I have just removed the chimney breast from the rear of my victorian
terrace and noticed that even though there is no real cavity there is a
gap of about an inch. I'm about to brick up the whole left by the
chimney breast but wondered if there is anything I can put in the small
cavity to improve the insulation.

On a related point, I have been browsing the web trying to find out how
to improve the insulation of solid walls. There is plently of general
advice -it sounds like the best option is external insulation- but I
can't find a company who actually supply the materials required or a
company which will install external insulation.

Does anyone have experience with this? I live in Aldershot, Hampshire.

Considering the number of houses in the UK with solid walls it is
surprisingly hard to persue this option. Loft insulation and cavity
wall insulation seem to get all the attention. I suppose these
approaches have a better return on investment, but I can't see all the
victorian houses being demolished any time soon so I would expect to
find more companies offering solutions.

thanks
Thomas

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have just removed the chimney breast from the rear of my victorian
terrace and noticed that even though there is no real cavity there is a
gap of about an inch. I'm about to brick up the whole left by the
chimney breast but wondered if there is anything I can put in the small
cavity to improve the insulation.

No, anything less than 50mm is useless where CWI is concerned.


On a related point, I have been browsing the web trying to find out how
to improve the insulation of solid walls. There is plently of general
advice -it sounds like the best option is external insulation- but I
can't find a company who actually supply the materials required or a
company which will install external insulation.

There are plenty of them, Millfold are one of the better ones:
http://www.millfold.co.uk/external_wall.php


Does anyone have experience with this? I live in Aldershot, Hampshire.

Considering the number of houses in the UK with solid walls it is
surprisingly hard to persue this option. Loft insulation and cavity
wall insulation seem to get all the attention. I suppose these
approaches have a better return on investment, but I can't see all the
victorian houses being demolished any time soon so I would expect to
find more companies offering solutions.

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will never
turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for installing,
also your house has to be rendered, something that is fast turning
prospective homebuyers off.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I have just removed the chimney breast from the rear of my victorian
terrace and noticed that even though there is no real cavity there is a
gap of about an inch. I'm about to brick up the whole left by the
chimney breast but wondered if there is anything I can put in the small
cavity to improve the insulation.

On a related point, I have been browsing the web trying to find out how
to improve the insulation of solid walls. There is plently of general
advice -it sounds like the best option is external insulation- but I
can't find a company who actually supply the materials required or a
company which will install external insulation.

Does anyone have experience with this? I live in Aldershot, Hampshire.

Considering the number of houses in the UK with solid walls it is
surprisingly hard to persue this option. Loft insulation and cavity
wall insulation seem to get all the attention. I suppose these
approaches have a better return on investment, but I can't see all the
victorian houses being demolished any time soon so I would expect to
find more companies offering solutions.

thanks
Thomas


External insulation is a possibility but in my similar age property I intend
to insulate the walls-without-windows internally and put double glazing in
the walls with windows (sash box removal). This leaves the existing sash
box and nice appearance and while not perfect shoudl be much better than
oringally.
The rooms are reasonably large in my case and it can be done room by room.
One thing I know I will have to be careful with in ssealing between the cold
wall and the now warmer wall to prevent condensation.
There may be better ways.

2p
Jon

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will never
turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually. Also,
if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

wrote:

I have just removed the chimney breast from the rear of my victorian
terrace and noticed that even though there is no real cavity there is a
gap of about an inch.

sounds suspiciously like a cavity to me.

The original reason for these cavities was to keep out damp, mainly in
coastal areas. If the outer leaf got wet the inner would stay dry.

Applying insulation on the surface works as well, and you can put a lot
more there, but of course its not as cheap.

Insulation on the interior keeps the outside looking good, but loses
the temp stabilising effect of the masonry's thermal capacity. It also
means replastering. Outside insulation means rendering over it. The
general best bet is internal insulation at the front, maintaining good
appearance, and exterior insulation elsewhere.

Materials for solid insulation are not hard to come by, I wonder if
youre just not sure what to get.


