Hi All,

At my secret headquarters, I have a couple of bell boxes similar to
this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/External-Alarm...QQcmdZViewItem

but the horizontal design.

They were looking a bit tired so I decided to take them down and paint
them and make up some new signage for them with my table top publishing
system and laminator, and possibly add a flashing led if I can be
bothered to wire up an LV supply to them.

I have given one of them a few coats of car type (cellulose??) primer
and then a top coat, but whtether due to the paint being old stock, or
my ineptitude with a spray can, the result isn't brilliant.

I wondered about going out to buy a new can of top coat, but then
thought by the time i'd done that and bought another can of primer for
the second box, I could probably have bought a more modern looking bell
box.

I had a look on ebay, but most of them seem to be going for silly
money.

So, to the questions............

Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?

If the latter, does anyone know a good source of these?

Cheers

Get your crime prevention officer round for free.

He will probably recommend (in order) dogs, security lighting, high
fences and gates (locked), better house locks/doors - and way down the
list at the worthless end - dummy bellboxes.

Remember the modern thief probably picks up your bin and hurls it
through the window - grabs what he can, threatens to slice up anyone he
sees - and ideally leaves with your vehicle.

Dummy bell boxes - you're havin a laugh.

wrote:
Get your crime prevention officer round for free.

He will probably recommend (in order) dogs, security lighting, high
fences and gates (locked), better house locks/doors - and way down the
list at the worthless end - dummy bellboxes.

Remember the modern thief probably picks up your bin and hurls it
through the window - grabs what he can, threatens to slice up anyone he
sees - and ideally leaves with your vehicle.

Actually, when he came to call at our last house he used a piece of
concrete he found lying n the garden in preference to the bin. He
prsumably also had a very small child with him to go in and get the
back door keys. Fortunately we were out.

However, where we live now, we have dummy bell boxes, and he's not come
near. I would suspect he likes the quiet life and goes to one of the
other houses in the street that doesn't have such adornments, but are
otherwise similar.

Then again, perhaps he thinks (quite correctly) that anyone with such
old and tatty bell boxes prolly hasn't anything worth nicking. (Tv's
all steam driven 4:3 CRTs). Plus the new satellite dish probably fools
him into thinking we're chavs. :=))

Also we live in the cheap seats (roomy ex local authority house), so
he's probably too busy in the old part of the village where they all
have a Mercedes and room for a pony.

anyways, if anyone is still listening and happens to have one or two
modern but defunt bell boxes on the van and would like to exchange them
for a little beer money, let me know!

In article . com,
wrote:
Hi All,

At my secret headquarters, I have a couple of bell boxes similar to
this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/External-Alarm...QQcmdZViewItem

but the horizontal design.

They seem available at a very good price - although the postage is a bit
high.

They were looking a bit tired so I decided to take them down and paint
them and make up some new signage for them with my table top publishing
system and laminator, and possibly add a flashing led if I can be
bothered to wire up an LV supply to them.

I have given one of them a few coats of car type (cellulose??) primer
and then a top coat, but whtether due to the paint being old stock, or
my ineptitude with a spray can, the result isn't brilliant.

Sounds like you have a lot of time on your hands, given the price of a new
one.

I wondered about going out to buy a new can of top coat, but then
thought by the time i'd done that and bought another can of primer for
the second box, I could probably have bought a more modern looking bell
box.

I had a look on ebay, but most of them seem to be going for silly
money.

Here's a guide:-
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_1/index.html

So, to the questions............

Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?

If the latter, does anyone know a good source of these?

Not at the price you seem to think they should be. ;-)

Cheers

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote:

Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box

Only if the flashing LED is a blue one :-P

wrote in message
ups.com...
....
Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?...

When ADT took over Thorn, thieves started targeting places with Thorn boxes,
because they knew they had not renewed their contracts. As a recent survey
showed, thieves know a lot more about home security than your local Crime
Prevention Officer and they will know how little they have to worry about
the average home alarm system, whether the box is real or a dummy.

Colin Bignell

wrote:
Hi All,

At my secret headquarters, I have a couple of bell boxes similar to
this


If the latter, does anyone know a good source of these?

