Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to 2.5Kg/cm
(2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it reaches pressure
it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not enough for most rooms.
So we get a varying water supply from a trickle to a surge. If we leave the
pump on continuously we use far too much electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a header tank
4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same as a
pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

--
Mark BR

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a trickle to
a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far too much
electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a header
tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

See the makers, but I doubt it. Get a pump with a lower switching
differential. Also put a non return valve just before the pump. Between the
valve and pump install a potable pressure vessel. This will help prevent
pump cavitation and a more even water distribution. Some pumps come with
the vessel as a set. How is hot water supplied? Via a cylinder? Vented?
Unvented?

If you get anew pump use the old as a backup.

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same as a
pump that can give a 35m lift?

Yep. 1 bar = 10 metres

Mark BR wrote:
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same
as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Machine Mart do a Clarke one that will give - 3.5-5.2 bar Maximum head
(lift height) 52M

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...el-booster-pum



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes


Mark BR wrote:
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same
as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Machine Mart do a Clarke one that will give - 3.5-5.2 bar Maximum head
(lift height) 52M

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-1in-stainless
-steel-booster-pum

I've never seen a Machine Mart depot in Bangkok

--
geoff

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mark BR wrote:

Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same
as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

You say the pump switches off at 3.5bar - so this is probably a function of
the pressure switch rather than the pump per se. Maybe the pump itself is
capable of more than this. Can the pressure switch be adjusted or replaced.

Is there an accummulator in the system which can maintain pressure as the
water is drawn off?
--
Cheers,
Roger
______
Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

geoff wrote:
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes


Mark BR wrote:
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the
same as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Machine Mart do a Clarke one that will give - 3.5-5.2 bar Maximum
head (lift height) 52M

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-1in-stainless
-steel-booster-pum

I've never seen a Machine Mart depot in Bangkok

Don't UPS or Fed Ex or DHL deliver out there then? If the OP is posting on
a UK newsgroup one assumes he might be UK based.

Or, you could use a very long pipe.....



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes


geoff wrote:
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes


Mark BR wrote:
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the
same as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Machine Mart do a Clarke one that will give - 3.5-5.2 bar Maximum
head (lift height) 52M

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-1in-stainless
-steel-booster-pum

I've never seen a Machine Mart depot in Bangkok

Don't UPS or Fed Ex or DHL deliver out there then?

believe it or not, you can buy pumps out there, although, it sounds more
like being primarily a sensor hysteresis problem to me

If the OP is posting on
a UK newsgroup one assumes he might be UK based.

he obviously know ukdiy is the FOAK


Or, you could use a very long pipe.....

it depends what you want to smoke


--
geoff

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

See the makers, but I doubt it. Get a pump with a lower switching
differential. Also put a non return valve just before the pump.
Between the valve and pump install a potable pressure vessel. This
will help prevent pump cavitation and a more even water distribution.
Some pumps come with the vessel as a set. How is hot water supplied?
Via a cylinder? Vented? Unvented?

If you get anew pump use the old as a backup.

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the
same as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Yep. 1 bar = 10 metres

Thanks, a lower switching differential would work but most seem to be about
0.7 bar between on and off. As the maximum the pump can achieve is 2.5 bar,
and that is the minimum acceptable then any differential is too much - so we
do need to be able to pump more.

We do have a pressure vessel and a non-return valve. Improving these did
improve the system but not by much.

The cost of the pump is not much of a problem, locally we can get pumps
(motor and water pump part) with 30m lifts for around £50. But we can't
really afford to get one and find out it is the wrong one, so I'm trying to
get information.

Thanks for your comments

--
Mark BR

The Medway Handyman wrote:
geoff wrote:
In message , The Medway
Handyman writes


Mark BR wrote:
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple

SNIP

Machine Mart do a Clarke one that will give - 3.5-5.2 bar Maximum
head (lift height) 52M

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/pr...-1in-stainless
-steel-booster-pum

I've never seen a Machine Mart depot in Bangkok

Don't UPS or Fed Ex or DHL deliver out there then? If the OP is
posting on a UK newsgroup one assumes he might be UK based.

Or, you could use a very long pipe.....

Like the long pipe, is the UK lower than Thailand?

Thanks for the comment, there is no problem getting pumps and fittings, just
the advice varies from poor to bad.

But you have confirmed that if I get a pump with a 35 m lift it will give me
3.5 bar. All the local pumps show the lift but do not talk about pressure
and come with no information except what is on the pump plate.

Thanks.

--
Mark BR

Roger Mills wrote:
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Mark BR wrote:

Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?
I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.
We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same
as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

You say the pump switches off at 3.5bar - so this is probably a
function of the pressure switch rather than the pump per se. Maybe
the pump itself is capable of more than this. Can the pressure switch
be adjusted or replaced.
Is there an accummulator in the system which can maintain pressure as
the water is drawn off?

It is the pressure switch that turns the pump off, but the maximum the pump
can get the pressure to is 2.5 bar even if we left it switched on for a few
months!

We do have a pressure tank that keeps the pressure up for a few minutes, up
to 6 minutes but then it slowly drops.

Thanks for the comments
--
Mark BR

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a trickle to
a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far too much
electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a header
tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same as a
pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

--
Mark BR

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and the rest of
the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns the pump on (So in
parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and only turn
off when the pressure has reached the setting of the pressure switch and
there is no water flowing out of the pressure vessel.

I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it seems to work well for
me!

"Sparks" wrote in message
...
"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a trickle to
a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far too much
electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a header
tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the same as
a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

--
Mark BR

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and the rest
of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns the pump on (So
in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and only
turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of the pressure switch
and there is no water flowing out of the pressure vessel.

I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it seems to work well
for me!

