We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing, decorating
and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it" I'll be paying
OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to manage it myself
and bring in the trades as needed.
Has anyone any experience of doing this or any advice?

Dave S

Can you please explain why you will be "paying over the top"?
In what way will this happen?

In article ,
Dave wrote:
We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing,
decorating and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it"
I'll be paying OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to
manage it myself and bring in the trades as needed. Has anyone any
experience of doing this or any advice?

Unless you're experienced at co-ordinating this sort of project, you're
likely to get taken to the cleaners by the workmen if you try to organize
it yourself.

Of course, you might get taken to the cleaners by the builder too, but
that's only one person to fight with.

It's really the job for a Clerk of Works - or in most domestic
applications an architect - if you know of a good one.

--
*i souport publik edekashun.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Mike Taylor" wrote in
message ...
Can you please explain why you will be "paying over the top"?
In what way will this happen?

When I last had work done I spoke to the various guys that the builder had
brought in and found that there was a difference in the rate I was being
charged and the rate that they would have charged if they were working
direct. In particular, the guy who did the windows apparently had to give a
sizeable "bung" (his word) to the builder.
I know of people who say they saved up to half the builder quote by managing
their own builds.
It would be good to hear some first hand experiences.

Dave S

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Mike Taylor" wrote in
message ...
Can you please explain why you will be "paying over the top"?
In what way will this happen?

When I last had work done I spoke to the various guys that the builder had
brought in and found that there was a difference in the rate I was being
charged and the rate that they would have charged if they were working
direct. In particular, the guy who did the windows apparently had to give
a
sizeable "bung" (his word) to the builder.
I know of people who say they saved up to half the builder quote by
managing
their own builds.
It would be good to hear some first hand experiences.

Dave S



You *may* save some money - if you can cope with the higher stress levels
involved.

Don't forget, though, that it's all down to you. If the windows supplied by
the window man don't fit the hole left by the builder, it's *your* problem.
If you have the pay the plasterer to wait around because the electrician
hasn't finished on time, it's *your* problem. Etc.

If you employ a builder to manage the lot, all this becomes *his* problem.

When I had an extension built last year, I did the design and got it through
planning on my own, and then drew the detailed construction drawings (with
help from various books plus a very obliging BCO) - but employed a builder
to do all the work (except the electrics, which i did myself). In addition
to what he did himself, the builder was responsible for scaffolding,
roofing, plastering, carpentry etc. (there was no plumbing involved).

This arrangement worked very well, and we are very pleased with the result.

Roger

Off you go then and arrange all the trades at exactly the correct time.
It is really easy to do this and save your self some money but please give a
qualified report when the job is finished on exactly how much you saved and
how easy it was to get all the different trades to combine and work
together.

I find as a building contractor that yes I do put a percentage on other
peoples work but what people dont realise is who pays for the general skips
to clear the general rubbish, say the packing from the boiler unit, the off
cuts from the plasterboard, the odds and ends of mortar over. Oh you are
going to provide that OK. What about the phone calls liasing and programming
the works and trades. The extra cost to the electrician because the
carpenter had not finished a stud wall, The VAT collection and payment. The
Brickie walking off because you forgot to get the cement etc.

A quality contractor does not recieve a "BUNG" as you put it he just adds
whatever percentage he wants on the sub-contractor. It is down to you to
obtain several quotations on a drawing and specification from several
quality contractors. Off Course go to Old Hopalong Cassidy down the road and
get a really cheap price and then wait to put the work right yourself later.

Let us all know how you get on please

I would suggest that if you need to ask the question, then you are not
experienced enough to manage the work.

You can only save money if you are able to assemble the correct people at
the correct time, and even then, how do you know that the work quality and
the prices are as they should be?

If you are in the building trade, then you could do it, but if you don't
have that building knowledge, then it is a risk.

Don't assume that the builder is charging you OTT prices, the % profit is
not that big on the average extension job.

dg

"Dave" wrote in message
...
We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing, decorating
and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it" I'll be
paying
OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to manage it myself
and bring in the trades as needed.
Has anyone any experience of doing this or any advice?

Dave S

In article ,
Dave wrote:
When I last had work done I spoke to the various guys that the builder
had brought in and found that there was a difference in the rate I was
being charged and the rate that they would have charged if they were
working direct. In particular, the guy who did the windows apparently
had to give a sizeable "bung" (his word) to the builder.

A half decent builder will have the key personnel - like chippy, brickie,
labourer etc on his books already, and will pay them some sort of retainer
if not full wages when there's no work on for whatever reason. So like any
employer he is going to charge you more than he pays them - or do you
really think your garage mechanic gets 110 quid an hour? ;-)

I know of people who say they saved up to half the builder quote by
managing their own builds.

I know of people who've tried and made a mess of it. IMHO, you need a deal
of experience to co-ordinate this sort of thing, and if you had it you
wouldn't be asking.

It would be good to hear some first hand experiences.

