Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

On 19 Apr, 10:50, "Tracy" wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

I'm not sure what you mean by cant turn the hw off, are there really
no controls anywhere?

The one obvious thing is turning the power shower pump either right
down or off.

There are also less easy options, but I doubt worth the hassle. Stuff
like drain heat exchangers, solar hw...


NT

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. (BTW how did you measure this?) 22kw is roughly the output of a small
combi so it's like running this at full DHW output for an hour each day.
Your power shower is probably about this so that accounts for about 4 * 5
= 20 minutes = 1/3 of the total. You'd have to be running a hot tap at
full output for another 40 minutes for the rest, so your usage does seem a
bit high. Either your power showers are using a lot more than you estimate
or there are high losses somewhere in the system or a combination of the
two.

One source of heat loss you probably haven't accounted for is the boiler.
Johnson & Sarley implies a warm air heating unit and I guess this has a
permanent pilot light which is probably burning up a significant amount of
energy even when it's doing nothing.

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas
per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day
plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in
the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as
there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. (BTW how did you measure this?) 22kw is roughly the output of a small
combi so it's like running this at full DHW output for an hour each day.
Your power shower is probably about this so that accounts for about 4 * 5
= 20 minutes = 1/3 of the total. You'd have to be running a hot tap at
full output for another 40 minutes for the rest, so your usage does seem a
bit high. Either your power showers are using a lot more than you estimate
or there are high losses somewhere in the system or a combination of the
two.


OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy used in 24 hours NOT 1 hour as you have
mistakenly written. So regardless of when I have my showers and for how long
and use my hot water the cost remains at cost of gas per KW times 22.88039.

Why do people seem to not understand how gas consumption is measured and
paid for and assume totally unrealistic things.or do they just like to
complicate matters

..I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic meters
of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine. Also you
might have misunderstood what I meant by a power shower. It is a shower that
has a hot pipe connected to the hot water tank in the bedroom cupboard, a
second pipe connected to the cold tank in the attic and when it is turned on
a pump in the shower unit sucks hot and cold water from their appropriate
containers, mixes them then delivers it from the shower head at a greater
pressure than if gravity was allowed to act normally.

"Tracy" wrote in message
. uk...

"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:


.I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour
each day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic
meters of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

No, it converts it to kWh (kilowatt hours) as the other poster said. kW is a
*power* unit (ie when on at full tilt you boiler is running at xkW, if you
leave it running like that for 2 hours you have used 2xkWh of energy). If
you use a certain amount of power for a certain time, you can calculate the
energy used, which is what you are charged for. As the other post (quite
correctly) said, an energy consumption of 22kWh over one day is equivalent
to a usage of just under 1kW per hour continuously OR, using 22kW for one
hour.

All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine.

He was trying to help you by estimating what such a usage could be caused by
(more or less correctly as far as I could see). He also probably felt that
misunderstanding the usage units led to more confusion and was trying to
lessen such confusion.

22kWh is therefore perhaps a bit high, as (as he says) a standard combi will
run at about 22kW if it was flat out (say heating and running a shower). No,
you don't have a combi but the same amount of energy would be required to
replace the hot water you use. Less actually, as you'll use more water in
the power shower. Assuming the meter is correct, the only real ways to save
gas a

Have showers not baths and make them short if a power shower
Turn down the heating thermostat
Make sure the hot water tank is lagged
Fit thermostatic valves to radiators and make bedrooms/little used rooms
colder.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Apr 19, 3:56 pm, "Tracy" wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message

news


On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas
per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day
plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in
the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as
there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. (BTW how did you measure this?) 22kw is roughly the output of a small
combi so it's like running this at full DHW output for an hour each day.
Your power shower is probably about this so that accounts for about 4 * 5
= 20 minutes = 1/3 of the total. You'd have to be running a hot tap at
full output for another 40 minutes for the rest, so your usage does seem a
bit high. Either your power showers are using a lot more than you estimate
or there are high losses somewhere in the system or a combination of the
two.

OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy used in 24 hours NOT 1 hour as you have
mistakenly written. So regardless of when I have my showers and for how long
and use my hot water the cost remains at cost of gas per KW times 22.88039.

