My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
son was staying with her, has gone out earlier and locked the front
door with the mortice lock from the outside. It's simply because he's
not used to the flat and locked the door 'automatically' as he went
out.

Yes, OK, my daughter should have a key but she can't find it at the
moment.

It's not a disaster at the moment because there is no danger, only
some inconvenience, but the safety implications do worry me slightly.

What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency? Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

--
Chris Green

wrote:
My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

--
Chris Green

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/dp...oducts_id/3522

The message
from contains these words:

Alternatively is there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

Our neighbours on either side have keys - makes life a lot easier.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency?

Fit a security latch, such as a Yale PBS1. However, these are only secure if
there isn't an easily broken pane of glass that can be reached through to
open the door. If there is such an arrangement, then the handle needs to be
locked and you are back to square one.

Christian.

Alternatively is there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

Simplest solution:

http://www.crownfire.co.uk/item87.htm

Phil wrote:

wrote:
My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

--
Chris Green

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/dp...oducts_id/3522

That's a very expensive small box! Given that in our case this is
actually inside the flat it doesn't need to be quite so tamper proof.
However, is it any more secure than hanging a spare key on a hook, or
fixing it with a piece of chain so that it can't be taken away by
mistake?

--
Chris Green

Guy King wrote:
The message
from contains these words:

Alternatively is there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

Our neighbours on either side have keys - makes life a lot easier.

OK as long as they're not out and you can contact them in an
emergency (e.g. fire) in your flat.

--
Chris Green

Christian McArdle wrote:
What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency?

Fit a security latch, such as a Yale PBS1. However, these are only secure if
there isn't an easily broken pane of glass that can be reached through to
open the door. If there is such an arrangement, then the handle needs to be
locked and you are back to square one.

No, it's a pretty solid front door with no adjacent glass, the only
risk is the letter box and I'm sure we can make the latch far enough
from that to be inaccessible.

That seems like the solution, thanks!

--
Chris Green

Phil wrote:
wrote:
My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

--
Chris Green

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/dp...oducts_id/3522

What a ridiculous suggestion! If you're going to have a spare key
available why not just hide it in a cupboard (or similar) near the door
(or even hung on a hook if it's not in reach)? No need for an 'orrible
looking box!

Mathew

wrote:

My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
son was staying with her, has gone out earlier and locked the front
door with the mortice lock from the outside. It's simply because he's
not used to the flat and locked the door 'automatically' as he went
out.

Yes, OK, my daughter should have a key but she can't find it at the
moment.

It's not a disaster at the moment because there is no danger, only
some inconvenience, but the safety implications do worry me slightly.

What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency?

keyless opening makes burglary a good deal easier. Keyed opening leaves
only one option: hide a key and/or each person carries a key.


Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

just always carry a key. I dont see any way round that, and it works
well.


NT

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:37:22 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Fit a security latch, such as a Yale PBS1. However, these are only secure if
there isn't an easily broken pane of glass that can be reached through to
open the door. If there is such an arrangement, then the handle needs to be
locked and you are back to square one.

and then you'll get.....

"My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked OUT of her
flat, dressed only in a towel she just stepped out of the door to put
the wheely bin by the gate and the door slammed behind her with a gust
of wind and locked automatically, her husband is 300 miles away at a
conference with his mistress and the baby is crying upstairs because
it needs a nappy change"

Locks like that are the spawn of the devil, they might possibly offer
security but in terms of ease of use they are messy and the potential
for screwing up what was a perfectly nice day is enormous.


--

Mathew Newton wrote:
Phil wrote:
wrote:
My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

--
Chris Green

http://www.safeoptions.co.uk/sotn/dp...oducts_id/3522

What a ridiculous suggestion! If you're going to have a spare key
available why not just hide it in a cupboard (or similar) near the door
(or even hung on a hook if it's not in reach)? No need for an 'orrible
looking box!

Mathew
Hang it on a hook (out of reach) by all means, or hide it - but human
nature being what it is you can guarantee it will get 'borrowed' for
some obscure reason and not put back. Then it won't be there when it is
needed. Much less temptation if you have to break the glass/find a pair
of cutters.

Locks like that are the spawn of the devil, they might possibly offer
security but in terms of ease of use they are messy and the potential
for screwing up what was a perfectly nice day is enormous.