NT

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for
installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior insulation takes
much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be warmer in
winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing, not saving money -
if saving money is your ultimate goal you are wasting your time bothering
because you won't save anything.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost for
installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior insulation takes
much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be warmer in
winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing, not saving money -
if saving money is your ultimate goal you are wasting your time bothering
because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

...sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

none of that makes your figures accurate.


NT

wrote:
Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep
the words short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an
explanation he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional

none of that makes your figures accurate.


NT

Obviously the 20 years should have read as 10 years, 500 divided by 60 is
easy enough to work out.

Phil L wrote:

wrote:
Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?


snip


If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.


snip


Obviously the 20 years should have read as 10 years, 500 divided by 60 is
easy enough to work out.

You've forgotten depreciation, return-on-investment, opportunity costs,
cost of capital, and all the other things accountants like to bamboozle
us lesser mortals with.

Think of it this way. Assume, for the sake of argument, you can get 5%
interest on money.

Invest 500 pounds. After 1 year, you have 525 pounds (25 pounds more).
After 10 years you'd have about 814 pounds (314 pounds more), after 15
years about 1039 pounds (539 pounds more), and after 20 years you'd
have about 1,326 pounds (826 pounds more).

Spend 500 pounds on insulation. After 1 year, you save 60 pounds,
meaning you are only 440 pounds in the red. After 10 years you have
saved 600 pounds, putting you 100 pounds in the black but you still
have 214 pounds less than if you had invested the money instead. After
15 years you have saved 900 pounds, putting you 400 pounds in the
black, but still 139 pounds less than if you had invested the money,
and after 20 years, you have saved 1200 pounds, putting you 700 pounds
in the black, but STILL less than if you had invested the money.

Now you can argue over 5% is reasonable, and whether your cost savings
would improve as the price of fuel increases, and maybe you have had
the benefit of a warmer house - (all things that accountants have fun
with), but payback is not simple.

Cheers,

Sid

wrote:
Phil L wrote:
wrote:
Phil L wrote:
marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:
wrote:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.

Obviously the 20 years should have read as 10 years, 500 divided by 60 is
easy enough to work out.

You've forgotten depreciation, return-on-investment, opportunity costs,
cost of capital, and all the other things accountants like to bamboozle
us lesser mortals with.

Think of it this way. Assume, for the sake of argument, you can get 5%
interest on money.

Invest 500 pounds. After 1 year, you have 525 pounds (25 pounds more).
After 10 years you'd have about 814 pounds (314 pounds more), after 15
years about 1039 pounds (539 pounds more), and after 20 years you'd
have about 1,326 pounds (826 pounds more).

Spend 500 pounds on insulation. After 1 year, you save 60 pounds,
meaning you are only 440 pounds in the red. After 10 years you have
saved 600 pounds, putting you 100 pounds in the black but you still
have 214 pounds less than if you had invested the money instead. After
15 years you have saved 900 pounds, putting you 400 pounds in the
black, but still 139 pounds less than if you had invested the money,
and after 20 years, you have saved 1200 pounds, putting you 700 pounds
in the black, but STILL less than if you had invested the money.

Now you can argue over 5% is reasonable, and whether your cost savings
would improve as the price of fuel increases, and maybe you have had
the benefit of a warmer house - (all things that accountants have fun
with), but payback is not simple.

Cheers,

Sid

Indeed. There are also the other 2 real life factors: with savings some
people will just blow them on nothing, some will use them as a valuable
backup fund, and for some the other option is to pay off some debt.

But still it doesnt tell us much unless he uses more realistic figures.


NT

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:00:53 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it will
never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has cost
for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long as
the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself eventually.
Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep the words
short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he will have
broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will cost
him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with me so far? -
this means it will take him at least 58 years just to break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an explanation
he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional


Cavity Wall Insulation reduces heat loss by upto 1/3
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/domesticll.php?CLASSIFICATION=59&PARENT=54
or prove otherwise!

So more like savings of £250 / year for a house that costs £500 to
insulate. Even ignoring the grants and rapid increases in fuel costs
it pays for itself in just over 2 years.

