Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving would be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ). Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without having
to descale first?

Or are the major savings made in reduced detergent usage?

I've seen running costs listed at about £20 per person per year, then add
the initial outlay of £4-500+, and I can't quite get to grips with what
savings will be made.

On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving would be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ).
Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without having
to descale first?

Or are the major savings made in reduced detergent usage?

I've seen running costs listed at about £20 per person per year, then add
the initial outlay of £4-500+, and I can't quite get to grips with what
savings will be made.

I've had a softener (same one) for over 20 years and it's still going strong.

The claimed saving in heating cost would only relate to hot water and
to be honest, the figures are virtually impossible to compute because
there are so many ifs, ands and buts.

With hard water, the coil in the HW cylinder will scale up. This
produces an increasing thickness of insulating scale on the coil and
this reduces the heat transfer rate from the boiler to the water.
Thus the cylinder takes longer to heat. The additional effect is that
the boiler may not be able to transfer all the heat it's producing and
will tend to cycle on and off quite frequently - called short cycling.
This is not efficient operation. Putting a number on that is very
difficult, but there is something there. Eventually the cylinder will
have to be replaced so a cost there.

Domestic appliances such as washing machines will tend to scale up as
well, although that is less pronounced nowadays with detergents
operating at 40 degrees.

When a water softener is added to an already scaled system, the scale
does gradually dissolve, but it can take a long time

There are savings to be made on detergents and shampoos because less
are used. Indirectly, less cleaning materials are needed as well
because surfaces such as showers and sanitaryware do not get dosed with
hard water either.

To give you an idea..... In a household of 2 people and 2 teenagers,
our softener goes through a 25kg bag of salt (about £5.50) every three
weeks or so.

I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt.
I don't think that you will make the claimed savings on
infrastructure such as the HW system and the washing machine although
there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

On balance, you won't lose out but you won't make a killing either.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the
ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced
bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving would
be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ).
Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar
savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without
having
to descale first?

Or are the major savings made in reduced detergent usage?

I've seen running costs listed at about £20 per person per year, then add
the initial outlay of £4-500+, and I can't quite get to grips with what
savings will be made.

I've had a softener (same one) for over 20 years and it's still going
strong.

The claimed saving in heating cost would only relate to hot water and to
be honest, the figures are virtually impossible to compute because there
are so many ifs, ands and buts.

With hard water, the coil in the HW cylinder will scale up. This
produces an increasing thickness of insulating scale on the coil and this
reduces the heat transfer rate from the boiler to the water. Thus the
cylinder takes longer to heat. The additional effect is that the boiler
may not be able to transfer all the heat it's producing and will tend to
cycle on and off quite frequently - called short cycling. This is not
efficient operation. Putting a number on that is very difficult, but
there is something there. Eventually the cylinder will have to be
replaced so a cost there.

Domestic appliances such as washing machines will tend to scale up as
well, although that is less pronounced nowadays with detergents operating
at 40 degrees.

When a water softener is added to an already scaled system, the scale does
gradually dissolve, but it can take a long time

There are savings to be made on detergents and shampoos because less are
used. Indirectly, less cleaning materials are needed as well because
surfaces such as showers and sanitaryware do not get dosed with hard water
either.

To give you an idea..... In a household of 2 people and 2 teenagers, our
softener goes through a 25kg bag of salt (about £5.50) every three weeks
or so.

I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt. I
don't think that you will make the claimed savings on infrastructure such
as the HW system and the washing machine although there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

tim

"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the
ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced
bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving
would be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ).
Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar
savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without
having
to descale first?

Or are the major savings made in reduced detergent usage?

I've seen running costs listed at about £20 per person per year, then
add
the initial outlay of £4-500+, and I can't quite get to grips with what
savings will be made.

I've had a softener (same one) for over 20 years and it's still going
strong.

The claimed saving in heating cost would only relate to hot water and to
be honest, the figures are virtually impossible to compute because there
are so many ifs, ands and buts.