Screwfix have them at £7:49
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...16905&ts=53440


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
...
Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?...

When ADT took over Thorn, thieves started targeting places with Thorn boxes,
because they knew they had not renewed their contracts. As a recent survey
showed, thieves know a lot more about home security than your local Crime
Prevention Officer and they will know how little they have to worry about
the average home alarm system, whether the box is real or a dummy.

Colin Bignell


Mmm. Prehaps.

When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to
leave the radio on all day.

Someone spent over half an hour ringing the bell thinking I was in, and
not wanting to see him (this was in fact true, except for the first bit:
I was out).

Psychology riules OK?

There are two sorts of thieves - pros and opportunists. Nothing stops a
determined pro, except possibly human occupancy. As the local rozzers
explained to me when they caght (elsewhere) the team that did my house
over "Silly buggers did a house and the wife was in. They threatened her
and the baby, and that's not breaking and entering, thasts not even
burglary, thats assault" (or something), Anyway it meant up to 8 years
inside rather than the odd 18 months or something.

Now I can't prove it, but some months previously there was a bloke in an
old Volvo doing painting and he sat outside my hose for a day making
sketches...including when I went to work etc.

That's pros.

Amateurs just wander past trying door handles and maybe chucking a brick
through the window to SEE if the alarm goes off. If it does, they will
either scarper or nip inside, grab whats easy to find and bugger off.

If it doesn't, they will take their time, and maybe call up a mate round
the corner in a nicked car, and load up more.

Your call as to whether or not a dummy alarm will put them off or not.

It would PROBABLY put the pros off, unless they were convinced you had
real value inside.

In message . com,
writes
Hi All,

At my secret headquarters, I have a couple of bell boxes similar to
this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/External-Alarm...m-Siren_W0QQit
emZ300032207725QQihZ020QQcategoryZ41969QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem

but the horizontal design.

They were looking a bit tired so I decided to take them down and paint
them and make up some new signage for them with my table top publishing
system and laminator, and possibly add a flashing led if I can be
bothered to wire up an LV supply to them.

I have given one of them a few coats of car type (cellulose??) primer
and then a top coat, but whtether due to the paint being old stock, or
my ineptitude with a spray can, the result isn't brilliant.

I wondered about going out to buy a new can of top coat, but then
thought by the time i'd done that and bought another can of primer for
the second box, I could probably have bought a more modern looking bell
box.

I had a look on ebay, but most of them seem to be going for silly
money.

So, to the questions............

Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box,

I wouldn't have thought so, especially if there's no logo from a
recognisable security co on it




--
geoff

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
...
Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?...

When ADT took over Thorn, thieves started targeting places with Thorn
boxes, because they knew they had not renewed their contracts. As a
recent survey showed, thieves know a lot more about home security than
your local Crime Prevention Officer and they will know how little they
have to worry about the average home alarm system, whether the box is
real or a dummy.

Colin Bignell
Mmm. Prehaps.

When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to leave
the radio on all day.

That is widely promoted as being the best single security measure you can
take.

....
There are two sorts of thieves - pros and opportunists. Nothing stops a
determined pro, except possibly human occupancy.
....

Only if they are determined to rob you. If they don't care who they rob,
good security will ensure they rob your neighbours instead of you. However,
to count as good security, the alarm box has to tell the thieves that the
alarm is NACOSS installed and may be remotely monitored.

Colin Bignell

When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to leave
the radio on all day.

That is widely promoted as being the best single security measure you can
take.

No, the ex-burglars always say it's dogs.

The message
from "nightjar" nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com contains
these words:

When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to leave
the radio on all day.

That is widely promoted as being the best single security measure you can
take.

I leave mine on anyway as company for the cats. Dunno if it works for
them but it makes me feel better. Radio 4's probably the best deterrent
to a burglar - all that gentle talk and no irritating bangy-bangy music.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Radio 4's probably the best deterrent
to a burglar - all that gentle talk and no irritating bangy-bangy music.

If I wasin the house-breaking business, I'd do the R4 homes.

