Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Malcolm

On Feb 16, 11:26 pm, Malcolm Race wrote:
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Most graphics cards will fail with it so I imagine Vista is going to
go down as the ME of NT.

And that Vista loaded computers will sell a lot cheaper than Xp loaded
ones. And to think the Xp does not even support DVD!

As soon as Vista came out all the companies supported by or
responsible for RIAA started to wake up and smell the coffee. Even
Steve Jobs realises that there is no future in computing for DRM.

So where did your friend get his PC from? A second hand shop? Is he
totally illiterate? Or was he off-planet when he started thinking
about getting a new machine?

On 2007-02-16 23:26:04 +0000, Malcolm Race said:

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Malcolm

It rather demonstrates that Microsoft has shipped garbage yet again and
the industry continues to suck it up.

Malcolm Race wrote:

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told

Me thinks you are trying it the hard way.

Virgin will work just fine on vista... Follow these steps:

1) Take virgin cd and throw it in the bin along with any supplied USB
modem.

2) Buy a decent broadband router.

3) Connect to the PC and configure it with your virgin username and password

4) Tell windows its on a lan. Sorted

categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.

Who cares - its hidden behind the router they have no visibility of what
platform you are using.

Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

You can still buy them with XP preloaded if you want.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Understandable.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ would be a better forum for that one.

You would expect Virgin to have tested their install procedures with one of the
pre release copies of Vista!

The idea that Vista does not work with ethernet port on the Dell beggars belief,
so use a router.


--

Michael Chare

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
ups.com...

So where did your friend get his PC from? A second hand shop? Is he
totally illiterate? Or was he off-planet when he started thinking
about getting a new machine?


What a rude plonker you are....!!

"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Doesn't matter if you use a router rather than a USB modem - which is a more
reliable, flexible and secure solution too...

cheers,
clive

On Feb 17, 1:23 am, "steveybar" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message

ups.com...



So where did your friend get his PC from? A second hand shop? Is he
totally illiterate? Or was he off-planet when he started thinking
about getting a new machine?

What a rude plonker you are....!!

Ah yes, this is true.

But wise. ANd thus have no real working knowledge of what I am talking
about in this thread.

BTB, do you suppose the friend of the OP is not illiterate? There have
been a wonderful collection of stories thither and you about what a
dog and pile of **** the OS is.

I may be wrong of course and have swallowed all the hype about this
work of idiocy, hook line and sinker. After all the Microsoft site
does say it works quite well at booting one's machine.

That at least is a plus if you don't also want to use it for standard
desktop practices.

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Doesn't matter if you use a router rather than a USB modem - which is a
more reliable, flexible and secure solution too...

cheers,
clive
Lots of bits of hardware don't work with Vista, try getting a Samsung ML
1210 printer to install for example

And there is lots of fun to be had with the User Account Control and older
software packages

But then years ago when XP SP2 was first released once installed my network
port and ISDN card stopped working

However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not providing
Vista compatible drivers. There have been many such issues with XP 64bit
drivers

Tony

in 617558 20070217 031845 "Weatherlawyer" wrote:
On Feb 17, 1:23 am, "steveybar" wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message

ups.com...



So where did your friend get his PC from? A second hand shop? Is he
totally illiterate? Or was he off-planet when he started thinking
about getting a new machine?

What a rude plonker you are....!!

Ah yes, this is true.

But wise. ANd thus have no real working knowledge of what I am talking
about in this thread.

BTB, do you suppose the friend of the OP is not illiterate? There have
been a wonderful collection of stories thither and you about what a
dog and pile of **** the OS is.

I may be wrong of course and have swallowed all the hype about this
work of idiocy, hook line and sinker. After all the Microsoft site
does say it works quite well at booting one's machine.

That at least is a plus if you don't also want to use it for standard
desktop practices.

****ed again, I see.

in 617552 20070217 014725 "OG" wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Maybe because one is not being unreasonable in expecting an operating
system to be backward-compatible?
Especially when one is given no choice as to which OS is loaded on a new machine.