With hard water, the coil in the HW cylinder will scale up. This
produces an increasing thickness of insulating scale on the coil and this
reduces the heat transfer rate from the boiler to the water. Thus the
cylinder takes longer to heat. The additional effect is that the boiler
may not be able to transfer all the heat it's producing and will tend to
cycle on and off quite frequently - called short cycling. This is not
efficient operation. Putting a number on that is very difficult, but
there is something there. Eventually the cylinder will have to be
replaced so a cost there.

Domestic appliances such as washing machines will tend to scale up as
well, although that is less pronounced nowadays with detergents operating
at 40 degrees.

When a water softener is added to an already scaled system, the scale
does gradually dissolve, but it can take a long time

There are savings to be made on detergents and shampoos because less are
used. Indirectly, less cleaning materials are needed as well because
surfaces such as showers and sanitaryware do not get dosed with hard
water either.

To give you an idea..... In a household of 2 people and 2 teenagers,
our softener goes through a 25kg bag of salt (about £5.50) every three
weeks or so.

I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt. I
don't think that you will make the claimed savings on infrastructure such
as the HW system and the washing machine although there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

Thanks Andy.

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

On Jan 2, 10:10*pm, "Grumps" wrote:
Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving would be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ). Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without having
to descale first?

I wouldn't worry about it. One thing about hard water is can help to
seal any pinhole leaks.

I doubt there is any big saving for using a water softener, it's more
a matter of personal preference for bathing.

cheers,
Pete.

Grumps wrote:
Not talking about the little electrical ones that some say work, but the ion
exchange ones (swapping calcium+magnesium for sodium).

I have a few colleagues that say they're the best thing since sliced bread,
and also say that they produce cost savings too. The biggest saving would be
the quoted reduction in heating costs ( I seem to recall 12% being
mentioned ). Whilst I can see this might be the difference in heating costs
of an unscaled system vs. an old scaled up system, but can similar savings
be made by adding a softener to an already scaled-up system without having
to descale first?

Or are the major savings made in reduced detergent usage?

I've seen running costs listed at about �20 per person per year, then add
the initial outlay of �4-500+, and I can't quite get to grips with what
savings will be made.


Soap/detergent mainly, and ultimately all the tap/shower fittings which
don't scale up in a few years.

We are two people 2 dogs and currently 6 cats..VERY hard water. Use
around a £6 bag of salt a month.

A bar of soap seems to last about 6 months.

we spend very little on descalers. There is a little scaling - I do the
taps to make them sparkle every year or so.

No salt or calgon is needed in the dishwasher or washing machines.


The CH is sealed so descaler makes bugger all difference to that

I think the real cost benefit is in no dishwasher salt, and in the
length of time taps last. Or in particular shower mixers.But this is a
long payoff period.

The reason I fitted it was mainly to not have ****ty scaled up taps and
loos everywhere in a year. And no scum in the baths.

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
a £6 bag of salt a month

There are others getting their salt? AndyH quoted GBP5.50 and you've
said GBP6 but my local builders yard just raised its price from GBP 7 to
GBP8 per 25Kg bag.

--
Si

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:


In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

On 2008-01-03 13:21:49 +0000, Si $3o&m said:

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
a £6 bag of salt a month

There are others getting their salt? AndyH quoted GBP5.50 and you've
said GBP6 but my local builders yard just raised its price from GBP 7
to GBP8 per 25Kg bag.

To some extent, I think that in a lot of places, this is "why does a
dog lick its ********" pricing. Having got a water softener, people
are perhaps not that sensitive to salt prices within reason - it isn't
the biggest contributor to the shopping basket.

However, salt seems often to be sold at unlikely places. I used to
buy it 6 bags at a time at a nearby garden centre until that closed.
Then I was on the lookout for a new supplier.

