No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint with
the water inside?
if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?
TIA
--
Vass
'06 R1, '90 CBR1000F
www.doubleyolk.co.uk

On Sep 30, 4:34 pm, "Vass" wrote:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint with
the water inside?
if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?
TIA
--
Vass
'06 R1, '90 CBR1000Fwww.doubleyolk.co.uk

Drain I'm afraid.

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 30, 4:34 pm, "Vass" wrote:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is
in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint
with
the water inside?
if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?
TIA
--
Vass
'06 R1, '90 CBR1000Fwww.doubleyolk.co.uk

Drain I'm afraid.


AND careful drying of the offending parts .... one can't get the pipery to
solder-melting temperature while there's water in / near the pipe/ {
Although I once saw an mechanic accomplish this using something he called
'Killed Spirits', which came in an earthenware jar, as a flux and an
ENORMOUS electrical soldering iron roughly the size and shape of a Roman
gladius }. An old trick was to push bread into the pipes to give a temporary
blockage to the pipes - which , in theory, would dissolve later.;- not that
I'd try this on a sealed circulating system.

--

Brian

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 30, 4:34 pm, "Vass" wrote:

Drain I'm afraid.


OK, so if I have an "iffy" joint, whats the best way to try to ensure its
good enough?

I've used active flux on it (after heating with torch) then fed solder into
the joint
looks ok from the outside, but who knows
Is there a better way?
(all joints were Yorkshires)
thanks
--
Vass

In article ,
"Vass" writes:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint with
the water inside?
if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?

It's a drain down (to below the height of the leak).
Even small amounts of water still in the pipework will
prevent it being soldered. If a joint leaks, you may
be very lucky with reflowing the solder, but it's more
likely to be a dry joint where copper oxide is preventing
solder flowing, so more often you will have to disassemble,
clean up all the parts and start again. This is why it's
really worth doing the cleaning job right first time;
steel wool to bring the copper up bright and shiney on
both the pipe and the inside of the fitting.

I pressure tested my system with air before first filling
with water. There are several advantages to this. If you
find a leak, everything is still dry so it's easy to fix.
Air leaks are easy to detect using gas leak detector spray.
Air leaks out much faster than water, so if it's air-tight,
it's most definately water tight. No secondary damage from
water leaks (could be quite a lot of water if a connection
blew right apart). I suspect I got the system more water-
tight this way than sealed systems normally are -- it's
only needed topping up once in 5.5 years, and that turned
out to be due to a rubber o-ring on a radiator blanking
plug starting to fail. All the leaks I found during the
pressure testing were in the compression fittings on the
radiator valves, and the radiator tails. The pipework was
all soldered using end-feed fittings, and none of these
leaked.

NOW, A WORD OF WARNING. Pressurising a system with air to
detect for leaks can be dangerous. You end up with a lot
of energy stored in the system, and if something fails
catastrophically, there's a lot of energy waiting to
blow the parts to pieces. I believe the relevant BS says
the building should be vacated of everyone except the
tester when pressurising a system to minimise risk of
injury if some component explodes. I tested the system
on small sections as they were assembled -- no more than
two radiators. The final testing was then done with all
the radiators shut off at both ends, so they weren't
acting as a pressure resovior (quite apart from the
fact it would have killed me trying to pump up all the
radiators at once with a bicycle pump -- even just two
at once was bad enough).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Vass wrote:

No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad
is in place. If once I open the valve and let the water into the
system, I find a leak (or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder
onto the offending joint with the water inside? if not, I guess its
a full drain down again is it? TIA

make sure the solder has gone all the way round the joint and it was
cleaned and fluxed well.

--
zaax

In article ,
Vass wrote:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is
in place. If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I
find a leak (or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the
offending joint with the water inside? if not, I guess its a full drain
down again is it?

You can't solder with *any* water present. Even if the torch could get it
hot enough there's a good chance of steam blowing holes in the solder. It
needs to be absolutely dry before attempting it.

--
*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You can't solder with *any* water present. Even if the torch could get it
hot enough there's a good chance of steam blowing holes in the solder. It
needs to be absolutely dry before attempting it.

Agree with all this of course, and certainly the counsel of perfection, but
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned

1) the "radweld" type sealers
2) the plumbers' epoxy.