However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not providing
Vista compatible drivers.

The drivers for which the manuafacturers have to pay Microsoft for a
"works with Vista" stucker, before they'll allow them to installed on
it.

Anything remotely media related is now horrendously messy to write for
(which is the reason Nvidia are still struggling to get one working !)
due to onerous conditions of a "protected path environment", bit-
flipping (which is likely prone to being affected by something as simple
as a mains spike), enforced shutdown of any type of output that might be
used to copy media of any sort, and degraded video / audio of any non-
protected path hardware.

Colin Wilson wrote:
However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not providing
Vista compatible drivers.

The drivers for which the manuafacturers have to pay Microsoft for a
"works with Vista" stucker, before they'll allow them to installed on
it.

Anything remotely media related is now horrendously messy to write for
(which is the reason Nvidia are still struggling to get one working !)
due to onerous conditions of a "protected path environment", bit-
flipping (which is likely prone to being affected by something as simple
as a mains spike), enforced shutdown of any type of output that might be
used to copy media of any sort, and degraded video / audio of any non-
protected path hardware.

http://www.theregister.com/2007/02/14/pricey_beta_bugger/

On 2007-02-17 00:16:18 +0000, John Rumm said:

Malcolm Race wrote:

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told

Me thinks you are trying it the hard way.

Virgin will work just fine on vista... Follow these steps:

1) Take virgin cd and throw it in the bin along with any supplied USB modem.

2) Buy a decent broadband router.

3) Connect to the PC and configure it with your virgin username and password

4) Tell windows its on a lan. Sorted

categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.

Who cares - its hidden behind the router they have no visibility of
what platform you are using.

Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

You can still buy them with XP preloaded if you want.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Understandable.

It could be NTL cable. I use this as a backup to my normal connection.

For that, they supply a modem with ethernet presentation. There is a
CD that comes with it, in order to initially do the modem config and
registration of the modem on the network. A lot of other assorted
"user experience" stuff is installed as well and it seems to heavily
use Javascript and other assorted material.

The Windows version is bad enough, but the Mac version, which they do
claim to support, just doesn't work properly at all. Fortunately,
there is a way to manually access the modem and the registration web
site without the need for the CD at all.

However, I am fairly certain that you can't just go out and buy an
arbitrary cable modem and plug it in. AFAIK, NTL's registration system
looks for certain MAC address ranges for cable modems supported on
their network. It then hands out temporary IP addresses via DHCP to
enable the user to reach the registration site. After registration,
the user is handed out an IP address for operational use.

It's possible that the CD won't work on Vista and for that reason NTL
could be saying that it is unsupported.

If this is the issue, then this site may be of help

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.d.../register.html

On 2007-02-17 08:48:54 +0000, Bob Martin said:

in 617552 20070217 014725 "OG" wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Maybe because one is not being unreasonable in expecting an operating
system to be backward-compatible?
Especially when one is given no choice as to which OS is loaded on a
new machine.

Ah, but you're forgetting that Windows is a monitor, not an operating system.

On 2007-02-17 10:24:18 +0000, Huge said:

On 2007-02-17, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:
However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not providing
Vista compatible drivers.

The drivers for which the manuafacturers have to pay Microsoft for a
"works with Vista" stucker, before they'll allow them to installed on
it.

Anything remotely media related is now horrendously messy to write for
(which is the reason Nvidia are still struggling to get one working !)
due to onerous conditions of a "protected path environment", bit-
flipping (which is likely prone to being affected by something as simple
as a mains spike), enforced shutdown of any type of output that might be
used to copy media of any sort, and degraded video / audio of any non-
protected path hardware.

Excellent news. Anything that obstructs the march of Microsoft towards
world domination is OK by me.

Even so, one really does wonder what they think they are doing when
they make it
so hard for major hardware vendors to produce working solutions.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-02-16 23:26:04 +0000, Malcolm Race said:

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Malcolm

It rather demonstrates that Microsoft has shipped garbage yet again and
the industry continues to suck it up.