Why do people seem to not understand how gas consumption is measured and
paid for and assume totally unrealistic things.or do they just like to
complicate matters

.I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic meters
of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine. Also you
might have misunderstood what I meant by a power shower. It is a shower that
has a hot pipe connected to the hot water tank in the bedroom cupboard, a
second pipe connected to the cold tank in the attic and when it is turned on
a pump in the shower unit sucks hot and cold water from their appropriate
containers, mixes them then delivers it from the shower head at a greater
pressure than if gravity was allowed to act normally.

Everything John said is valid. I think you owe him an apology!

Steve

On 19 Apr, 15:56, "Tracy" wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas
per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day
plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in
the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as
there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy

I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. (BTW how did you measure this?) 22kw is roughly the output of a small
combi so it's like running this at full DHW output for an hour each day.
Your power shower is probably about this so that accounts for about 4 * 5
= 20 minutes = 1/3 of the total. You'd have to be running a hot tap at
full output for another 40 minutes for the rest, so your usage does seem a
bit high. Either your power showers are using a lot more than you estimate
or there are high losses somewhere in the system or a combination of the
two.

OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy used in 24 hours NOT 1 hour as you have
mistakenly written. So regardless of when I have my showers and for how long
and use my hot water the cost remains at cost of gas per KW times 22.88039.

Why do people seem to not understand how gas consumption is measured and
paid for and assume totally unrealistic things.or do they just like to
complicate matters

.I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic meters
of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine. Also you
might have misunderstood what I meant by a power shower. It is a shower that
has a hot pipe connected to the hot water tank in the bedroom cupboard, a
second pipe connected to the cold tank in the attic and when it is turned on
a pump in the shower unit sucks hot and cold water from their appropriate
containers, mixes them then delivers it from the shower head at a greater
pressure than if gravity was allowed to act normally.

It may be worth bearing in mind that John is a resident expert in this
sort of thing, whereas you have yet to understand basic units.

I also was wondering about the J&S bit.


NT

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:56:57 UTC, "Tracy"
wrote:

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

The point being made is that you used the wrong units. It's a bit like
saying "London is 65 miles per hour away".

A kilowatt is an instantaneous measure of energy consumption. If you run
a 1 kilowatt appliance for an hour, it uses 1 kWh (kilowatt-hour). Thus,
saying you use 22kW a day is meaningless. Your conversion indicates that
you probably meant 22kWh, which can be consumed in many ways (e.g. 22kw
for 1 hour, 44kW for half an hour, 1 kW for 22 hours, or an average of
0.916 kW for 24 hours.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

The previous posters have more patience than I would have of anyone so
ignorant of elementary science.

Tracy wrote:

OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy used

No that suggests 22 kWh or energy used (kW (note not "KW") is a
measurement of power not energy).

Why do people seem to not understand how gas consumption is measured and
paid for and assume totally unrealistic things.or do they just like to
complicate matters

I don't know - lack of education I guess. Still I think John's
explanation should have set you on the right track so you need not make
the same mistake again.

.I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

Yup, and it is still nonsense.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic meters
of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

I suggest you look a little more carefully at your bill.

All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine.

Yours seems a bit high. But that could be your 5 min showers are
actually 8 mins... Given Most J&S boilers are warm air units, it may
also suggest it is not that efficient at hating the water.

Also you
might have misunderstood what I meant by a power shower. It is a shower that
has a hot pipe connected to the hot water tank in the bedroom cupboard, a
second pipe connected to the cold tank in the attic and when it is turned on
a pump in the shower unit sucks hot and cold water from their appropriate
containers, mixes them then delivers it from the shower head at a greater
pressure than if gravity was allowed to act normally.

Yup, that is what is usually understood by power shower.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Apr 19, 3:56 pm, "Tracy" wrote:
OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy used in 24 hours NOT 1 hour as you have
mistakenly written. So regardless of when I have my showers and for how long
and use my hot water the cost remains at cost of gas per KW times 22.88039.

I've just had a thought.

If you are only taking a reading over one day, you should really use
the decimal field on your meter as well.

Your readings could have been 6754.9 and 6756.0 - which would only be
1.1 cubic meters of gas, or they could have been 6754.0 and 6756.9
which would have been 2.9 cubic metres. There is a huge potential
margin for error - you could have used as little as 12.5kWh or as much
as 33kWh...

I would suggest you run the test over a week rather than a day to give
a more balanced view anyway.