Completely unrelated, I needed some new cylinders of propane for the
barbecue and the blow torch and found a supplier for those not far
away. The place is somewhat obscure. It's a farm next to a lake and
sells fishing licenses for people wanting to do that. I think that
they stock the lake or something. In addition, they sell all
different sizes of propane cylinder plus things like patio heaters, the
odd barbecue in the summer..... and salt.

At any rate, they will do 25kg bags for £5.50 for a quantity of 10,
delivered. Delivery also means that they take them to the back of
the house and stack them near to where the softener is installed.

I don't think that it's worth spending time doing a big investigation
exercise, but keeping one's eyes open may be worth it.

On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....." said:


"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:


In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

But you can. The boot is on the other foot.

The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why they
then feel slippery.

With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.

If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's not
because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477ce693@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-03 13:21:49 +0000, Si $3o&m said:

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
a £6 bag of salt a month

There are others getting their salt? AndyH quoted GBP5.50 and you've said
GBP6 but my local builders yard just raised its price from GBP 7 to GBP8
per 25Kg bag.

To some extent, I think that in a lot of places, this is "why does a dog
lick its ********" pricing. Having got a water softener, people are
perhaps not that sensitive to salt prices within reason - it isn't the
biggest contributor to the shopping basket.

However, salt seems often to be sold at unlikely places. I used to buy
it 6 bags at a time at a nearby garden centre until that closed. Then I
was on the lookout for a new supplier.

Completely unrelated, I needed some new cylinders of propane for the
barbecue and the blow torch and found a supplier for those not far away.
The place is somewhat obscure. It's a farm next to a lake and sells
fishing licenses for people wanting to do that. I think that they stock
the lake or something. In addition, they sell all different sizes of
propane cylinder plus things like patio heaters, the odd barbecue in the
summer..... and salt.

At any rate, they will do 25kg bags for £5.50 for a quantity of 10,
delivered. Delivery also means that they take them to the back of the
house and stack them near to where the softener is installed.

I don't think that it's worth spending time doing a big investigation
exercise, but keeping one's eyes open may be worth it.

I'm in the market for a water softener in the coming summer, I'm changing a
now disused kitchen into a Boiler housing & shower room and the mains water
riser and water meter is exposed (was behind kitchen units).
I note that some softeners use Block Salt, would that be cheaper than bags?
I'm trying to collect information on which route to go. What about RO would
that be an alternative? Can you drink the water after it has been softened
or would you have to remove the sodium?
Regards
Don

Donwill wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477ce693@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-03 13:21:49 +0000, Si $3o&m said:

In message , The Natural
Philosopher writes
a �6 bag of salt a month
There are others getting their salt? AndyH quoted GBP5.50 and you've said
GBP6 but my local builders yard just raised its price from GBP 7 to GBP8
per 25Kg bag.
To some extent, I think that in a lot of places, this is "why does a dog
lick its ********" pricing. Having got a water softener, people are
perhaps not that sensitive to salt prices within reason - it isn't the
biggest contributor to the shopping basket.

However, salt seems often to be sold at unlikely places. I used to buy
it 6 bags at a time at a nearby garden centre until that closed. Then I
was on the lookout for a new supplier.

Completely unrelated, I needed some new cylinders of propane for the
barbecue and the blow torch and found a supplier for those not far away.
The place is somewhat obscure. It's a farm next to a lake and sells
fishing licenses for people wanting to do that. I think that they stock
the lake or something. In addition, they sell all different sizes of
propane cylinder plus things like patio heaters, the odd barbecue in the
summer..... and salt.

At any rate, they will do 25kg bags for �5.50 for a quantity of 10,
delivered. Delivery also means that they take them to the back of the
house and stack them near to where the softener is installed.

I don't think that it's worth spending time doing a big investigation
exercise, but keeping one's eyes open may be worth it.