Burglar's taste has changed, they no longer go after the new domestic
electronics stuff that tends to be more in youngsters homes, as it's
got so cheap now. They like cash, credit cards, jewelery, spare car
keys (because good modern cars are getting difficult to steal
otherwise), phones/laptops/cameras/ipods - but not as much as they did,
good small antiques, good quality tools - they're likely not to bother
with hifis/dvds/desktop pcs/screens unless they're really good and
they've got your car.

All in all, the R4 home is looking the more lucrative target.

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
...
Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box, or do I need to re -invest in something
more sexy?...
When ADT took over Thorn, thieves started targeting places with Thorn
boxes, because they knew they had not renewed their contracts. As a
recent survey showed, thieves know a lot more about home security than
your local Crime Prevention Officer and they will know how little they
have to worry about the average home alarm system, whether the box is
real or a dummy.

Colin Bignell
Mmm. Prehaps.

When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to leave
the radio on all day.

That is widely promoted as being the best single security measure you can
take.

...
There are two sorts of thieves - pros and opportunists. Nothing stops a
determined pro, except possibly human occupancy.
...

Only if they are determined to rob you. If they don't care who they rob,
good security will ensure they rob your neighbours instead of you. However,
to count as good security, the alarm box has to tell the thieves that the
alarm is NACOSS installed and may be remotely monitored.

I think my definition of pros, is those who have determined to rob you.

Opportunistic theft is different.


Colin Bignell

In article .com,
wrote:
Burglar's taste has changed, they no longer go after the new domestic
electronics stuff that tends to be more in youngsters homes, as it's
got so cheap now. They like cash, credit cards, jewelery, spare car
keys (because good modern cars are getting difficult to steal
otherwise), phones/laptops/cameras/ipods - but not as much as they did,
good small antiques, good quality tools - they're likely not to bother
with hifis/dvds/desktop pcs/screens unless they're really good and
they've got your car.

The most frequently burgled homes are those on sink estates. If you want
to see security, take a walk round one of them. You'll find solid steel
doors, with grille gates in front of them. Grills on all the windows, too.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The message .com
from " contains these words:

They like cash, credit cards, jewelery, spare car
keys (because good modern cars are getting difficult to steal
otherwise), phones/laptops/cameras/ipods - but not as much as they did,
good small antiques, good quality tools - they're likely not to bother
with hifis/dvds/desktop pcs/screens unless they're really good and
they've got your car.

They're out of luck in our house for the first half of that list! And
any casha dn ID documents are all locked away in a nice solid safe well
bolted to both the floor and the concrete wall behind it, making it a
******* to move.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Grills on all the windows, too.

For Al Fresco toast perhaps :-)

--
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
....
I think my definition of pros, is those who have determined to rob you.

I would view a pro as someone who makes a living from theft and that means
that, unless they have a particular reason to target your house, they will
generally go for the easiest target.

Opportunistic theft is different.

They are probably funding a drug habit.

Colin Bignell

wrote in message
oups.com...
When I was renting a cottage, with very dubious security, I used to
leave
the radio on all day.

That is widely promoted as being the best single security measure you can
take.

No, the ex-burglars always say it's dogs.

That is not always a good choice as a security measure, even if it is the
better deterrent. For one thing, the radio doesn't need to be taken walkies.
For another, you can leave it alone, guarding the house (with the aid of a
timeswitch), when you go away on holiday for a fortnight.

Colin Bignell

No, the ex-burglars always say it's dogs.

That is not always a good choice as a security measure, even if it is the
better deterrent. For one thing, the radio doesn't need to be taken walkies.
For another, you can leave it alone, guarding the house (with the aid of a
timeswitch), when you go away on holiday for a fortnight.

When they make a radio that launches itself through the dog flap like a
target seeking missile, throws itself against the fence and does the
snarling ball of fur and teeth act whenever a stranger strays close to
it's owners territory - then I might consider a radio being an adequate
substitute.

Seriously though - on very rural properties, the "I might be at home"
routine is weak - they will ring and knock on all the doors and peer
through all the windows repeatedly - before forcing an entry.

wrote in message
oups.com...
No, the ex-burglars always say it's dogs.

