Hi, We've got some original 4 panel doors in our Edwardian house.

In order to get a little more light into our kitchen I'd like to remove
the top two wooden panels from a door which leads from our kitchen to
our utility area.

I'm not quite sure how to remove the wooden panels as they were fitted
when the door was made and are held in place by the thicker boards
which make up the remainder of the door.These boards taper inwards to
the panels and it is this tapered bit I need to saw to fit the glass
and keep in place with putty or some other bits of wood.

I'm assuming I'll have to use a circular saw though I don't actually
own one and have never used one. Is this going to be easy to saw or
should I be using some other tool.

As I will also have to purchase 2 panes of toughened glass (along with
the circular saw (£20-£40 ish ?)) it's not going to be a cheap task
and I did consider buying a door with glass fitted from wickes/homebase
etc which cost £50ish. However as my door is at least 3 inches shorter
and narrower than the standard size I don't think that's feasible.

Any advice?

A circular saw will not do the cut you want. It cannot do tight
vertical cuts into corners.

I would use a router (and guide) to make neat cuts to form a rebate on
the stiles and rails (the thick bits of wood), then a hand chisel to
cut the corners square.

(I'm assuming this is a plain 4 panel door with no trims/mouldings and
no screws, or nails, apart from the latch and hinges)

To be honest, if you've never used a circular saw, or unless you're
very experienced with hand tools for joinery, start with some shelves -
not an antique door.

wrote:

Hi, We've got some original 4 panel doors in our Edwardian house.

Any advice?

If you've got nice doors, have a competent trim carpenter do the job.
If you're even considering taking a circular saw to them, then
certainly have a carpenter do it.

Personally I doubt I'd use a powered saw anyway. I'd probably use a
fine hand saw to saw just one half of the beading away from the door,
leaving me with a single-sided rebate in the door instead of a
double-sided groove, and a piece of matching beading ready-made to hold
the glass in place with (I do this quite often installing stained
glass). The saw I use is a specially sharpened and re-set English
veneer saw, made into a miniature Japanese Azebiki saw (short blade,
deep curved belly).

The powered saw to use for this would be a GOOD jigsaw (Blue Bosch,
around £100). If you want to use a cheap jigsaw, then at least take
the door off and work with it well supported on trestles. Good jigsaws
have far less vibration than cheap jigsaws and are essential if you
want to work on a door that's still vertical and wobbling.

Power tools are far too much trouble for me, so I rarely use them. I'd
rather use something that's controllable enough that I can make the
minimum cut and not have to do so much making good afterwards. This
Changing Rooms slash-and-burn approach is far too much work.

Toughened or laminated glass is cheap, so long as you have a good
glazier and don't rush them. These are hard to find these days though
(Roman Glass in Bristol / Bath are good)

wrote:
Hi, We've got some original 4 panel doors in our Edwardian house.

In order to get a little more light into our kitchen I'd like to remove
the top two wooden panels from a door which leads from our kitchen to
our utility area.

I'm not quite sure how to remove the wooden panels as they were fitted
when the door was made and are held in place by the thicker boards
which make up the remainder of the door.These boards taper inwards to
the panels and it is this tapered bit I need to saw to fit the glass
and keep in place with putty or some other bits of wood.

I'm assuming I'll have to use a circular saw though I don't actually
own one and have never used one. Is this going to be easy to saw or
should I be using some other tool.

As I will also have to purchase 2 panes of toughened glass (along with
the circular saw (£20-£40 ish ?)) it's not going to be a cheap task
and I did consider buying a door with glass fitted from wickes/homebase
etc which cost £50ish. However as my door is at least 3 inches shorter
and narrower than the standard size I don't think that's feasible.

Any advice?


All you need do is get the panels out, which is quite easy once you take
a section out of the middle of each one with a jigsaw or whatever. The
bits above and below that can then be split and slid up/down, and then
the two sides moved across and sawn through if necessary. They aren't
normally fixed in any way, just slotted into a groove.
What you're left with then should be the beading intact on one side, and
a square edge on the other. Fill the groove where the panels were and
you have a rebate for the glass. All you need then is some quadrant or
other moulding to hold the glass in on the plain side.
Just done exactly this for a neighbour so let me know if you have queries.

Thanks for the replies so far.

I really like the idea of the Azebiki saw as I'm only doing 8 cuts in
total (4 in each panel and having the wood to replace would be better
than trying to get a match elsewhere.
I've seen them advertised on the internet for £15 to £20 with a 100mm
blade,
eg
http://www.axminster.co.uk/pricing/I...-Saw-20285.htm
Is it relatively easy to use, I presume I could use another piece of
wood as a guide to make sure it's a straight cut or is that not
neccessary?

wrote:
Thanks for the replies so far.