Do they have much choice? Consider a medium size company comitted to using
MS for all its corporate office systems/accounts/etc. Can you imagine they
horrendous difficulty/cost/staff training of switching over to another
operating system - if a suitable one exists. That of course is just how
Bill wanted it, tied into MS products. Now industry is reaping the harvest.

Roger

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
in 617552 20070217 014725 "OG" wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Maybe because one is not being unreasonable in expecting an operating
system to be backward-compatible?
Especially when one is given no choice as to which OS is loaded on a new
machine.

It depends on how well/badly the software has been written. You may get away
with badly written software on one OS, but not on another.

Similar to the way that some non-w3c complient webpages may be rendered OK
on some browsers, but not on others. It's not the fault of the browser.

What is worrying is that Virgin know their software doesn't work on Vista
and have done nothing about it.

Clive George wrote:
Doesn't matter if you use a router rather than a USB modem - which is a
more reliable, flexible and secure solution too...

That depends what software is a) on the router b) on the machine that
would otherwise be connected to the modem (OK so in the case of Vista
it's probably true).

Alex

On 2007-02-17 12:02:55 +0000, "Roger R" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-02-16 23:26:04 +0000, Malcolm Race said:

Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.

Brownie points to Dell who are sending a copy of XP so that I can
'downgrade' the machine and get it working. BUT wearing another hat
where I deal with the corporate side of Dell I am thold that they would
not think of shipping a machine with Vista!

Malcolm

It rather demonstrates that Microsoft has shipped garbage yet again and
the industry continues to suck it up.

Do they have much choice? Consider a medium size company comitted to using
MS for all its corporate office systems/accounts/etc. Can you imagine they
horrendous difficulty/cost/staff training of switching over to another
operating system - if a suitable one exists.

MS doesn't produce any operating systems. The best that they can manage is
what amounts to a monitor with eye candy for users and a very weak platform to
run service applications. Security profiles are appalling and
networking functionality
extremely weak.

In short, the company is all about marketing and very little about
technology and useful
and stable applications.

In terms of server platforms, any of the Unix derived ones by far and
away exceed the
quality and stability that MS achieves and can even host Windows
requirements such
as file storage.

In terms of desktops, there are a whole host of applications available
for Linux at little
or no cost which will even handle files from MS applications.

Commercially, Mac OS X is a proper operating system and comes with a
rich set of applications.
In short, it just works.

One can even buy MS Office for it, although I note on my machine that
if an application does
crash, it is invariably Powerpoint, Excel or Word.


That of course is just how
Bill wanted it, tied into MS products. Now industry is reaping the harvest.

Hopefully the anti-trust lobby will go after MS again.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-02-17 10:24:18 +0000, Huge said:

On 2007-02-17, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:
However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not
providing
Vista compatible drivers.

The drivers for which the manuafacturers have to pay Microsoft for a
"works with Vista" stucker, before they'll allow them to installed on
it.

Anything remotely media related is now horrendously messy to write for
(which is the reason Nvidia are still struggling to get one working !)
due to onerous conditions of a "protected path environment", bit-
flipping (which is likely prone to being affected by something as simple
as a mains spike), enforced shutdown of any type of output that might be
used to copy media of any sort, and degraded video / audio of any non-
protected path hardware.

Excellent news. Anything that obstructs the march of Microsoft towards
world domination is OK by me.

Even so, one really does wonder what they think they are doing when they
make it
so hard for major hardware vendors to produce working solutions.


It also has the feel of DRM to me. Requiring hardware drivers to refuse
to work with non-approved software and suchlike. One of the biggest
problem areas seems, oddly enough, to be Ethernet cards.

Surely Ethernet driving isn't rocket science, so presumably the
intention is to prevent existing NICs being used. Perhaps refusing to
allow promiscuous mode, to prevent streamed content being sniffed? Or
possibly to use a different network protocol in future, one protected
by Microsoft patent?