Havn't used the former, but used the latter successfully as a temporary (3
year) repair on a very inaccessible HW cylinder (probably a split on an
overstrained flange).

Vass wrote:

OK, so if I have an "iffy" joint, whats the best way to try to ensure its
good enough?

Clean the pipe well - the blue pipe cleaner that wickes do for about a
fiver is very good - has internal wire brushes that will get it shiny in
a few twists. Use a slightly aggressive flux - Fry metals powerflow is
fairly mild but does a nice job. Make sure the joint is hot enough all
round. Also ensure the pipe is fully home in the fitting.

I've used active flux on it (after heating with torch) then fed solder into
the joint
looks ok from the outside, but who knows
Is there a better way?
(all joints were Yorkshires)

Yorkshire does not need solder fed in really - just heat until you see a
bright ring of it all round the joint.

Personally I find I get a 100% success rate with end feed fittings, but
very slightly less with Yorkshire fittings.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Vass" writes:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint with
the water inside?
if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?

It's a drain down (to below the height of the leak).
Even small amounts of water still in the pipework will
prevent it being soldered. If a joint leaks, you may
be very lucky with reflowing the solder, but it's more
likely to be a dry joint where copper oxide is preventing
solder flowing, so more often you will have to disassemble,
clean up all the parts and start again. This is why it's
really worth doing the cleaning job right first time;
steel wool to bring the copper up bright and shiney on
both the pipe and the inside of the fitting.

I pressure tested my system with air before first filling
with water. There are several advantages to this. If you

Same here. Best money I ever spent. The pressure tester is a pressur
guage, with a not-presta (whatever the other one is called) valve, and a
push-fit fitting. Works a treat.

plug starting to fail. All the leaks I found during the
pressure testing were in the compression fittings on the
radiator valves, and the radiator tails. The pipework was
all soldered using end-feed fittings, and none of these
leaked.

Same here. My end feeds used to leak until I bought a proper blow torch.
Still have a bit of trouble with draincocks though...

NOW, A WORD OF WARNING. Pressurising a system with air to
detect for leaks can be dangerous. You end up with a lot
of energy stored in the system, and if something fails
catastrophically, there's a lot of energy waiting to
blow the parts to pieces. I believe the relevant BS says

Well the energy stored is proportional to the volume. Like you, I
wouldn't fancy pumping enough energy into a system to make it dangerous.

Ben

On 2007-09-30 21:02:43 +0100, Ben Blaukopf said:
The pressure tester is a pressur
guage, with a not-presta (whatever the other one is called) valve, and a
push-fit fitting. Works a treat.

Schraeder valve, I think


plug starting to fail. All the leaks I found during the
pressure testing were in the compression fittings on the
radiator valves, and the radiator tails. The pipework was
all soldered using end-feed fittings, and none of these
leaked.

Same here. My end feeds used to leak until I bought a proper blow torch.
Still have a bit of trouble with draincocks though...


Taking out the centre component with the seal is a good idea. a) there
is less to heat and b) it avoids melting the seal.

Buying a good quality one and cleaning it well is good.

Apply flux and then heat starting at the outer end of the drain cock
brass component and moving towards the copper fitting. This reduces
conduction of heat away and boiling off of all the flux.

In article ,
Vass wrote:
OK, so if I have an "iffy" joint, whats the best way to try to ensure
its good enough?

I've used active flux on it (after heating with torch) then fed solder
into the joint looks ok from the outside, but who knows Is there a
better way? (all joints were Yorkshires)

First it's a complete waste of money buying yorkshires if you're going to
add solder. Use plain end feed instead - not only are they much cheaper
but they look better too.

If everything was clean, you used a decent flux, the solder flowed and
you didn't move anything before it set the joint will be perfect. But to
convince yourself make up one using scrap pipe and take it apart
afterwards - you'll find the mating parts perfectly tinned.

The only fault I've ever had was a pinhole on an elbow. Which could
happen as easily on any type of joint.

--
*OK, so what's the speed of dark? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 15:48:40 GMT, "Brian Sharrock"
wrote:


AND careful drying of the offending parts .... one can't get the pipery to
solder-melting temperature while there's water in / near the pipe/ {
Although I once saw an mechanic accomplish this using something he called
'Killed Spirits', which came in an earthenware jar, as a flux

Killed Spirits was Zinc Chloride, made by dissolving zinc in
Hydrochloric acid. We used it in metalwork at school to make the
compulsory tinplate mug. I didn't have much success with it on copper.