You simply don't leave the house unless you either have a key, someone
inside to let you back in, or put it on the latch. If you can't manage that,
you shouldn't be allowed a key. Indeed, you should be stuck in a mental
hospital bed and strapped down for gross stupidity.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

Locks like that are the spawn of the devil, they might possibly offer
security but in terms of ease of use they are messy and the potential
for screwing up what was a perfectly nice day is enormous.

You simply don't leave the house unless you either have a key, someone
inside to let you back in, or put it on the latch. If you can't manage that,
you shouldn't be allowed a key. Indeed, you should be stuck in a mental
hospital bed and strapped down for gross stupidity.

Christian.

Lol, maybe true. But IRL many people are surprisingly careless
routinely, so it does go wrong.


NT

On 22 Aug 2006 08:42:33 GMT, wrote:

My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
son was staying with her, has gone out earlier and locked the front
door with the mortice lock from the outside. It's simply because he's
not used to the flat and locked the door 'automatically' as he went
out.

Yes, OK, my daughter should have a key but she can't find it at the
moment.

It's not a disaster at the moment because there is no danger, only
some inconvenience, but the safety implications do worry me slightly.

What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency? Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

You can get cylinders for Euro type locks which have key on one side and a knob on the other :

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Cylinders.html

Mike Harrison wrote:
On 22 Aug 2006 08:42:33 GMT, wrote:

My daughter has just phoned me up because she's locked in her flat, my
son was staying with her, has gone out earlier and locked the front
door with the mortice lock from the outside. It's simply because he's
not used to the flat and locked the door 'automatically' as he went
out.

Yes, OK, my daughter should have a key but she can't find it at the
moment.

It's not a disaster at the moment because there is no danger, only
some inconvenience, but the safety implications do worry me slightly.

What is the accepted/normal/safe way of dealing with this? Are there
any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always enable the
door to be opened from the inside in an emergency? Alternatively is
there a way of guaranteeing an accessible key?

You can get cylinders for Euro type locks which have key on one side and a knob on the other :

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Cylinders.html

That seems a possible solution too, thanks.

--
Chris Green

You can get cylinders for Euro type locks which have key on one side and
a knob on the other :

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Cylinders.html

That seems a possible solution too, thanks.

They are useful if you have a Euro lock type door, typically a uPVC or
aluminium type. Mortice and latch type locks are normally fitted to wooden
doors.

Christian.

In message , at 08:42:33 on
Tue, 22 Aug 2006, remarked:
Are there any sorts of locks one can have which are secure but always
enable the door to be opened from the inside in an emergency?

Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front
door to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through
the bathroom window they gained access through).
--
Roland Perry

The message
from "Christian McArdle" contains
these words:

You simply don't leave the house unless you either have a key, someone
inside to let you back in, or put it on the latch. If you can't manage
that,
you shouldn't be allowed a key. Indeed, you should be stuck in a mental
hospital bed and strapped down for gross stupidity.

D'yer know, I wish I was perfect in every way like you. But I reckon on
balance I'll just stay as a human.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from Huge contains these words:

keyless opening makes burglary a good deal easier.

I doubt that. Most burglars get in by brute force.

It's the getting out again that's the difference.

It's one thing to break in by smashing a small window and climbing in.
Getting out that way with a stereo and a telly under your arm takes ages
and is far more likely to attract attention. If the door can be opened
from inside without a key they can just walk in and out as if they owned
the place.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

Christian.

In uk.d-i-y, Christian McArdle wrote:
Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

Or if the scrotes wake them up and ask none-too-nicely for the key.

--
Mike Barnes

Christian McArdle wrote:

Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

Part of the house initiation should be showing the escape routes and
where to kick and how hard to get out. Admittedly there are rather more
important things to get on with when moving in. People only get trapped
by wooden doors when they dont know what theyre doing, or are very
frail.


NT

Christian McArdle wrote:
You can get cylinders for Euro type locks which have key on one side and
a knob on the other :

http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Cylinders.html

That seems a possible solution too, thanks.

They are useful if you have a Euro lock type door, typically a uPVC or
aluminium type. Mortice and latch type locks are normally fitted to wooden
doors.

Christian.

I'm sorry but that's a load of C****.