On 2007-02-17 12:27:24 +0000, Joe said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2007-02-17 10:24:18 +0000, Huge said:

On 2007-02-17, Colin Wilson
o.uk wrote:
However many of the problems are due to other manufacturers not providing
Vista compatible drivers.

The drivers for which the manuafacturers have to pay Microsoft for a
"works with Vista" stucker, before they'll allow them to installed on
it.

Anything remotely media related is now horrendously messy to write for
(which is the reason Nvidia are still struggling to get one working !)
due to onerous conditions of a "protected path environment", bit-
flipping (which is likely prone to being affected by something as simple
as a mains spike), enforced shutdown of any type of output that might be
used to copy media of any sort, and degraded video / audio of any non-
protected path hardware.

Excellent news. Anything that obstructs the march of Microsoft towards
world domination is OK by me.

Even so, one really does wonder what they think they are doing when
they make it
so hard for major hardware vendors to produce working solutions.


It also has the feel of DRM to me. Requiring hardware drivers to refuse
to work with non-approved software and suchlike.

Which is ridiculous


One of the biggest
problem areas seems, oddly enough, to be Ethernet cards.

Also ridiculous.



Surely Ethernet driving isn't rocket science, so presumably the
intention is to prevent existing NICs being used.

That would simply have the effect of slowing down adoption rate of the "OS"

Perhaps refusing to
allow promiscuous mode, to prevent streamed content being sniffed?

There are plenty of ways around that, and limiting the ability of
hardware to perform
or support existing applications would be a shot in the foot

Or
possibly to use a different network protocol in future, one protected
by Microsoft patent?

They tried that before with NetBIOS run almost directly on the wire
(NETBEUI) and
it quickly became irrelevant because it was not routable.

Potentially they could do something over IP which is opaque to the
network. There has been
a long standing battleground between MS and the network manufacturers
in that area with the
former regarding the latter as plumbers and the latter regarding the
former as incompetent
in terms of networking.

in 617610 20070217 120940 "OG" wrote:
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
in 617552 20070217 014725 "OG" wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Maybe because one is not being unreasonable in expecting an operating
system to be backward-compatible?
Especially when one is given no choice as to which OS is loaded on a new
machine.

It depends on how well/badly the software has been written. You may get away
with badly written software on one OS, but not on another.

Similar to the way that some non-w3c complient webpages may be rendered OK
on some browsers, but not on others. It's not the fault of the browser.

What is worrying is that Virgin know their software doesn't work on Vista
and have done nothing about it.

I don't think it's valid to compare html (which is really source code) with working
compiled code. While the former may be rejected by a more standards-conforming
compiler or browser the latter should work on subsequent versions of the same
operating system (Vista is Windows, isn't it?).
Also, knowing a program doesn't work under Vista and doing something about it
are quite different things. Seems Vista was actually designed to break a lot of
old code.

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
in 617610 20070217 120940 "OG" wrote:
"Bob Martin" wrote in message
...
in 617552 20070217 014725 "OG" wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Maybe because one is not being unreasonable in expecting an operating
system to be backward-compatible?
Especially when one is given no choice as to which OS is loaded on a new
machine.

It depends on how well/badly the software has been written. You may get
away
with badly written software on one OS, but not on another.

Similar to the way that some non-w3c complient webpages may be rendered OK
on some browsers, but not on others. It's not the fault of the browser.

What is worrying is that Virgin know their software doesn't work on Vista
and have done nothing about it.

I don't think it's valid to compare html (which is really source code)
with working
compiled code. While the former may be rejected by a more
standards-conforming
compiler or browser the latter should work on subsequent versions of the
same
operating system (Vista is Windows, isn't it?).
Also, knowing a program doesn't work under Vista and doing something about
it
are quite different things. Seems Vista was actually designed to break a
lot of
old code.

Well, making Vista more secure was part of the drive behind it. We know that
XP and earlier versions of Windows allowed poorly written software to do
things that made the OS insecure.
If Virgin's software did things that it shouldn't do (I don't know that
this is the case, but it IS possible), I would expect ot not to work on
Vista. Again; why blame MS for that?