That is not always a good choice as a security measure, even if it is the
better deterrent. For one thing, the radio doesn't need to be taken
walkies.
For another, you can leave it alone, guarding the house (with the aid of
a
timeswitch), when you go away on holiday for a fortnight.

When they make a radio that launches itself through the dog flap like a
target seeking missile, throws itself against the fence and does the
snarling ball of fur and teeth act whenever a stranger strays close to
it's owners territory - then I might consider a radio being an adequate
substitute.

I was not suggesting that a radio was a substitute for a properly trained
guard dog. However, many people, myself included, do not like dogs, many
more would not want to own one and not all dogs are actually much good as
guard dogs.

Seriously though - on very rural properties, the "I might be at home"
routine is weak - they will ring and knock on all the doors and peer
through all the windows repeatedly - before forcing an entry.

On a very rural property, I would have a remotely monitored alarm system,
with remotely monitored CCTV covering the approaches, as I do for my factory
units. They are good value for money and the independent alarm verification
given by the CCTV ensures that the Police will respond.

Colin Bignell

raden wrote:
In message . com,
writes

Firstly, is any self respecting theif going to be frightened off by the
sight of an old style bell box,

I wouldn't have thought so, especially if there's no logo from a
recognisable security co on it

Yup. I think the only way an unknown alarm bellbox is going to do
anything is if you set it all up to almost invite them to some part of
the outside of the property then scare the crp out of them. Burglars
run entirely on the idea theyre in control, show it aint so and they'll
leave. Fun too

BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.


NT

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:34:20 UTC, wrote:

Yup. I think the only way an unknown alarm bellbox is going to do
anything is if you set it all up to almost invite them to some part of
the outside of the property then scare the crp out of them. Burglars
run entirely on the idea theyre in control, show it aint so and they'll
leave. Fun too

BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very
disorienting too.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 2006-09-30 23:16:45 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:34:20 UTC, wrote:

Yup. I think the only way an unknown alarm bellbox is going to do
anything is if you set it all up to almost invite them to some part of
the outside of the property then scare the crp out of them. Burglars
run entirely on the idea theyre in control, show it aint so and they'll
leave. Fun too

BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very disorienting too.

What do they do?

In article .com,
wrote:
For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

Given the majority of alarms are 'false' you're the one likely to be
disorientated. ;-)

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 22:24:38 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very disorienting too.

What do they do?

Make a very loud, uncomfortable noise!

Look at the CPC site, part number SR00196, for example.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:34:20 UTC, wrote:

Yup. I think the only way an unknown alarm bellbox is going to do
anything is if you set it all up to almost invite them to some part of
the outside of the property then scare the crp out of them. Burglars
run entirely on the idea theyre in control, show it aint so and they'll
leave. Fun too

BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very
disorienting too.

One ?

You want at least 4 - strategically aimed

very good at sending the "you're really not welcome here" message


--
geoff

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:59:20 +0100, "nightjar".uk.com wrote:

On a very rural property, I would have a remotely monitored alarm
system, with remotely monitored CCTV covering the approaches, as I do
for my factory units. They are good value for money and the independent
alarm verification given by the CCTV ensures that the Police will
respond.

Out in the sticks the nearest available Police officer, if there is one
and note singular, maybe an hours drive away...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

On 2006-10-01 02:52:13 +0100, raden said:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 21:34:20 UTC, wrote:

Yup. I think the only way an unknown alarm bellbox is going to do
anything is if you set it all up to almost invite them to some part of
the outside of the property then scare the crp out of them. Burglars
run entirely on the idea theyre in control, show it aint so and they'll
leave. Fun too

BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very
disorienting too.

One ?

You want at least 4 - strategically aimed

very good at sending the "you're really not welcome here" message

But what are they?

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
A sound bomb, linked to the alarm, inside the house, is very
disorienting too.

One ?

You want at least 4 - strategically aimed

very good at sending the "you're really not welcome here" message

But what are they?