I really like the idea of the Azebiki saw as I'm only doing 8 cuts in
total (4 in each panel and having the wood to replace would be better
than trying to get a match elsewhere.
I've seen them advertised on the internet for £15 to £20 with a 100mm
blade,
eg
http://www.axminster.co.uk/pricing/I...-Saw-20285.htm
Is it relatively easy to use, I presume I could use another piece of
wood as a guide to make sure it's a straight cut or is that not
neccessary?


As already explained, you don't need to cut *anything* on the door
itself, just get the panels out. This job is a lot easier than you're
making it :-)

wrote:

I really like the idea of the Azebiki saw

The Axminster one is too big for this job. I dont get where they think
its usable as a "veneer saw"! Excellent saw though -- particularly
good at lifting floorboards without cutting too far.

You can get smaller ones from better toolshops, but not easily in the
UK --- so I made my own by re-cutting a veneer saw.

We don't know if the panels in this door are held in place by stuck
moulding (part of the frame) or a planted moulding (tacked/glued to the
frame).

It can't necessarily be done by just levering off the moulding on one
side.

wrote:

We don't know if the panels in this door are held in place by stuck
moulding (part of the frame) or a planted moulding (tacked/glued to the
frame).

Unlikely to be a planted moulding on an old wood-panelled door. They
were usually only used on either glazed panels, or sometimes on wood
panels in half-glazed doors. If you can put the panels in when you
assemble the door (i.e. they're not glass) then it's easier to just cut
a groove and do some moulding than it is to fit a bead afterwards.

wrote:
We don't know if the panels in this door are held in place by stuck
moulding (part of the frame) or a planted moulding (tacked/glued to the
frame).

Unless it's a very unusual door, all 4 beads are part of it and can't be
removed. If you did cut them off with a samurai saw, you'd have to
replace them with something similar to hold the glass, so what's the point?
The panel is plain and just sits loose behind the beading in a groove
but, if the door's painted, you can't always see this clearly. Tap a
paint scraper between the panel and the bead to verify.

It can't necessarily be done by just levering off the moulding on one
side.
No, don't go there. Nothing's removable. Trust me on this one :-)

I've had another look at the door and the beading is part of the frame
(and part of the t section in the middle). The panel seems fairly stuck
in this door but in some of the others it moves about 7.5 mm in both
directions and I'm sure it's the same type of door.
I can't see how I'd get a glass pane in without cutting beading on one
side.

wrote:
I've had another look at the door and the beading is part of the frame
(and part of the t section in the middle). The panel seems fairly stuck
in this door but in some of the others it moves about 7.5 mm in both
directions and I'm sure it's the same type of door.
I can't see how I'd get a glass pane in without cutting beading on one
side.


You put the glass in from the *other* side and it sits against the
existing beading. It's held in position by the new beading that you're
going to cut and fix to the other side. It'll all be clear when you get
the panels out.....

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
I've had another look at the door and the beading is part of the frame
(and part of the t section in the middle). The panel seems fairly stuck
in this door but in some of the others it moves about 7.5 mm in both
directions and I'm sure it's the same type of door.
I can't see how I'd get a glass pane in without cutting beading on one
side.


You put the glass in from the *other* side and it sits against the
existing beading. It's held in position by the new beading that you're
going to cut and fix to the other side. It'll all be clear when you get
the panels out.....

Sorry, a correction to that. Most of the old doors round here are beaded
on one side and plain on the other. If yours has moulding on both sides,
you may well need your Japanese saw after all. Take the panels out first
and see what has to go.

wrote:

To be honest, if you've never used a circular saw, or unless you're very
experienced with hand tools for joinery, start with some shelves -not an antique door.

Offer it on eBay and buy a new door to suit.

Hi, sorry for not being clearer in my last posting.
The beading is on both sides of the door.
The only way to get the wood panel out and the glass pane in is to saw
through the beading or else take the door apart as it seems the panel
was fitted when the door was made. The latter isn't really an option as
it has a solid mortice and tenon joint with wedges(wrong term!) and
glue.
I've found these veneer saws which should do the trick (I think) , see
the veneer or fine inlay saws
http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/lynx.html

wrote:
Hi, sorry for not being clearer in my last posting.
The beading is on both sides of the door.
The only way to get the wood panel out and the glass pane in is to saw
through the beading or else take the door apart as it seems the panel
was fitted when the door was made. The latter isn't really an option
as it has a solid mortice and tenon joint with wedges(wrong term!) and
glue.
I've found these veneer saws which should do the trick (I think) , see
the veneer or fine inlay saws
http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/lynx.html

To get the panels out you must use a jigsaw to as near the beading or the
square inlay edge as possible,once the bulk of the panel is out use a 1/4"
chisle to take out 3" to 4" of the wood thats left in the recess of the
square and do this the other side as well also do it going with the
grain,remove the 3"/4" pieces and the rest will slide out at an angle