On 2007-02-17 13:42:34 +0000, "OG" said:


Well, making Vista more secure was part of the drive behind it.

That would be a simple project.

We know that
XP and earlier versions of Windows allowed poorly written software to do
things that made the OS insecure.

That's because it isn't an OS

If Virgin's software did things that it shouldn't do (I don't know that
this is the case, but it IS possible), I would expect ot not to work on
Vista. Again; why blame MS for that?

Because they are incompetent as well as being overbearing?

Users find value in applications, not the means on which they run.

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:48:17 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

We know that
XP and earlier versions of Windows allowed poorly written software to do
things that made the OS insecure.

That's because it isn't an OS

I'm no fan of Windows, but I doubt that statement would stand up to
scrutiny.


--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

In article ,
OG wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Indeed. They're hardly in a position to do so - punters are far more
likely to change to an ISP that offers support than not to use Vista.

But surely you don't need that support? I'm with Pipex and set up my
connection from basics - I'm using RISC OS, and non of the large ISPs
offer support for that.

--
*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2007-02-17 13:59:07 +0000, "Bob Eager" said:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:48:17 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

We know that
XP and earlier versions of Windows allowed poorly written software to do
things that made the OS insecure.

That's because it isn't an OS

I'm no fan of Windows, but I doubt that statement would stand up to
scrutiny.

Poorly written application software should not be able to compromise
the platform
on which it runs.....

That's one of the things that denotes the difference between an OS and
a monitor

e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_language_monitor

in 617640 20070217 140440 "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
OG wrote:
"Malcolm Race" wrote in message
...
Ater a torrid time trying to help a friend install Virgin (aka NTL
Broadband on a new Dell laptop with Vista installed I have been told
categorically by the Virgin helpline that they do no support Vista.
Slightly alarming as it seems that all new computers ship with Vista
pre-installed.


Basically to summarise the previous resonses

Virgin are unprepared for Vista
Why blame Vista ?

Indeed. They're hardly in a position to do so - punters are far more
likely to change to an ISP that offers support than not to use Vista.

But surely you don't need that support? I'm with Pipex and set up my
connection from basics - I'm using RISC OS, and non of the large ISPs
offer support for that.

If everyone had your level of competence and knowledge then Microsoft
would probably have gone out of business many years ago and this problem
would never have arisen.
As to whether Vista deserves to be called an operating system, take away the
flashy graphical desktop and you are about where mainframe OSs were
25 years ago.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:48:17 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

We know that
XP and earlier versions of Windows allowed poorly written software to do
things that made the OS insecure.
That's because it isn't an OS

I'm no fan of Windows, but I doubt that statement would stand up to
scrutiny.



If you've got religion, you're free from scrutiny.

On 17 Feb 2007 12:45:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Oh, I don't have to imagine it. I've just done it. Migrating 250,000
users worldwide from NT to XP.

Oh, hang on. They were both MS "operating systems". So why wasn't it
seamless and easy? Why are we still trying to demise the NT utility
domains? Why did we have to buy third party tools to help us do it?

Could it be that Microsoft sucks, for the 8,341,369th time?

For comparison, Apple did not just change operating system, they also
changed the entire platform from PowerPC RISC to Intel without any of the
users really noticing the change. Even binaries compiled for the
(completely incompatible) Power PC platform run without too much strain.

It's inconceivable to think of Microsoft pulling this off when they foul up
again and again simply creating a new version or minor update to a current
product.

It's obviously not shortage of money that causes Microsoft's woes, Apple
only had a fraction of the capital. There's something deeply wrong at M$
because they recruit good people from the same background as Apple (and all
the rest) draw their talent from and then M$ spectacularly fail to allow
those people to perform their job properly.

BTW, a few years ago there was a spoof advert of Microsoft designing
packaging for an iPod. Rumours were that it was made by an in-house M$ team
to show how not to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0

Although current Zune packaging shows no one at M$ listened or cared.