Just a silly name for a sounder (a device which generates its own
particular noise from a plain supply).

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...x_2/index.html

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

But what are they?

A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 2006-10-01 10:03:59 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

But what are they?

A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

As in very loud beeper?

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 09:17:11 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2006-10-01 10:03:59 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

But what are they?

A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

As in very loud beeper?

Yes...I never sent my reply off last night, but there's a link...

111dB at 1 metre, AFAIR.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 2006-10-01 10:31:50 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 09:17:11 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2006-10-01 10:03:59 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

But what are they?

A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

As in very loud beeper?

Yes...I never sent my reply off last night, but there's a link...

111dB at 1 metre, AFAIR.

Mmmm... That would clear the sinuses....

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
On 2006-10-01 10:31:50 +0100, "Bob Eager" said:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 09:17:11 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2006-10-01 10:03:59 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:

But what are they?

A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

As in very loud beeper?

Yes...I never sent my reply off last night, but there's a link...

111dB at 1 metre, AFAIR.

Mmmm... That would clear the sinuses....

Difficult to carry much with you with a finger stuffed in
each ear...

You can get a similar effect with car alarms by fitting them
in the passenger compartment. I saw a very funny video once
where about 5 joy riders had all squeezed in to a mini-metro.
Driver was fiddling around under the dash when such an alarm
went off. He bashed his head on the stearing column, and the
folks in the back were so despirate to get out they managed
to fold the seat forwards and clamber out with the driver
still wedged half on the seat and half under the dash, with
his head probably less that 6" from the sounder.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

For the more intense at heart theres smoke bombs too, people get
totally lost and disoriented in thick red fog.

Given the majority of alarms are 'false' you're the one likely to be
disorientated. ;-)

that is certainly a design and operation challenge

NT

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sat, 30 Sep 2006 18:59:20 +0100, "nightjar".uk.com wrote:

On a very rural property, I would have a remotely monitored alarm
system, with remotely monitored CCTV covering the approaches, as I do
for my factory units. They are good value for money and the independent
alarm verification given by the CCTV ensures that the Police will
respond.

Out in the sticks the nearest available Police officer, if there is one
and note singular, maybe an hours drive away...

But I wouldn't want to live that far from civilisation. My factories are
about as rural as it is possible to be in SE England. If I am up and
dressed, it takes me about ten minutes to get there from being called, which
the logs show as being within 30-45 seconds of the alarm activating. Over
the years, the Police have failed to be there before me only twice - once
when their car was on the wrong side of a level crossing and once when they
had a ram raid about two minutes before my alarm went off and I saw about 8
Police cars and the helicopter on my journey into the factory.

Colin Bignell

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2006-10-01 10:03:59 +0100, (Andrew
Gabriel) said:

In article ,
Andy Hall writes:
But what are they?
A sounder which generates noise at a level well above the pain
threshold, so it's too painful to hang around.

As in very loud beeper?


Four piezos fed from an oscillator


--
geoff

In article ,
Owain writes:
wrote:
BTW one thing often missing in home security: cameras triggered by the
alarm.

Running an extra switched live wire to all the luminaires allows all the
house lights to be switched on by the alarm.

Struggling to imagine quite how you would connect this up,
but having all your house lights controlled by an integrated
alarm/home-automation system allows you to do much the same.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:19:52 +0100, "nightjar".uk.com wrote:

But I wouldn't want to live that far from civilisation.

It has it's advantages which, IMHO, far out weigh living in any other
area, particulary urban and/or cities.

My factories are about as rural as it is possible to be in SE England.

Ah so not very rural at all in reality. B-) Rural to me means at least
1/2 a mile between buildings and thats for the densely built up parts.
Truely rural is over a couple of miles between buildings.

I saw about 8 Police cars and the helicopter on my journey into the
factory.

Police helicopter, what's one of them? 8 police cars well if the driver
training lot are passing through town at the same time as *all* the local
Police are in and the Area Supervisor then there might just be 8 cars...
It does pee me off a bit that we pay the same for the Police as someone
in an urban area but we don't even get 24/7 cover.

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Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail