I'm getting a bit fed up with the authorities telling us that rain in summer
is no real help for our struggling(?) water supply industry. (Due to
evaporation, transpiration from trees etc.)

A few days ago we had what I guess was a cloudburst, and I'd estimate that
the rainfall rate maximum was of the order of 6in/hour. (This is based on
the observation that a wheelbarrow in the garden which was 1/2 full before
the storm was full to the top and overflowing after around 10-15 minutes of
torrential downpour, and I've tried to take the shape into account. (At
the same time my gutters were discharging huge quantities of water where
their walls were slightly lower than elsewhere. Very dramatic, caught it
all on video.)

So, seeing all this water go to waste via my garden and presumably, the
local River Great Ouse, I started thinking about how we could improve the
storage of water in these downpours and flash floods. In domestic gardens,
we could increase the number of water-butts dramatically and arrange that
when one is full, others are then filled. In Milton Keynes we have a number
of balancing lakes designed not to store water for local usage (other than
as nature reserves, boating lakes), but primarily to reduce flooding down
stream of Milton Keynes.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that simply letting summer flood
water flow un-impeded into the river system is wasting a huge resource, but
apart from lots of water butts, I can't think of any better way of storing
it. Is there more that could be done by increasing the number of
underground resevoirs?

Any comments? Normally plenty of experts here!

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Malcolm Stewart" wrote in
message .. .
I'm getting a bit fed up with the authorities telling us that rain in
summer is no real help for our struggling(?) water supply industry. (Due
to evaporation, transpiration from trees etc.)

A few days ago we had what I guess was a cloudburst, and I'd estimate that
the rainfall rate maximum was of the order of 6in/hour. (This is based on
the observation that a wheelbarrow in the garden which was 1/2 full before
the storm was full to the top and overflowing after around 10-15 minutes
of torrential downpour, and I've tried to take the shape into account.
(At the same time my gutters were discharging huge quantities of water
where their walls were slightly lower than elsewhere. Very dramatic,
caught it all on video.)

So, seeing all this water go to waste via my garden and presumably, the
local River Great Ouse, I started thinking about how we could improve the
storage of water in these downpours and flash floods. In domestic
gardens, we could increase the number of water-butts dramatically and
arrange that when one is full, others are then filled. In Milton Keynes
we have a number of balancing lakes designed not to store water for local
usage (other than as nature reserves, boating lakes), but primarily to
reduce flooding down stream of Milton Keynes.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that simply letting summer flood
water flow un-impeded into the river system is wasting a huge resource,
but apart from lots of water butts, I can't think of any better way of
storing it. Is there more that could be done by increasing the number of
underground resevoirs?

Any comments? Normally plenty of experts here!

Do a Google on rainwater harvesting. A large tank in the garden. In the
BeNeLux countries these are standard in new homes. They can be easily
retrofitted. Making them standard here would be of no great use, as we
have ample rain in the UK, we can afford to waste water, with only 12 %
having water meters.

All they need is a water grid to pump from water surplus areas to waterless.
The good point is that surplus areas tend to be soft water while the others
hard, so the water would be diluted making it softer.

Fresh water filling rivers is a good thing. It promotes wild life and
maintains the rivers banks.

Malcolm Stewart wrote:

A few days ago we had what I guess was a cloudburst, and I'd estimate that
the rainfall rate maximum was of the order of 6in/hour. (This is based on
the observation that a wheelbarrow in the garden which was 1/2 full before
the storm was full to the top and overflowing after around 10-15 minutes of
torrential downpour, and I've tried to take the shape into account. (At
the same time my gutters were discharging huge quantities of water where
their walls were slightly lower than elsewhere. Very dramatic, caught it
all on video.)

You aught to post this bit on UK.sci.weather to get some expert help to
interpret that fal rate as it is an astonishingly high number but then
there was a flood in Wiltshire at about that date.

The video would help.

So, seeing all this water go to waste via my garden and presumably, the
local River Great Ouse, I started thinking about how we could improve the
storage of water in these downpours and flash floods. In domestic gardens,
we could increase the number of water-butts dramatically and arrange that
when one is full, others are then filled. In Milton Keynes we have a number
of balancing lakes designed not to store water for local usage (other than
as nature reserves, boating lakes), but primarily to reduce flooding down
stream of Milton Keynes.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that simply letting summer flood
water flow un-impeded into the river system is wasting a huge resource, but
apart from lots of water butts, I can't think of any better way of storing
it. Is there more that could be done by increasing the number of
underground resevoirs?

Whatever the situation, the collection was for a very small area.
Spread out over your location it wouldn't be very much -in 10 square
miles,say if the cloudburst was over a 1/2 mile section of it.

Rooftops and concreted paths, roads and pavements catch a great deal of
water that goes straight back into the rivers with no time to drain
into the ground.

Farmers went mad after WW II cutting down trees ripping out hedges,
filling in ditches and planting drain pipes. There was once a great
deal of uncultivated marshland and cultivated water meadow in Britain.
All put to the pough these days; so the pressure is increased on the
land to dry it out either in use, in the drains or both.

Large spread-out connurbations that Britain favours these days rather
than cramming everyone into towers, increases the flow rate. Think what
1/2 an inch of water on your roof measures. There are tables online to
work it out.

Look at the ratio of hard standing vss greenery in your area and
multiply it by the number of towns in a road atlas or something and you
get the picture.

If every home built had a cistern dug that would allow the collection
of all water that fell on it to sink into the land instead of forcing
it through to rivers, the problems would change from floodings to
landslips.

The problem began in Victorian times when rivers and streams were
annexed for sewers. Exacerbated in WW I with the deadly need for
change in farming that brought. Then as the indusrtialisation took
over, urban sprawl started to fill the valleys up from historic ancient
towns that could not cope with the influx of effluent caused.

So now they have to divert rivers and enchain them and build flood
barriers and the like. And all the while underground resevoirs are
emptying. What you are enthusing about is an hi-tech answer and that
means yet more money.

The alternative is buld more resevoirs. But the water companies are in
the hands of asset strippers so you can't see them investing in
resevoirs any time soon can you.

What you can do is: move, build to cope or grin and bear it. In
biblical times householders -if rich enough, did build cisterns and
lined them to store water through their summers. (Apparently such
artifacts still exist in the Sahel where they were used to water stock
and are still usable if repaired.) But life was simpler then and a
public bath was a dip in a local river like everyone else.

We live in an hi-tech democracy, so whater the majority wants -no
matter how unreasonable, the majority might get. So beware what you
wish for. Some damned fool will press for it hard enough to get a vote
for it.

But you know yourself from the history of the area what hi-tech has
done over a number of centuries:
www.geog.cam.ac.uk/.../flobar1/studysites.html

Weatherlawyer wrote:

But you know yourself from the history of the area what hi-tech has
done over a number of centuries:
www.geog.cam.ac.uk/.../flobar1/studysites.html

A uri is not the best place to add an ellipsis. Try
http://www.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/p...tudysites.html

Douglas de Lacey

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Farmers went mad after WW II cutting down trees ripping out hedges,
filling in ditches and planting drain pipes. There was once a great
deal of uncultivated marshland and cultivated water meadow in Britain.
All put to the pough these days; so the pressure is increased on the
land to dry it out either in use, in the drains or both.

Large spread-out connurbations that
Britain favours these days rather
than cramming everyone into towers,

Spread out? Where? Only 7.5% of the land is settled.

increases the flow rate. Think what
1/2 an inch of water on your roof
measures. There are tables online to
work it out.

Look at the ratio of hard standing
vss greenery in your area and
multiply it by the number of towns
in a road atlas or something and you
get the picture.

What picture is that?

If every home built had a cistern dug
that would allow the collection
of all water that fell on it to sink into
the land instead of forcing
it through to rivers, the problems
would change from floodings to
landslips.

The problem began in Victorian times
when rivers and streams were
annexed for sewers. Exacerbated in
WW I with the deadly need for
change in farming that brought. Then
as the indusrtialisation took
over, urban sprawl started to fill the
valleys up from historic ancient
towns

Where is this urban sprawl? I know of none as only 7,5% of the land is
settled and that includes greenspaces, which leaves about 2.5% paved.

that could not cope with the influx of
effluent caused.

So now they have to divert rivers and
enchain them and build flood barriers
and the like.

The impact of people directly on the land is miniscule. Agriculture is the
biggest influence by a million miles.

And all the while underground resevoirs are
emptying. What you are enthusing about
is an hi-tech answer and that
means yet more money.

The alternative is buld more resevoirs.
But the water companies are in
the hands of asset strippers

That they are.

so you can't see them investing in
resevoirs any time soon can you.