25mm Celotex has thermal resistance of 1.05 m2k/w compared to 4 1/2
inch brick thickness of 0.132. So an inch of celotex has same theremal
resistance as a yard thickness of bricks. Far from "useless".

Sorry about my abusive tone earlier, I have a hard life

marvelus wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:00:53 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

marvelus wrote:
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:02:06 GMT, "Phil L"
wrote:

wrote:
It's a lot more expensive than normal CWI, so much so that it
will never turn a profit - you will never save as much as it has
cost for installing,

You mean the return is less than mortgage interest rates? As long
as the return is higher than this wont it pay for itself
eventually. Also, if fuel prices rise wont the pay back time
reduce?

thanks
Thomas

Conventional CWI takes decades to pay for itself, exterior
insulation takes much longer, because A) It costs more, and B) It's
not as effective.

That's not to say it shouldn't be installed - the house will be
warmer in winter and cooler in summer, and this is the main thing,
not saving money - if saving money is your ultimate goal you are
wasting your time bothering because you won't save anything.


your full of ****

sorry

Perhaps my earlier comments have confused you? - I'll try to keep
the words short so that you can follow:

If he spends £500 on conventional CWI, and saves £60 per year, he
will have broke even in less than 20 years, everything after that is
profit.
If on the other hand he chooses to have exterior insulation, it will
cost him probably £3,500 and save him less than £60 per year - with
me so far? - this means it will take him at least 58 years just to
break even.

..sorry about having to use the word 'conventional', there's an
explanation he
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conventional


Cavity Wall Insulation reduces heat loss by upto 1/3
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/domesticll.php?CLASSIFICATION=59&PARENT=54
or prove otherwise!


I don't neeed to prove otherwise, I've installed CWI (both fibreglass and
rockwool) in over 5,000 houses including my own (obviously!) and the savings
are nothing like those claimed.

So more like savings of £250 / year for a house that costs £500 to
insulate. Even ignoring the grants and rapid increases in fuel costs
it pays for itself in just over 2 years.


I'm afraid people are forgetting that moey used to be worth a lot more than
it is now, IE if someone paid £200 for CWI 15 years ago, that £200 is like a
grand today, so regardless of fuel prices, interest rates and everything
else, that person is still in the red.

25mm Celotex has thermal resistance of 1.05 m2k/w compared to 4 1/2
inch brick thickness of 0.132. So an inch of celotex has same theremal
resistance as a yard thickness of bricks. Far from "useless".


Solid insulation is not CWI, celotex can't be inserted into an existing
cavity as the OP mentioned, nor can kingspan, polystyrene or anything else
in rigid or semi rigid form, his only option (apart from exterior
insulation) is to have it blown, and blown insulation is useless at less
than 50mm thick.

Sorry about my abusive tone earlier, I have a hard life

on the blob?

Solid insulation is not CWI, celotex can't be inserted into an existing
cavity as the OP mentioned, nor can kingspan, polystyrene or anything else
in rigid or semi rigid form, his only option (apart from exterior
insulation) is to have it blown, and blown insulation is useless at less
than 50mm thick.

Are you saying solid insulation can't be inserted into an existing
cavaity because of access? I do have access at the moment as I have
removed the chimney breast. I am about to brick it in. The wall is
quite small so only about 2 feet of the interior wall remains - I could
slide something into the remaining cavity. Also, now that I have
removed most of the chimney breast I have better access and can see
that the cavity is between 40 and 50mm.

Which would be the best option, rebuild the internal wall and then have
it blown, or fit some insulation before building the wall. If the
latter, can I just buy panels of insulation for that purpose? What are
they called?

thanks
Thomas

wrote:

Which would be the best option, rebuild the internal wall and then have
it blown, or fit some insulation before building the wall.

ALWAYS fit as you build if you can.

Not sure if rockwool cavity batts still meet regs, but they used to and
are cheap.

Kingspan/celotex is better though.


If the
latter, can I just buy panels of insulation for that purpose? What are
they called?

Batts is what the soggy stuff is called.

Kingspan and celotex are sold in sheets and you must cut to fit.


thanks
Thomas