Euro locks as recommended are absolutley the solution to this problem
and it astonished me that this thread got to something like 20 posts
long before someone made the most sensible and obvious solution. In
fact shame on the lot of you as DIY'ers that you all came up with such
usefless suggestions.

There is absolutely no reason at all why they cannot be fitted to
wooden doors - I've fitted one to a modern wooden door and one to an
old wooden door without any thoughts of their being difficulties. Euro
locks are a dead lock operated externally with a Yale type key and
internally with just a turn knob. Further more they are cheap - £7
out of Screwfix.

Rob

wrote:


Part of the house initiation should be showing the escape routes and
where to kick and how hard to get out. Admittedly there are rather more
important things to get on with when moving in. People only get trapped
by wooden doors when they dont know what theyre doing, or are very
frail.

NT

My father always insisted that if you stayed somewhere new - hotel,
etc. - there were two things to be identified immediately, where to
have a pee and where to get out in an emergency. The first I've always
considered the more important and pressing (on occasions!), but have
always noted the latter as well.

Rob

The message
from Owain contains these words:

When I stayed in the Regent Palace Hotel[1] and on the 7th floor I
thought it would be a good idea to check the fire exit.


[1] Doesn't everyone stay there *once*?

Not having been behind the scenes to do some work there, no.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

The message
from Owain contains these words:

So I did, and discovered a sweet trolley[2] across the door at the
bottom. Phone call to Hotel Security. "Oh it won't be there for very
long sir." "It shouldn't be there in the first place."

I used to work in a small electronics workshop in Warren Street on the
second floor. The fire escape came out into Grafton Mews and the doors
were recessed into the side of the building so it was possible to park
across them without stopping them opening - but once open you couldn't
go anywhere.

There was a Golf that was parked right across the doors every day - we
spoke to the driver and got a mouthful of abuse. The local rozzer
reckoned that though he could do something it might be easier if we just
dealt with it ourself.

So we set off the fire alarm, all piled down the stairs to the bottom,
opened the door and turned the car over.

Much amusement that afternoon when the bod flipped his lid. Local police
were very polite to him and pointed out that if he liked he was welcome
to pursue us through the courts and wished him the best of luck.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

On 22 Aug 2006 14:10:38 -0700, "robgraham"
wrote:

|
|Christian McArdle wrote:
| You can get cylinders for Euro type locks which have key on one side and
| a knob on the other :
|
| http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Cylinders.html
|
| That seems a possible solution too, thanks.
|
| They are useful if you have a Euro lock type door, typically a uPVC or
| aluminium type. Mortice and latch type locks are normally fitted to wooden
| doors.
|
| Christian.
|
|I'm sorry but that's a load of C****.
|
|Euro locks as recommended are absolutley the solution to this problem
|and it astonished me that this thread got to something like 20 posts
|long before someone made the most sensible and obvious solution. In
|fact shame on the lot of you as DIY'ers that you all came up with such
|usefless suggestions.
|
|There is absolutely no reason at all why they cannot be fitted to
|wooden doors - I've fitted one to a modern wooden door and one to an
|old wooden door without any thoughts of their being difficulties. Euro
|locks are a dead lock operated externally with a Yale type key and
|internally with just a turn knob. Further more they are cheap - ?7
|out of Screwfix.

Except that they are designed to work more complex locking mechanisms with
several bolts and such like linked to the lock, mine has about seven.

--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:58:24 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

Christian.

I must be missing something here, why can't you use the back door if
the front is unopenable for whatever reason. There should be, and in
modern properties there must be, an alternative exit method. There
should not be a safety issue if the front or any other door is not
accessible.

Except that they are designed to work more complex locking mechanisms with
several bolts and such like linked to the lock, mine has about seven.


They are for universal use:
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/...00224&ts=18279

Nice features are the interchangability of barrels in a couple of
minutes between key/key and turn/key, the ready replacement after loss
of a key or change of owner and the availability of controlled key
profles for high security applications (keys can only be supplied
against documentation, no high st key copying).

I like the feel of old chubb keys/deadlocks - but europrofile is
superior for the above reasons.

In message , at 17:58:24
on Tue, 22 Aug 2006, Christian McArdle
remarked:
Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD.

Your uninsured DVD (well, you may be paying the premium, but they won't
pay a claim).

I do care if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked
front door.