Andy Hall wrote:

It could be NTL cable. I use this as a backup to my normal connection.

For that, they supply a modem with ethernet presentation. There is a
CD that comes with it, in order to initially do the modem config and
registration of the modem on the network. A lot of other assorted
"user experience" stuff is installed as well and it seems to heavily use
Javascript and other assorted material.

The Windows version is bad enough, but the Mac version, which they do
claim to support, just doesn't work properly at all. Fortunately,
there is a way to manually access the modem and the registration web
site without the need for the CD at all.

Yup, you can access the web server in the modem via a web browser
usually (assuming it is their usual motorola modem)... I tend to apply
the same logic to any broadband hardware, if you ignore the supplied
software and talk directly to the box you get a much more
straightforward setup usually.

However, I am fairly certain that you can't just go out and buy an
arbitrary cable modem and plug it in. AFAIK, NTL's registration system
looks for certain MAC address ranges for cable modems supported on their
network. It then hands out temporary IP addresses via DHCP to enable
the user to reach the registration site. After registration, the user
is handed out an IP address for operational use.

The way to deal with these is to use a ethernet to ethernet broadband
router[1]. Connect it to the NTL modem box and then it handles NAT and
sharing on your lan etc. There was a time where NTL used to enforce MAC
address filtering on the network device that could connect to the modem,
so during initial setup the MAC address of the NIC would have been set.
Hence you had to register the MAC address of the router with them via a
web site or tech support call. IIRC they allowed up to five different
MAC addresses to be logged for one modem (obviously once the router was
one of those any other restrictions became irrelevant). They seem to
have dropped that restriction now though.


[1] Linksys do a range of reasonable ones that are my default weapons
of choice here.

It's possible that the CD won't work on Vista and for that reason NTL
could be saying that it is unsupported.

Equally it could be they support staff have not been trained (or more
likely do not have the first line tech support scripts) to talk people
through setting up network settings under vista - IIUC an area where
there has been quite a significant area of change.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Bob Eager wrote:

That's because it isn't an OS

I'm no fan of Windows, but I doubt that statement would stand up to
scrutiny.

It may have had some credence on Win9/ME sat on top of DOS, but I don't
think one can apply it to any of the NT based products. Remember these
were based on OS foundations designed by Dave Cutler and crew. (THis
shows at the NT native API where the similarities to VMS can be striking!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Andy Hall wrote:

Even so, one really does wonder what they think they are doing when they
make it
so hard for major hardware vendors to produce working solutions.

Pandering to the behest of the entertainment industry such that they let
them play in the "convergence" market.

Its a massive potential market that MS have been trying to get a
foothold in for years... what else are they going to do?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:54:16 UTC, John Rumm
wrote:

Bob Eager wrote:

That's because it isn't an OS

I'm no fan of Windows, but I doubt that statement would stand up to
scrutiny.

It may have had some credence on Win9/ME sat on top of DOS, but I don't
think one can apply it to any of the NT based products. Remember these
were based on OS foundations designed by Dave Cutler and crew. (THis
shows at the NT native API where the similarities to VMS can be striking!)

Exactly my point. Credibility is lessened (IMO) by quoting anything from
Wikipedia..

I agree completely about the API. And, for that matter, NTFS.

I still have a VAX or three...

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 2007-02-17 14:38:44 +0000, Steve Firth said:

On 17 Feb 2007 12:45:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Oh, I don't have to imagine it. I've just done it. Migrating 250,000
users worldwide from NT to XP.

Oh, hang on. They were both MS "operating systems". So why wasn't it
seamless and easy? Why are we still trying to demise the NT utility
domains? Why did we have to buy third party tools to help us do it?

Could it be that Microsoft sucks, for the 8,341,369th time?

For comparison, Apple did not just change operating system, they also
changed the entire platform from PowerPC RISC to Intel without any of the
users really noticing the change. Even binaries compiled for the
(completely incompatible) Power PC platform run without too much strain.

It's inconceivable to think of Microsoft pulling this off when they foul up
again and again simply creating a new version or minor update to a current
product.