If money above all else is the prime consideration and you have plenty of
time on your hands and an even temperament, it might be worth a try.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave wrote:
When I last had work done I spoke to the various guys that the builder
had brought in and found that there was a difference in the rate I was
being charged and the rate that they would have charged if they were
working direct. In particular, the guy who did the windows apparently
had to give a sizeable "bung" (his word) to the builder.

A half decent builder will have the key personnel - like chippy, brickie,
labourer etc on his books already, and will pay them some sort of retainer
if not full wages when there's no work on for whatever reason. So like any
employer he is going to charge you more than he pays them - or do you
really think your garage mechanic gets 110 quid an hour? ;-)

I know of people who say they saved up to half the builder quote by
managing their own builds.

I know of people who've tried and made a mess of it. IMHO, you need a deal
of experience to co-ordinate this sort of thing, and if you had it you
wouldn't be asking.

It would be good to hear some first hand experiences.

If money above all else is the prime consideration and you have plenty of
time on your hands and an even temperament, it might be worth a try.


I'd agree with Dave. When we had our first extension built, I did all the PM
worked, aranging for skips, plant hire, builders, materials. I guess I saved
maybe 10%, possibly 15% tops. On a £15k project, that was about £1k - £1.2k.
Some of the savings were eroded as I was not getting the sort of discounts
the builder would get. As a good long term customer, he might have got 15%
discount, whereas I was only managing to get say 5%. And you need to factor
in how much your time is worth, because you are going to spend a lot of time
and effort chasing around.

And then there's unforseen expenses. For example, when digging the footing,
the compressor for the pneumatic drill gave up the ghost. Unfortunately the
hire firm didn't have a spare, so I had to chase around and hire another,
whilst paying the workmen and waiting for the refund from the first hire
shop.

At the end of the day, when we had the second storey built a couple of years
later, I used the same builder but left all the PM work to him. It really
wasn't worth the hassle for the savings.

If you do want to save a bob or two, try doing some of the work yourself.
For example, in both cases I did all the plumbing and wiring. One unforseen
saving was that having agreed the timescale for completion of wiring and
plumbing, the builder disappeared completely until the agreed date. As a
result, there was no charge at all during the week in question.

hth
Clive

"dg" wrote in message


I would suggest that if you need to ask the question, then you are not
experienced enough to manage the work.

That's a little hard isn't it? This is a do it yourself newsgroup after
all. Being experienced means you started somewhere. Why not start at the
top? He knows he needs to hire professionals. That's a good start.

You can only save money if you are able to assemble the correct people at
the correct time..

Once he has had a series of quotes he only needs to ensure the cheapest
is good at his job and will arrive sooner or later. Timing is only
important for the purpose of having the ground clear for the next trade.

Don't assume that the builder is charging you OTT prices, the % profit is
not that big on the average extension job.

On the other hand don't assume that because a builder might be getting
greater discounts for materials etc, he is going to pass that on. It's
all a matter of comparing quotes and whatever.

How do you sack a man the builder has hired? If the original poster is
willing to live with half a house and prepared to give it a go I would
encourage him. The steep learning curve will stand him in good stead for
his next job. If it doesn't kill him it might make him repentant.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Dave" wrote in message
...
We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing, decorating
and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it" I'll be
paying
OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to manage it myself
and bring in the trades as needed.
Has anyone any experience of doing this or any advice?

Dave S



As you need the ground work done first, before anything else can go on top,
do you understand the requirements of ground drainage and sewerage/waste
water removal needs for your house ? Are you working from predefined plans
that have already been laid down and passed by an architect or local
authority planning dept' ?

There is a lot more to do than you may think, so be very careful where you
start, as it is the most important part of the job. You don't get a good
building on bad foundations, so do you understand the why's and wherefore's
of even beginning the build ?

Once the skin is up and weather tight, then do you understand what comes
next ? Do you do the plumbing and electrics, or do you have the ceiling
lined and lagged ? Is the drainage in place ?

If you frown at any of these questions, then I'd advise you to get someone
else to manage the work. If you are laughing at my questions and saying to
yourself "Of course I know all these things" then go ahead and do the
management.


---
www.basecuritysystems.no-ip.com

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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In article lgate.org,
Michael Mcneil wrote:
You can only save money if you are able to assemble the correct people at
the correct time..

Once he has had a series of quotes he only needs to ensure the cheapest
is good at his job and will arrive sooner or later. Timing is only
important for the purpose of having the ground clear for the next trade.

If you're intending employing a trade for wages only, they'll expect to be
supervised and won't really think for themselves. Any snags and they'll
just sit around waiting for them to be sorted. That's the part the builder
or foreman in charge will traditionally do.

You might be lucky and find a working chippie who is willing to take on
this task as well as his own work, but IMHO this won't be easy - or cheap.

*All* good tradesmen are in short supply these days, so you'd have to ask
yourself *why* they would want to work for you direct unless there's
something in it for them.

Could be they are all sitting around begging for work in your area, but
somehow I doubt it.

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

I didn't mean to be harsh, but I just meant to illustrate that it's not just
a case of cutting out the builder and then reaping his profits. There are
lots of potential pitfalls in managing multiple tradespeople, and if you are
not totally clued up then you could very easily not only loose the savings
you hoped for, but also pay more into the bargain.