Yes, as I was pointing out, there are conflicting issues here.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 07:21:24 on
Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Edward W. Thompson
remarked:
Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

I must be missing something here, why can't you use the back door if
the front is unopenable for whatever reason.

Yes, what you are missing is that the insurance company wants all
external doors to be locked, and no keys accessible (let alone on the
lock).
--
Roland Perry

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:58:24 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Curiously enough your insurance company (according to their T&C) doesn't
like that sort of thing because it means burglars can use your front door
to remove your possession (rather than having to post them through the
bathroom window they gained access through).

Sod the insurance company. I don't care if burglars nick the DVD. I do care
if I find the remains of my charred family by the locked front door.

Christian.

I must be missing something here, why can't you use the back door if
the front is unopenable for whatever reason. There should be, and in
modern properties there must be, an alternative exit method. There
should not be a safety issue if the front or any other door is not
accessible.

My original question was about a flat where there isn't any *easy*
alternative access.

--
Chris Green

Ah, good point, and one that hadn't occured to me. All our doors
have mortice deadlocks anyway.

Security latches like the PBS1 do allow you to lock the handle. This means
you can use two modes, leaving on latching operation at night, so you don't
all die in an inferno and locking the handle when out.

Christian.

They are useful if you have a Euro lock type door, typically a uPVC or
aluminium type. Mortice and latch type locks are normally fitted to
wooden
doors.

I'm sorry but that's a load of C****.

Obviously you don't know the meaning of the words "typically" and "usually".
They do not exclude other possibilities. I didn't claim that they were not
available.

However, Euro type locks on wooden doors are quite rare. They frequently
require considerable modification to the door, as they generally incorporate
espagnolette mechanisms, or considerable hollowing out of the door for a
mortice type.

I've certainly seen simple Euro cylinder based mortice locks available, but
haven't come across one claiming BS3621 approval, which is an absolute
requirement for front door security.

Actually, I have now found one, the Chubb 3C24/C. The total cost being
around 80 quid. However, I believe this is not allowed to be a Euro turn
handle cylinder, as I suspect BS3621 requires any lever/turn to be lockable.

Christian.

I must be missing something here, why can't you use the back door if
the front is unopenable for whatever reason. There should be, and in
modern properties there must be, an alternative exit method. There
should not be a safety issue if the front or any other door is not
accessible.

We have a back door. The front door is at the bottom of the stairs. The back
door is through the back room and kitchen, both very likely rooms for the
fire to be in, either from cooking, malfunctioning appliances or forgotten
candles.

Christian.

Part of the house initiation should be showing the escape routes and
where to kick and how hard to get out.

Indeed. My 7 year old knows exactly how to get out of the house. She knows
that she must leave everything behind. Explaining how insurance worked
helped here, as she was very resistant to the idea of leaving stuff behind.
She knows how to open her window, which leads onto the conservatory roof.
She knows the absolute golden rule of house evacuation: DO NOT HIDE!

Unfortunately, the 2 year old and 6 month old aren't quite ready for this
information and even the 7 year old could not possibly kick open our stout
inward opening front door. I'm not sure I could, TBH.

Christian.

However, Euro type locks on wooden doors are quite rare. They frequently
require considerable modification to the door, as they generally incorporate
espagnolette mechanisms, or considerable hollowing out of the door for a
mortice type.

I don't think that's true any more. Euro profiles in the last 2 flats I
had in London, and the last 3 offices I worked in, all as mortices in
wood(-ish) doors. Particularly in the business environment (or anything
commercially leased), I think they predominate due to rekeying from
time to time.

I don't think that's true any more. Euro profiles in the last 2 flats I
had in London, and the last 3 offices I worked in, all as mortices in
wood(-ish) doors.

Indeed. However, AFAICT, it is not possible to get a BS3621 high security
type with thumb turn.

Christian.

wrote:
However, Euro type locks on wooden doors are quite rare. They frequently
require considerable modification to the door, as they generally incorporate
espagnolette mechanisms, or considerable hollowing out of the door for a
mortice type.

I don't think that's true any more. Euro profiles in the last 2 flats I
had in London, and the last 3 offices I worked in, all as mortices in
wood(-ish) doors. Particularly in the business environment (or anything
commercially leased), I think they predominate due to rekeying from
time to time.

Example

http://www.ordior.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/eurolock.html

--
djc