I'm in the market for a water softener in the coming summer, I'm changing a
now disused kitchen into a Boiler housing & shower room and the mains water
riser and water meter is exposed (was behind kitchen units).
I note that some softeners use Block Salt, would that be cheaper than bags?
I'm trying to collect information on which route to go. What about RO would
that be an alternative? Can you drink the water after it has been softened
or would you have to remove the sodium?

You can drink it. I like the taste. Others do not.
There is the usual elfin safety ******** attached to it, but the amount
of sodium is less than in almost any other food you are likely to eat.



Regards
Don

On 2008-01-03 15:03:58 +0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot said:

I'm in the market for a water softener in the coming summer, I'm changing a
now disused kitchen into a Boiler housing & shower room and the mains water
riser and water meter is exposed (was behind kitchen units).
I note that some softeners use Block Salt, would that be cheaper than bags?

It is claimed so by the vendors because it is highly compressed.
However, I don't believe that. Water softeners work on the principle
of timing or metering. With timing, regeneration happens nightly or
every other night or whatever you set. Basically you set the timer to
match pattern of use reasonably well. Metered systems measure the
water volume and initiate regeneration when a certain volume has been
used. The better ones have two ion exchange columns and switch between
them. You can figure out that a timed system only has one optimal
setting and if pattern of use changes that won't be right. Therefore
people tend to run the timer with a shorter time than really needed and
that uses more salt.


I'm trying to collect information on which route to go. What about RO would
that be an alternative?

No, because the rate at which it can be produced is small unless you
have a ginormous system.


Can you drink the water after it has been softened
or would you have to remove the sodium?

You can drink it. There are bogey stories about sodium risk to
health, but if you can tolerate the salt in a slice of bread, you can
drink the water. You may not like the taste though.

On 3 Jan, 14:15, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....." said:





"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in messagenews:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

But you can. The boot is on the other foot.

The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why they
then feel slippery.

With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.

If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's not
because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....

No. If you have washed your hands with soft water and soap and
*finally* managed to rinse them, then you wet them later, they do not
end up slippery. Slippery is not the natural state of your skin !
I remember the pain of showers on holiday. With soft water, scum is
not formed on your hands, true, but this means the soap is still
there. And shampoo left in your hair ends up looking like dandruff if
you are not careful. You should rinse your hair until it squeaks to
know it is rinsed, and I remember this being almost impossible on
those soft water holidays. It actually got quite annoying.
Simon.

In article 477c15d0@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes

On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:
I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt.
I don't think that you will make the claimed savings on
infrastructure such as the HW system and the washing machine although
there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

On balance, you won't lose out but you won't make a killing either.

Couple of points picked up on my recent softener replacement.....

Metered units are *backed off* a bit so you don't exhaust the resin
while waiting for the next overnight recharge opportunity.

Squirreling? With a very low draw off rate, it is possible for the flow
to find an easy route through the resin, locally exhausting the resin
and giving poor softening for subsequent normal flow. The advice was to
avoid conventional ball cocks on large header tanks.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

"Pete C" wrote in message
...
snip


I wouldn't worry about it. One thing about hard water is can help to
seal any pinhole leaks.

I doubt there is any big saving for using a water softener, it's more
a matter of personal preference for bathing.

cheers,
Pete.

{Having re-watched Life of Brian]

What has soft-ened water done for us ....?

OK, Pete; I'll give you the _bathing_ !
And the clean sinks, and baths and hand-basins, ... and toilet bowls , ...
and clothes , ...and dishes, ... and hair, ... , .. and kitchen
work-surfaces, and pots, and pans , and saving on detergents, and washing
machine tablets, and dishwasher rinse-aid .... and steam-iron filling, ...
and kettle life, ....

OK! But apart from that ... what's water-softeners ever done for us?

--

Brian

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477d18c1@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-03 15:03:58 +0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot said:

I'm in the market for a water softener in the coming summer, I'm changing
a
now disused kitchen into a Boiler housing & shower room and the mains
water
riser and water meter is exposed (was behind kitchen units).
I note that some softeners use Block Salt, would that be cheaper than
bags?

It is claimed so by the vendors because it is highly compressed. However,
I don't believe that. Water softeners work

A slight interjection here. Softeners work on the principle of flushing a
fliud -brine- through the cylinder to be refreshed, The Brine is obtained by
immersing salt into water from the mains. By a phenomem which most
school-kids will recall, the water absorbs salt until it becomes
_saturated_. Cleverly the water will not take a molecule more and become
_super saturated_ [neither, given sufficient time, wil it refuse to absorb
salt and be weak brine] So it matters little whether the salt is in blcok
form, granules or tablets, compressed or not. The Brine will be of the
correct saturation (for given pressure and temperature]. We now return to
our advertised programme ..... .

on the principle of timing or metering. With timing, regeneration happens
nightly or every other night or whatever you set. Basically you set the
timer to match pattern of use reasonably well. Metered systems measure
the water volume and initiate regeneration when a certain volume has been
used. The better ones have two ion exchange columns and switch between
them. You can figure out that a timed system only has one optimal
setting and if pattern of use changes that won't be right. Therefore
people tend to run the timer with a shorter time than really needed and
that uses more salt.


I'm trying to collect information on which route to go. What about RO
would
that be an alternative?

No, because the rate at which it can be produced is small unless you have
a ginormous system.


Can you drink the water after it has been softened
or would you have to remove the sodium?

You can drink it. There are bogey stories about sodium risk to health,
but if you can tolerate the salt in a slice of bread, you can drink the
water. You may not like the taste though.



--

Brian

On 2008-01-03 17:31:23 +0000, sm_jamieson said:

On 3 Jan, 14:15, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....." said:





"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in messagenews:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

But you can. The boot is on the other foot.

The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why they
then feel slippery.

With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.

If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's not
because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....

No. If you have washed your hands with soft water and soap and
*finally* managed to rinse them, then you wet them later, they do not
end up slippery.

Obviously not. They have skin oils on them by then

Slippery is not the natural state of your skin !

It is when cleaned properly and wet.

I remember the pain of showers on holiday. With soft water, scum is
not formed on your hands, true, but this means the soap is still
there. And shampoo left in your hair ends up looking like dandruff if
you are not careful. You should rinse your hair until it squeaks to
know it is rinsed, and I remember this being almost impossible on
those soft water holidays. It actually got quite annoying.

I never seem to have a problem with any of this.

On 2008-01-03 19:40:32 +0000, "Brian Sharrock" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:477d18c1@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-03 15:03:58 +0000, "Donwill" popple @diddle .dot said:

I'm in the market for a water softener in the coming summer, I'm changing
a
now disused kitchen into a Boiler housing & shower room and the mains
water
riser and water meter is exposed (was behind kitchen units).
I note that some softeners use Block Salt, would that be cheaper than
bags?

It is claimed so by the vendors because it is highly compressed. However,
I don't believe that. Water softeners work

A slight interjection here. Softeners work on the principle of flushing a
fliud -brine- through the cylinder to be refreshed, The Brine is obtained by
immersing salt into water from the mains. By a phenomem which most
school-kids will recall, the water absorbs salt until it becomes
_saturated_. Cleverly the water will not take a molecule more and become
_super saturated_ [neither, given sufficient time, wil it refuse to absorb
salt and be weak brine] So it matters little whether the salt is in blcok
form, granules or tablets, compressed or not. The Brine will be of the
correct saturation (for given pressure and temperature]. We now return to
our advertised programme ..... .

Quite. The point being that for a certain size and type of column,
regeneration will require a certain weight of salt.

On 2008-01-03 19:30:38 +0000, Tim Lamb said:

In article 477c15d0@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes

On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:
I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt.
I don't think that you will make the claimed savings on
infrastructure such as the HW system and the washing machine although
there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

On balance, you won't lose out but you won't make a killing either.

Couple of points picked up on my recent softener replacement.....

Metered units are *backed off* a bit so you don't exhaust the resin
while waiting for the next overnight recharge opportunity.

That's for units with single column regenerated under timer control but
with the meter giving a yes/no I guess?

The twin cylinder ones kick off a regeneration cycle based on when the
meter says and that can be during the day. The other cylinder is
swapped in and the spent one regenerated. There is no off-line time
at all.



Squirreling? With a very low draw off rate, it is possible for the flow
to find an easy route through the resin, locally exhausting the resin
and giving poor softening for subsequent normal flow. The advice was to
avoid conventional ball cocks on large header tanks.

That's certainly true. I replaced all of mine with Torbeck valves.

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In article 477c15d0@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:
I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt.
I don't think that you will make the claimed savings on
infrastructure such as the HW system and the washing machine although
there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

On balance, you won't lose out but you won't make a killing either.

Couple of points picked up on my recent softener replacement.....

Metered units are *backed off* a bit so you don't exhaust the resin
while waiting for the next overnight recharge opportunity.

Squirreling? With a very low draw off rate, it is possible for the flow
to find an easy route through the resin, locally exhausting the resin
and giving poor softening for subsequent normal flow. The advice was to
avoid conventional ball cocks on large header tanks.

What was suggested to be used instead?

--
Si

On 2008-01-04 05:29:28 +0000, Si $3o&m said:

In message , Tim Lamb
writes
In article 477c15d0@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:
I think that you can reasonably say that the savings in detergents will
offset the capital cost of the softener and the running cost in salt.
I don't think that you will make the claimed savings on
infrastructure such as the HW system and the washing machine although
there is some.

Added to this, soft water is much more pleasant for washing, showering,
bathing etc.

On balance, you won't lose out but you won't make a killing either.

Couple of points picked up on my recent softener replacement.....

Metered units are *backed off* a bit so you don't exhaust the resin
while waiting for the next overnight recharge opportunity.

Squirreling? With a very low draw off rate, it is possible for the flow
to find an easy route through the resin, locally exhausting the resin
and giving poor softening for subsequent normal flow. The advice was to
avoid conventional ball cocks on large header tanks.

What was suggested to be used instead?

Use a Torbeck or Fluidmaster valve. These are equilibrium diaphragm
types and have a positive complete shut off at the end of filling.
Large tanks, especially the low profile ones, have a large surface
area and the water rises slowly. A Portsmouth valve takes a long time
to shut off with one of these and runs at a low flow rate. For small
amounts of water, it doesn't open fully at all.

In article , Si
$3o&m writes

Squirreling? With a very low draw off rate, it is possible for the flow
to find an easy route through the resin, locally exhausting the resin
and giving poor softening for subsequent normal flow. The advice was to
avoid conventional ball cocks on large header tanks.

What was suggested to be used instead?

Torbeck, as Andy said.

regards


--
Tim Lamb

On 3 Jan, 19:51, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 17:31:23 +0000, sm_jamieson said:



On 3 Jan, 14:15, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....." said:

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in messagenews:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

But you can. The boot is on the other foot.

The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why they
then feel slippery.

With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.

If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's not
because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....

No. If you have washed your hands with soft water and soap and
*finally* managed to rinse them, then you wet them later, they do not
end up slippery.

Obviously not. They have skin oils on them by then

Slippery is not the natural state of your skin !

It is when cleaned properly and wet.

I remember the pain of showers on holiday. With soft water, scum is
not formed on your hands, true, but this means the soap is still
there. And shampoo left in your hair ends up looking like dandruff if
you are not careful. You should rinse your hair until it squeaks to
know it is rinsed, and I remember this being almost impossible on
those soft water holidays. It actually got quite annoying.

I never seem to have a problem with any of this.

Well, if this is correct ...
http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html

There could be safety issues with this. Slippery skin causing less
friction could cause surgeons to drop tools etc. We rely on skin
friction for lots of things.
Simon.

sm_jamieson wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:51, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 17:31:23 +0000, sm_jamieson said:



On 3 Jan, 14:15, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....." said:
"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...
"Andy Hall" wrote in messagenews:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps" said:
In your opinion.
Personally, I hate it.
Tim, why?
I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.
tim
But you can. The boot is on the other foot.
The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why they
then feel slippery.
With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.
If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's not
because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....
No. If you have washed your hands with soft water and soap and
*finally* managed to rinse them, then you wet them later, they do not
end up slippery.
Obviously not. They have skin oils on them by then

Slippery is not the natural state of your skin !
It is when cleaned properly and wet.

I remember the pain of showers on holiday. With soft water, scum is
not formed on your hands, true, but this means the soap is still
there. And shampoo left in your hair ends up looking like dandruff if
you are not careful. You should rinse your hair until it squeaks to
know it is rinsed, and I remember this being almost impossible on
those soft water holidays. It actually got quite annoying.
I never seem to have a problem with any of this.

Well, if this is correct ...
http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html

There could be safety issues with this. Slippery skin causing less
friction could cause surgeons to drop tools etc. We rely on skin
friction for lots of things.
Simon.
yeah,. First day in a 5 day holiday I slipped in the shower bath in the
hotel..soft local water..

Day two and three were OK, day four was painful as hell, day 5 was
absolute hell..and I just made it onto the plane.

Doctor said 'cracked ribs. Gets worse for a week, then better in 6.
Don't laugh, or cough, here's some painkillers'.


That was before I had a softener..wasn't used to slippery baths. Now I am.

sm_jamieson wrote:

Well, if this is correct ...
http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html

There could be safety issues with this. Slippery skin causing less
friction could cause surgeons to drop tools etc. We rely on skin
friction for lots of things.

I thought most surgeons wore gloves?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

sm_jamieson wrote:
On 3 Jan, 19:51, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 17:31:23 +0000, sm_jamieson
said:



On 3 Jan, 14:15, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-01-03 13:36:50 +0000, "tim....."
said:

"Grumps" wrote in message
...
"tim....." wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in
messagenews:477c15d0@qaanaaq...
On 2008-01-02 22:10:49 +0000, "Grumps"
said:

In your opinion.

Personally, I hate it.

Tim, why?

I hate not being able to wash the soap off my hands.

tim

But you can. The boot is on the other foot.

The soap is washed off of your hands with soft water which is why
they then feel slippery.

With hard water, the soap scum is left behind.

If you don't like the slippery feeling, that's one thing, but it's
not because soap isn't rinsed off, it's because it is....

No. If you have washed your hands with soft water and soap and
*finally* managed to rinse them, then you wet them later, they do
not end up slippery.

Obviously not. They have skin oils on them by then

Slippery is not the natural state of your skin !

It is when cleaned properly and wet.

I remember the pain of showers on holiday. With soft water, scum is
not formed on your hands, true, but this means the soap is still
there. And shampoo left in your hair ends up looking like dandruff
if you are not careful. You should rinse your hair until it squeaks
to know it is rinsed, and I remember this being almost impossible
on those soft water holidays. It actually got quite annoying.

I never seem to have a problem with any of this.

Well, if this is correct ...
http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html

There could be safety issues with this. Slippery skin causing less
friction could cause surgeons to drop tools etc. We rely on skin
friction for lots of things.
Simon.

I don't think a surgeon's latex gloves could slip off. Any the gloves would
grip surgical tools just fine.
--
LSR

On 2008-01-04 10:37:44 +0000, sm_jamieson said:

Well, if this is correct ...
http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html

There could be safety issues with this. Slippery skin causing less
friction could cause surgeons to drop tools etc. We rely on skin
friction for lots of things.
Simon.

I don't think that surgeons go around barefooted. At least not at work.

In general, this is a non issue. I have found no slipping issue in
the bath or the shower.