Steve

Tracy wrote:
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

Hi I have gas heating my hot water cylinder and use approx 22KW of gas
per
day for this. Is this about normal for four 5min power showers per day
plus
hot water for hand washing and dish washing etc? It works out about £3.75
per week as I pay a higher rate for the first 1465KW per quarter, so in
the
summer my gas costs me more than the winter because I use less of it

The hot water is a Johnson & Starley Janus system that is always on as
there
is no convenient way to turn it off

My hot water cylinder is foam coated plus it has an additional cylinder
jacket and all the hot pipes have a foam type of insulation.

So any suggestions as to how I can save more money on my gas?
Regards, Tracy
I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour each
day. (BTW how did you measure this?) 22kw is roughly the output of a small
combi so it's like running this at full DHW output for an hour each day.
Your power shower is probably about this so that accounts for about 4 * 5
= 20 minutes = 1/3 of the total. You'd have to be running a hot tap at
full output for another 40 minutes for the rest, so your usage does seem a
bit high. Either your power showers are using a lot more than you estimate
or there are high losses somewhere in the system or a combination of the
two.


OK here are my working out figures for gas consumption. Yesterday, meter
read 6754 and today read 6756 which give 2 cubic meters of gas. Using
figures supplied by my gas supplier this gives 2*40.27292*1.02264/3.6 which
gives 22.88039 KW of energy

22KW is not energy. 22KW is power.




used in 24 hours NOT 1 hour as you have
mistakenly written. So regardless of when I have my showers and for how long
and use my hot water the cost remains at cost of gas per KW times 22.88039.


Gas cost per KW is meaningless.

Why do people seem to not understand how gas consumption is measured and
paid for and assume totally unrealistic things.or do they just like to
complicate matters

Indeed :-)

Bob Mannix wrote:
"Tracy" wrote in message
. uk...
"John Stumbles" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 09:50:45 +0000, Tracy wrote:

.I assume you mean 22kw hours i.e. the equivalent of 22kw for one hour
each day. where did I say that?

It is perfectly clear that I mean I used 22.88039 KW of gas in a day. That
is what I said.

use approx 22KW of gas per day or to make it easier I used 2 cubic
meters of gas but the gas company converts it to KW and charges that way.

No, it converts it to kWh (kilowatt hours) as the other poster said. kW is a
*power* unit (ie when on at full tilt you boiler is running at xkW, if you
leave it running like that for 2 hours you have used 2xkWh of energy). If
you use a certain amount of power for a certain time, you can calculate the
energy used, which is what you are charged for. As the other post (quite
correctly) said, an energy consumption of 22kWh over one day is equivalent
to a usage of just under 1kW per hour continuously OR, using 22kW for one
hour.
All I want to know is if that is the quantity of gas in cubic meters or
kilowatts that other people use with a similar set up to mine.

He was trying to help you by estimating what such a usage could be caused by
(more or less correctly as far as I could see). He also probably felt that
misunderstanding the usage units led to more confusion and was trying to
lessen such confusion.

22kWh is therefore perhaps a bit high, as (as he says) a standard combi will
run at about 22kW if it was flat out (say heating and running a shower). No,
you don't have a combi but the same amount of energy would be required to
replace the hot water you use. Less actually, as you'll use more water in
the power shower. Assuming the meter is correct, the only real ways to save
gas a

Have showers not baths and make them short if a power shower
Turn down the heating thermostat
Make sure the hot water tank is lagged
Fit thermostatic valves to radiators and make bedrooms/little used rooms
colder.


Well my boiler is rated at about 15KW and it refills a 250liter tank
pretty quickly in terms of hot water.

We PROBABLY (2 of us) use a bit less than that in a day.


Assuming a 50C rise, (10C-60c) it takes 1.25 megacalories to heat that
tank.

That's about 14KWh

With a boiler efficiency of say 70% that is about 21KWh.

So what is being said (if we are correct that he means 22KWh is that he
is probably using around a tankful (250l) of hot water a day

My wife can do that just by leaving the hot tap running in the sink, or
a large shower and a bath for me.

Plus things like dishwashers and washing machines MAY be using it as well.

I would say its about par for a family of three or four, and a bit high
for two.. Heck its only around £2.20 a day. Less if econo 7 is used ,
and about what? 60-70p a day for gas?

Short answer is don't wash.