Asking on this group for advice on how deep a foundation should be is one
thing, asking how to deal with a groundworker who has to divert drains and
wants extra money, which will then hold up the concrete pour and the
bricklayer, who then can't fit you in for another 3 weeks, so you ask the
ground worker to set the walls out and then find that they are out of square
and out of level etc etc, is another.

You need to know how to deal with the things you don't know about, because
that's where your money goes.

dg


"Michael Mcneil" wrote in message
news:fb06ed73b51f385bc78640fb713d0616.45219@mygate .mailgate.org...
"dg" wrote in message


I would suggest that if you need to ask the question, then you are not
experienced enough to manage the work.

That's a little hard isn't it? This is a do it yourself newsgroup after
all. Being experienced means you started somewhere. Why not start at the
top? He knows he needs to hire professionals. That's a good start.

You can only save money if you are able to assemble the correct people
at
the correct time..

Once he has had a series of quotes he only needs to ensure the cheapest
is good at his job and will arrive sooner or later. Timing is only
important for the purpose of having the ground clear for the next trade.

Don't assume that the builder is charging you OTT prices, the % profit
is
not that big on the average extension job.

On the other hand don't assume that because a builder might be getting
greater discounts for materials etc, he is going to pass that on. It's
all a matter of comparing quotes and whatever.

How do you sack a man the builder has hired? If the original poster is
willing to live with half a house and prepared to give it a go I would
encourage him. The steep learning curve will stand him in good stead for
his next job. If it doesn't kill him it might make him repentant.


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

I have gone both routes

IMHO there are three things that make / break it

1) The people
Is the guy managing the build any good ?
Do you have all the contacts to get all the trades in, without getting cowboys or excuse merchants.

2) Speed
If you want to avaoid people sat arround wating for the previous guy who has overeun you need to leave gaps in the schedule, which means it takes longer. If you have
done any form or project management this is part of the skill.

3) How much you want to do
Your general guy will probabably do all the bits the other guys skip out, so if the plaster leaves a mess on the follr someone has to clean it. Someone has to provide
the bacon butties.

On my current project, its in a rural area, I interviewed a number of roofers, foend one that I could work with, and then work on his recomendations as to who he
knows does a good job of other trades. I now have two really good people I trust (roofer, digger driver), and wish to add one more - brickie. I will then fill in the
gaps between these three guys untill I have the building up. Most of the interanl trades I can DIY.

Architect is still an issue, I just sacked the last guy cause I could not work with him. You need to be able to have a good working relationship with the acitect.

"just do X why you are here" = HUGE COST HIKE. Get quotes for the work, and stick to it.
"just do X" works if you pay per hour, and supply materials then you are controling the cost.

Rick


On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:41:05 +0100, "Dave" wrote:
We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing, decorating
and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it" I'll be paying
OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to manage it myself
and bring in the trades as needed.
Has anyone any experience of doing this or any advice?

Dave S

"Rick Dipper" wrote in message
...
I have gone both routes

IMHO there are three things that make / break it

1) The people
Is the guy managing the build any good ?
Do you have all the contacts to get all the trades in, without getting
cowboys or excuse merchants.

2) Speed
If you want to avaoid people sat arround wating for the previous guy who
has overeun you need to leave gaps in the schedule, which means it takes
longer. If you have
done any form or project management this is part of the skill.

3) How much you want to do
Your general guy will probabably do all the bits the other guys skip out,
so if the plaster leaves a mess on the follr someone has to clean it.
Someone has to provide
the bacon butties.

On my current project, its in a rural area, I interviewed a number of
roofers, foend one that I could work with, and then work on his
recomendations as to who he
knows does a good job of other trades. I now have two really good people I
trust (roofer, digger driver), and wish to add one more - brickie. I will
then fill in the
gaps between these three guys untill I have the building up. Most of the
interanl trades I can DIY.

Architect is still an issue, I just sacked the last guy cause I could not
work with him. You need to be able to have a good working relationship with
the acitect.

"just do X why you are here" = HUGE COST HIKE. Get quotes for the work,
and stick to it.
"just do X" works if you pay per hour, and supply materials then you are
controling the cost.

Rick


On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:41:05 +0100, "Dave" wrote:
We're about to get some building work done involving the usual mix of
groundwork, brickwork, roofing, windows, plastering, plumbing,
decorating
and electrics. I know that if I just get a builder to "do it" I'll be
paying
OTT for the various trades but am unsure about whether to manage it
myself
and bring in the trades as needed.
Has anyone any experience of doing this or any advice?

Dave S

Thanks Rick - and thanks also to everyone else that's replied.

Complex Project Management is what I spend some of my working days doing so
that doesn't worry me, nor do the electrics and plumbing, but I don't
working in the building industry and finding good brickies and plasterers
who will turn-up when they say they will is a bit of a concern.
I'm not sure which way to swing at the moment but once we've got Building
Regs approval I'll get some quotes and decide. If I self-manage I'll report
back.

Dave S