 'extension' is to be plastered over. No, no, don't even think about it - this where the true amateur bodger, sorry DIYer, will resort to chocolate strip, some pvc tape and a foot of flex buried in the wall...... As it happens I've corrected similar in my present house, amongst quite a few other nasties. What did you do to correct Did away with the particular socket, which had been installed for an aquarium which the previous owner had. And the outside lights that had been wired off the back of a 13A socket in flex. And the two-way switching to a pool light that had connector strip in an old plastic paint tub set into the paving around the pool and that was actually full of water and still alive. And the bare end of live cable I found in the loft that had been stripped, the cores separated and then just left. I could go on...... So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as several others have suggested? Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth. I have a personal aversion to joints in cable runs if its at all possible to avoid them. All right, my experience is in power distribution, but u/g cables per se don't go faulty, it's invariably the joints that fault. -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#17
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Wade wrote:
jgharston wrote: If the supply is RCD protected, does that count? What do you mean by "the supply"? *If you mean the supply to the circuit in question, i.e. there's an RCD in the consumer unit then yes, that's exactly what's needed. An RCD between the meter and the consumer unit, as per http://mdfs.net/Docs/Electrical/Supp...ple/layout.htm -- JGH |
#18
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Moving sockets 6 inches
The Wanderer wrote:
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote: So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as several others have suggested? Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth. You certainly implied that. Mine was a genuine question, not an attempt to put words into your mouth. Next year I will be renewing our kitchen, and one of the issues I am facing is how best to relocate some of the power points. |
#19
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Moving sockets 6 inches
jgharston wrote:
An RCD between the meter and the consumer unit, as per http://mdfs.net/Docs/Electrical/Supp...ple/layout.htm Not recommended, but I suppose that if the flats are small and there's some emergency lighting provision it might be judged as compliant. -- Andy |
#20
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Moving sockets 6 inches
On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:28:57 +0100, Bruce wrote:
The Wanderer wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:31:57 +0100, Bruce wrote: So you don't believe that crimping the cables is a viable option, as several others have suggested? Did I say that? I think you're trying to put words in my mouth. You certainly implied that. Mine was a genuine question, not an attempt to put words into your mouth. Next year I will be renewing our kitchen, and one of the issues I am facing is how best to relocate some of the power points. Bite the bullet and rewire for the kitchen. That's what I did, got all the sockets where SWMBO wanted them, rehashed the lighting. Now I *know* it's a good job. -- the dot wanderer at tesco dot net |
#21
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Hall wrote:
Nonetheless, I think that an electrical wholesaler like TLC or WF would be the place to look for both the tool and the crimps as opposed to a DIY store which will tend to sell the cheap non-ratchet kits. Not only that, find a good ratchet crimp tool. There are some poor rachet crimp tools about - the street market specials don't give consistancy either. I bought twice, the replacement from Maplin was OK ... -- Adrian C |
#22
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andy Wade wrote:
Andy Hall wrote: Obviously test before you bury in plaster, but yes. One final point - is the circuit RCD protected? Where a circuit is extended the 17th edition wiring regs now apply to the new section, even if it is only 6 in. long! RCD protection (30 mA) is now required for all general-use 13 A sockets and also for unprotected cables buried less then 50 mm deep in walls. If the circuit is part of an older installation with no RCD then one should, strictly speaking, be added. Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A isolator. Is that (still) acceptible? Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago. Richard |
#23
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Moving sockets 6 inches
In article ,
Richard writes: Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A isolator. Is that (still) acceptible? 80A is a common contact rating found on RCDs, but 80mA isn't a common trip rating. Are you sure you read that right? -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#24
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Richard wrote:
Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A isolator. Is that (still) acceptible? It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since one fault loses you all power and lights. Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago. They would be unlikely to comment since it is a common arrangement, and for a time (15th edition) was considered an appropriate way of doing things. (since it was (rightly) believed that the RCD would result in a reduction of serious electric shock accidents, but the consequences of plunging a house into darkness unexpectedly had not been understood). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#25