It was also available under the trade name of Bakers Fluid, but I see
Baker's Fluid comes in about 5 "flavours" now.

I prefer the resin type pastes. They work every time if the copper is
completely clean and shiny and there is no trace of water about, not
the slightest trace, mark you.

and an
ENORMOUS electrical soldering iron roughly the size and shape of a Roman
gladius }. An old trick was to push bread into the pipes to give a temporary
blockage to the pipes - which , in theory, would dissolve later.;- not that
I'd try this on a sealed circulating system.

DG

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:33:06 +0100, Derek Geldard
wrote:

Killed Spirits was Zinc Chloride, made by dissolving zinc in
Hydrochloric acid. We used it in metalwork at school to make the
compulsory tinplate mug. I didn't have much success with it on copper.

We didn't do tinplate mugs, but we did a tinplate boiler with a
turbine on top, using a medicine-bottle cork as a safety-valve.

I'm sure some boys tried to run them without water in the boiler and
the whole lot of joints melted. Similarly, some ran them on too high a
gas ring with the cork rammed in too hard and the whole lot exploded,
bits flying around the workshop from near the brazing hearth.

I'm proud to say that my tinplate pastry cutter with its arched handle
was shown by 'Archie' Campbell to the whole class of how soldering
should be done - proper filleting of the solder etc. I wish my Mum
still had that 'project'...

We used to make the killed spirits flux too.

That was a great workshop (W5). There were 4 metal workshops but this
one had two Harrison screwcutting lathes, two ancient overhead
shaft-driven lathes, power hacksaw, shaper, planer, two pillar drills,
brazing hearth, two 'moulding' stations, a couple of benches for
repousee/rivetting etc, a surface plate/marking out bench and four
forges/anvils, as well as the usual four boys to a bench. We used to
do scraping of flats using engineer's blue...

This was a grammar-technical school. Sadly now, virtually all the
machinery has gone apparently, and I think they'd have difficulty
cutting up pieces of cardboard nowadays.

Still, all our engineering can be done by the Far-Easterners
nowadays... :-((((

--
Frank Erskine

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I'm proud to say that my tinplate pastry cutter with its arched handle
was shown by 'Archie' Campbell to the whole class of how soldering
should be done - proper filleting of the solder etc. I wish my Mum
still had that 'project'...

I made a tinplate dustpan at school in the '50s - wired edges, riveted
handle, which of course my dutiful mum used until she moved into sheltered
accommodation. And it now gives sterling service in my workshop...

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:01:56 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
I'm proud to say that my tinplate pastry cutter with its arched handle
was shown by 'Archie' Campbell to the whole class of how soldering
should be done - proper filleting of the solder etc. I wish my Mum
still had that 'project'...

I made a tinplate dustpan at school in the '50s - wired edges, riveted
handle, which of course my dutiful mum used until she moved into sheltered
accommodation. And it now gives sterling service in my workshop...

My tinplate mug burn't your lips and was SFA use to anybody. :-((

DG

Vass wrote:
No leaks (known yet) just getting myself prepared once the final rad is in
place.
If once I open the valve and let the water into the system, I find a leak
(or leaks), can I throw some flux and solder onto the offending joint with
the water inside?

Yoiu can, but it won't do anything useful ;-)

if not, I guess its a full drain down again is it?

Only the pipe to be soldered..how you achieve THAT is of course a moot
point.

If at all possible assemble bits of pipe and elbows away from main pipe
runs where they can be tested as sub assemblies by sucking on them.

Then at least there is generally only one joint that you haven't tested
before filling..and a compression joint.


TIA

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

If at all possible assemble bits of pipe and elbows away from main pipe
runs where they can be tested as sub assemblies by sucking on them.

That wont work, I once told my wife my willy had a leak.....!!

Cheers

John

John wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

If at all possible assemble bits of pipe and elbows away from main pipe
runs where they can be tested as sub assemblies by sucking on them.

That wont work, I once told my wife my willy had a leak.....!!


And she fetched the mole grips to tighten it?

Cheers

John