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
To get the panels out you must use a jigsaw to as near the beading or the
square inlay edge as possible,once the bulk of the panel is out use a 1/4"
chisle to take out 3" to 4" of the wood thats left in the recess of the
square and do this the other side as well also do it going with the
grain,remove the 3"/4" pieces and the rest will slide out at an angle

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Yes, that will get the wood panel out but doesn't explain how I'll
replace it with a glass pane.

wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
To get the panels out you must use a jigsaw to as near the beading
or the square inlay edge as possible,once the bulk of the panel is
out use a 1/4" chisle to take out 3" to 4" of the wood thats left in
the recess of the square and do this the other side as well also do
it going with the grain,remove the 3"/4" pieces and the rest will
slide out at an angle

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Yes, that will get the wood panel out but doesn't explain how I'll
replace it with a glass pane.

You're going to have to use beading on each side of the panelling,short of
taking the door apart which is not practical.

The glass will have to be cut the depth of on one recess of the lower depth
and one of the side depths so that you can fit it into the recess and then
keep it in place with the beading with additional putty in the recesses to
stop any movement although if the beading is tight up against the glass it
shouldn't move? but I'd go along with the putty as well for piece of mind.
The only way I can see it working.

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

wrote:

I've found these veneer saws which should do the trick

A veneer saw has the wrong sort of teeth (although the shape of the
blank is good). If you expect to use one for ripping, then you'll need
to re-cut the teeth first. This isn't the simplest of tasks! -- but if
you find an old '50s woodworking handbook (search for "Charles Hayward"
on eBay) then you might get a good hint on doing it.

Stuart Noble wrote:
wrote:
Hi, We've got some original 4 panel doors in our Edwardian house.

In order to get a little more light into our kitchen I'd like to
remove the top two wooden panels from a door which leads from our
kitchen to our utility area.

I'm not quite sure how to remove the wooden panels as they were
fitted when the door was made and are held in place by the thicker
boards which make up the remainder of the door.These boards taper
inwards to the panels and it is this tapered bit I need to saw to
fit the glass and keep in place with putty or some other bits of
wood.

I'm assuming I'll have to use a circular saw though I don't actually
own one and have never used one. Is this going to be easy to saw or
should I be using some other tool.

As I will also have to purchase 2 panes of toughened glass (along
with the circular saw (£20-£40 ish ?)) it's not going to be a cheap
task and I did consider buying a door with glass fitted from
wickes/homebase etc which cost £50ish. However as my door is at
least 3 inches shorter and narrower than the standard size I don't
think that's feasible.

Any advice?


All you need do is get the panels out, which is quite easy once you
take a section out of the middle of each one with a jigsaw or
whatever. The bits above and below that can then be split and slid
up/down, and then the two sides moved across and sawn through if
necessary. They aren't normally fixed in any way, just slotted into a
groove.
What you're left with then should be the beading intact on one side,
and a square edge on the other. Fill the groove where the panels were
and
you have a rebate for the glass. All you need then is some quadrant or
other moulding to hold the glass in on the plain side.
Just done exactly this for a neighbour so let me know if you have
queries.

If he can get a larger piece piece of the panelling out then he could use
this as the beading, that way its an exact match to the wood. :-)

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
To get the panels out you must use a jigsaw to as near the beading or the
square inlay edge as possible,once the bulk of the panel is out use a 1/4"
chisle to take out 3" to 4" of the wood thats left in the recess of the
square and do this the other side as well also do it going with the
grain,remove the 3"/4" pieces and the rest will slide out at an angle

--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Yes, that will get the wood panel out but doesn't explain how I'll
replace it with a glass pane.


Once the panels are out you need to get rid of the beading on one side
to get glass in. Ideal job for a router really but, to saw it off, I'd
try a tenon saw against a batten, at least on the long lengths. The
short sides will probably be too short to get any movement on the saw.
You might even get away with a Stanley knife on these. It doesn't have
to be that neat a job as you can always tidy up with a chisel. Or use a
wide chisel for the whole thing if you feel competent. Try and keep the
line straight though. Chances are the glass will be thinner than the
panel, so this cut will be an exposed corner when the new beads are in.
I'd use a general purpose sealant to bed the glass in. You don't want
anything that's going to dry out and rattle. Take the door round the
glaziers if you're fed up with it all by then. I know I would. Probably
quicker to do all this than explain it

Stuart Noble wrote:
Take the door round the
glaziers if you're fed up with it all by then. I know I would. Probably
quicker to do all this than explain it

And better still to sell it as is, and buy something fit for purpose?

Douglas de Lacey

Douglas de Lacey wrote:
Stuart Noble wrote:
Take the door round the
glaziers if you're fed up with it all by then. I know I would.
Probably quicker to do all this than explain it

And better still to sell it as is, and buy something fit for purpose?

Douglas de Lacey

Don't think the market for undersized doors is very buoyant, and fitting
a new one isn't a walk in the park either.