It's obviously not shortage of money that causes Microsoft's woes, Apple
only had a fraction of the capital. There's something deeply wrong at M$
because they recruit good people from the same background as Apple (and all
the rest) draw their talent from and then M$ spectacularly fail to allow
those people to perform their job properly.

BTW, a few years ago there was a spoof advert of Microsoft designing
packaging for an iPod. Rumours were that it was made by an in-house M$ team
to show how not to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0

Although current Zune packaging shows no one at M$ listened or cared.

Did you have to post this after I'd been given an afternoon cup of tea?

Bob Eager wrote:

Exactly my point. Credibility is lessened (IMO) by quoting anything from
Wikipedia..

;-)

I agree completely about the API. And, for that matter, NTFS.

Indeed, not wishing to devote too much effort defending the mess that is
windows, but it is hard to think of any major facility or service that
you would expect to find in an OS that is missing.

I still have a VAX or three...

Complete with orange/grey wall?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:01:10 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

BTW, a few years ago there was a spoof advert of Microsoft designing
packaging for an iPod. Rumours were that it was made by an in-house M$ team
to show how not to do it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeXAcwriid0

Although current Zune packaging shows no one at M$ listened or cared.

Did you have to post this after I'd been given an afternoon cup of tea?

It still brings a smile to my face and I've seen in many times. It may have
been made tongue in cheek but it does neatly highlight where they go wrong.

On 2007-02-17 14:48:53 +0000, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:

It could be NTL cable. I use this as a backup to my normal connection.

For that, they supply a modem with ethernet presentation. There is a
CD that comes with it, in order to initially do the modem config and
registration of the modem on the network. A lot of other assorted
"user experience" stuff is installed as well and it seems to heavily
use Javascript and other assorted material.

The Windows version is bad enough, but the Mac version, which they do
claim to support, just doesn't work properly at all. Fortunately,
there is a way to manually access the modem and the registration web
site without the need for the CD at all.

Yup, you can access the web server in the modem via a web browser
usually (assuming it is their usual motorola modem)... I tend to apply
the same logic to any broadband hardware, if you ignore the supplied
software and talk directly to the box you get a much more
straightforward setup usually.

I think that's true, plus it doesn't pollute the computer with (more)
unrequired junk.

They are now supplying the NTL 250 as CPE which is manufactured by
Ambit. This one has USB and Ethernet presentations.




However, I am fairly certain that you can't just go out and buy an
arbitrary cable modem and plug it in. AFAIK, NTL's registration system
looks for certain MAC address ranges for cable modems supported on
their network. It then hands out temporary IP addresses via DHCP to
enable the user to reach the registration site. After registration,
the user is handed out an IP address for operational use.

The way to deal with these is to use a ethernet to ethernet broadband
router[1]. Connect it to the NTL modem box and then it handles NAT and
sharing on your lan etc. There was a time where NTL used to enforce MAC
address filtering on the network device that could connect to the
modem, so during initial setup the MAC address of the NIC would have
been set. Hence you had to register the MAC address of the router with
them via a web site or tech support call. IIRC they allowed up to five
different MAC addresses to be logged for one modem (obviously once the
router was one of those any other restrictions became irrelevant). They
seem to have dropped that restriction now though.

One would want to put such a device in place anyway since it would be
foolhardy to trust the security capabilities of Microsoft on an
unrestricted internet connection.

I directly connected a PC with Knoppix to the modem and did the initial
registration with that, then added in a Cisco 870 series router with
DHCP enabled on the WAN port side.





[1] Linksys do a range of reasonable ones that are my default weapons
of choice here.

These work pretty well IME.



It's possible that the CD won't work on Vista and for that reason NTL
could be saying that it is unsupported.

Equally it could be they support staff have not been trained (or more
likely do not have the first line tech support scripts) to talk people
through setting up network settings under vista - IIUC an area where
there has been quite a significant area of change.

Mmm... There is a difference between "not supported" and "doesn't work"