I was about to suggest that. You are right, a simple flow switch can solve
the problem and a little re-wiring around the pressure switch.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Sparks" wrote in message
...
"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
Can a plumber give me a simple answer to what I think is a simple
question?

I'm working with a building in Thailand to improve the water supply.
Currently we have a pump and pressure tank that can just get up to
2.5Kg/cm (2.5 bar). This pressure is just enough. Problem is when it
reaches pressure it switches off and only comes back at 1.7 bar, not
enough for most rooms. So we get a varying water supply from a
trickle to a surge. If we leave the pump on continuously we use far
too much electricity.

We have a lovely electric pump, 8 amp so plenty of power, and a
header tank 4 metres above the pump.

Can I just change the water pump part - is that the impeller?

If I change it for a pump that can get up to 3.5 bar is that the
same as a pump that can give a 35m lift?

Thanks,

--
Mark BR

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and the
rest of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns the
pump on (So in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and
only turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of the
pressure switch and there is no water flowing out of the pressure
vessel. I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it seems to
work
well for me!

I was about to suggest that. You are right, a simple flow switch can
solve the problem and a little re-wiring around the pressure switch.

I had considered a flow switch but could only find information on little
laboratory systems - we have 1.25" PVC pipework. It would be easy to fit if
I can find one! I'll have to go to the shops on Wednesday - a 3 day holiday
out here for the new year!

--
Mark BR

wrote:
On 13 Apr,
"Mark BR" wrote:

But you have confirmed that if I get a pump with a 35 m lift it will
give me 3.5 bar. All the local pumps show the lift but do not talk
about pressure and come with no information except what is on the
pump plate.

Fitting a more powerful pump, and resetting the pressure switch to
higher values will work, but bear in mind the working pressure rating
of the pressure vessel. It may need replacing. Also the air pressure
in the pressure vessel may need increasing if the pump cycles too
much.

Most pumps are rated at the number of starts per hour. This needs to
be taken into account when sizing the pressure vessel.

The pressure tank is rated up to 4 bar, so we are within the limits. My main
worry is leaks in the system if we increase the pressure too much, most of
the metal pipework is corroding, the taps leak and the PVC joins are not the
worlds best quality workmanship!

I'll have to look at the number of starts per hour, hope to get it down to
between 6 and 10 an hour during the peak period and off all night. Save a
fortune in electricity.

Thanks,

--
Mark BR

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
"Sparks" wrote in message

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and the
rest of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns the
pump on (So in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and
only turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of the
pressure switch and there is no water flowing out of the pressure
vessel. I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it seems to
work
well for me!


I had considered a flow switch but could only find information on little
laboratory systems - we have 1.25" PVC pipework. It would be easy to fit
if I can find one! I'll have to go to the shops on Wednesday - a 3 day
holiday out here for the new year!



Crikey, that's HUGE! we use that sort of pipe for the waste out of the
bath!!

Why is it so big - is it supplying a lot of people/apartments?

"Sparks" wrote in message
...

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
"Sparks" wrote in message

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and the
rest of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns the
pump on (So in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and
only turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of the
pressure switch and there is no water flowing out of the pressure
vessel. I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it seems to
work
well for me!

I had considered a flow switch but could only find information on little
laboratory systems - we have 1.25" PVC pipework. It would be easy to fit
if I can find one! I'll have to go to the shops on Wednesday - a 3 day
holiday out here for the new year!

Crikey, that's HUGE! we use that sort of pipe for the waste out of the
bath!!

Why is it so big - is it supplying a lot of people/apartments?

And a pump only costs £50.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Sparks" wrote in message
...

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
"Sparks" wrote in message

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and
the rest of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns
the pump on (So in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water, and
only turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of the
pressure switch and there is no water flowing out of the pressure
vessel. I have this setup with my irrigation system setup, it
seems to work
well for me!

I had considered a flow switch but could only find information on
little laboratory systems - we have 1.25" PVC pipework. It would be
easy to fit if I can find one! I'll have to go to the shops on
Wednesday - a 3 day holiday out here for the new year!

Crikey, that's HUGE! we use that sort of pipe for the waste out of
the bath!!

Why is it so big - is it supplying a lot of people/apartments?

And a pump only costs £50.

Supplying 14 appartments.

Prices are reasonable - but then plumbers only get about £5 a day.

When in the UK I can not believe the prices. On example, flexible hoses 20p
each, screwfix £1.75. Who keeps this profit?

Thanks for all the advice, I now feel confident to go out again and sort the
problem.

--
Mark BR

Mark BR wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Sparks" wrote in message
...

"Mark BR" wrote in message
...
"Sparks" wrote in message

You could install a flow switch between the pressure vessel and
the rest of the plumbing, wired so when it detects flow, it turns
the pump on (So in parallel with the current pressure switch).

This way, the pump will always run when you are running water,
and only turn off when the pressure has reached the setting of
the pressure switch and there is no water flowing out of the
pressure vessel. I have this setup with my irrigation system
setup, it seems to work
well for me!

I had considered a flow switch but could only find information on
little laboratory systems - we have 1.25" PVC pipework. It would be
easy to fit if I can find one! I'll have to go to the shops on
Wednesday - a 3 day holiday out here for the new year!

Crikey, that's HUGE! we use that sort of pipe for the waste out of
the bath!!

Why is it so big - is it supplying a lot of people/apartments?

And a pump only costs £50.

Supplying 14 appartments.

Prices are reasonable - but then plumbers only get about £5 a day.

When in the UK I can not believe the prices. On example, flexible
hoses 20p each, screwfix £1.75. Who keeps this profit?

Homebase £6.99 if we are talking 15mm each end x 300mm long.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257


Thanks for all the advice, I now feel confident to go out again and
sort the problem.