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Huge wrote:
On 2008-07-24, John Rumm wrote: Richard wrote: Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A isolator. Is that (still) acceptible? It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since one fault loses you all power and lights. In the 15 years we've lived here, our similar arrangement has only ever lost us "all power and lights" when some idiot (me) drilled through a ringmain. OTOH, the power compnay plunges us into darkness several times a year. Sometimes several times a day. So I'm not going to lay awake nights worrying about it, and I suggest the OP does likewise. There are two issues here really. One is the nuisance factor in day to day life, and the other is the genuine fault scenario. Peoples perception of problems with the single RCD setup seem to be governed by the former, while it is the latter that in many cases has more potential to bite you. Some single RCD setups (like yours, or the setup at my mum's previous place) never trip unexpectedly, and hence can lead you to assume there is little or no risk. Others, like that which was here when we moved it, tripped any time a horse farted or so it seemed[1] and was a right royal pain in the arse. Hence there was a big motivation to fix it for that reason alone. (The supply also goes off with some regularity here as well - hence why I am fitting emergency lights in strategic places. Having navigated my way back to the CU in total darkness on a few occasions when it was just a RCD trip, it was apparent that to get the whole family out, possibly in the presence of smoke, in the same situation would be very difficult) However the fact that you get no nuisance trips does not mitigate the problem of being left in an awkward situation in complete darkness when the RCD does its job protecting you from a real fault. This may be an exceedingly rare event. How much of a problem this actually is will vary greatly on circumstances. Someone in a well street lit road, young and mobile enough to find their way back to the CU with no difficulty is not really under any risk. Old, infirm, out in the sticks, up a couple of flights of awkward stairs etc and the picture is very different. So my advice would in some circumstances concur with yours, but only after one has assessed their circumstances and thought through what factors are going to come into play. [1] Combination of ten circuits including several outdoor ones all protected on one over sensitive 30mA trip RCD. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#26
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Moving sockets 6 inches
John Rumm wrote:
Richard wrote: Hmm. My place has an 80mA RCD protecting the 13A sockets. It's a standalone RCD feeding the CU which contains only a double pole 100A isolator. Is that (still) acceptible? It is probably a 30mA trip RCD with 80A switching capacity. If that is the only CU, then no it is not an acceptable solution these days, since one fault loses you all power and lights. Lecky board raised no eyebrows and, in fact re-located it to a more convenient location relative to the new CUs that were subsequently installed, when installing my dual rate meter 8 years ago. They would be unlikely to comment since it is a common arrangement, and for a time (15th edition) was considered an appropriate way of doing things. (since it was (rightly) believed that the RCD would result in a reduction of serious electric shock accidents, but the consequences of plunging a house into darkness unexpectedly had not been understood). I suspect it is more to do with 'reasonable' cost. When the 15th regs were being prepared (and these things take time to be approved and issued) the RCD was an expensive device. To require people to have 2 or 3 was probably not reasonable, and losing all the lights was compared to electrocution. However they are so cheap that by the time the next regs come out they will probably require 2 for lights and 2 or 3 for everything else - just my guess |
#27
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
80A is a common contact rating found on RCDs, but 80mA isn't a common trip rating. Are you sure you read that right? Quite right. I miss-remembered the rating. It's an MK LN6180 item: 100mA trip, rated at 80A For the benefit of later contributors, and with apologies for being economical with the information earlier, this is the setup: LN6180 feeds one CU which supports kitchen, GF, 1F and attic ring mains, and oven, immersion heater and outside socket. Second CU (no RCD) supports GF and upstairs lighting, freezer and fridge supplies, boiler and garage (via it's own 30mA RCD CU). I suspect that the LN6180 was installed by the previous owners because of frequent nuisance tripping - but I cannot be certain. Richard |
#28
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Moving sockets 6 inches
Chewbacca wrote:
I suspect it is more to do with 'reasonable' cost. When the 15th regs were being prepared (and these things take time to be approved and issued) the RCD was an expensive device. To require people to have 2 or 3 was probably not reasonable, and losing all the lights was compared to Yeahbut, many split load setups still only have one RCD... -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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