Nope. I can see them giving out dividends though.

What you can do is: move, build to cope or grin and bear it. In
biblical times householders -if rich enough, did build cisterns and
lined them to store water through their summers. (Apparently such
artifacts still exist in the Sahel where they were used to water stock
and are still usable if repaired.) But life was simpler then and a
public bath was a dip in a local river like everyone else.

We live in an hi-tech democracy, so whater the majority wants -no
matter how unreasonable, the majority might get. So beware what you
wish for. Some damned fool will press for it hard enough to get a vote
for it.

But you know yourself from the history of the area what hi-tech has
done over a number of centuries:
www.geog.cam.ac.uk/.../flobar1/studysites.html

Malcolm Stewart wrote:
I'm getting a bit fed up with the authorities telling us that rain in summer
is no real help for our struggling(?) water supply industry. (Due to
evaporation, transpiration from trees etc.)
snip
when one is full, others are then filled. In Milton Keynes we have a number
of balancing lakes designed not to store water for local usage (other than
as nature reserves, boating lakes), but primarily to reduce flooding down
stream of Milton Keynes.

Consider your average sized bit of decking/patio.

If this was constructed so that you excavate 0.5m down, and put a membrane
down, with pillars to hold up the decking/patio above, another membrane,
then the patio/decking/...
So you've essentially got a huge sealed plastic bag under the
patio/decking.
A 3m*3m*0.5m tank = 4500l.

Ideally you'd probably like to size this so that it fills completely
with whatever spare water you've got in the wetter months, for use in
the drier.

every home should have a decent sized tank full of rainwater located
under the roof downpipe to be available as a reserve in times of
drought. Especially if you dont live near a river or lake
It could be used in times of necessity by the bucket full for toilets,
kitchen dishes etc.
People should not depend totally on the utilities feeding them with
water gas electricity etc etc.

wrote in message
oups.com...

every home should have a decent sized tank full of rainwater located
under the roof downpipe to be available as a reserve in times of
drought.

No need enough water is in he UK. It needs a water grid, that's all. Water
is NOT a precious resource in the UK. We have so much we can afford waste
some and its doesn't matter.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
Malcolm Stewart wrote:
I'm getting a bit fed up with the authorities telling us that rain in
summer
is no real help for our struggling(?) water supply industry. (Due to
evaporation, transpiration from trees etc.)
snip
when one is full, others are then filled. In Milton Keynes we have a
number
of balancing lakes designed not to store water for local usage (other
than
as nature reserves, boating lakes), but primarily to reduce flooding down
stream of Milton Keynes.

Consider your average sized bit of decking/patio.

If this was constructed so that you excavate 0.5m down, and put a membrane
down, with pillars to hold up the decking/patio above, another membrane,
then the patio/decking/...
So you've essentially got a huge sealed plastic bag under the
patio/decking.
A 3m*3m*0.5m tank = 4500l.

Ideally you'd probably like to size this so that it fills completely
with whatever spare water you've got in the wetter months, for use in
the drier.

Just put a large tank down there, they come in sections, and cover with
decking.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

So you've essentially got a huge sealed plastic bag under the
patio/decking.
A 3m*3m*0.5m tank = 4500l.

Ideally you'd probably like to size this so that it fills completely
with whatever spare water you've got in the wetter months, for use in
the drier.

Just put a large tank down there, they come in sections, and cover with
decking.

Thanks for all the ideas. If only I could get a digger into my rear garden!

Seriously, I've felt for a long time that we need more reservoirs so as to
stop these increasingly hysterical calls to save water; and that during dry
summers, existing reservoirs should be cleared of silt so as to return their
capacity to something like what it was when built.
(The local papers have now carried photos of central Milton Keynes during
the cloudburst which I mentioned, and I wasn't alone in getting a very high
rate of rainfall.)
--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Doctor Drivel wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...


every home should have a decent sized tank full of rainwater located
under the roof downpipe to be available as a reserve in times of
drought.


No need enough water is in he UK. It needs a water grid, that's all.
Water is NOT a precious resource in the UK. We have so much we can
afford waste some and its doesn't matter.



At the risk of capsising yet another potentially useful thread: that's
what they used to say about gas, oil, the rain forests. Oh, and what
about the energy needed for its purification and transport?

Douglas de Lacey

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
(The local papers have now carried photos of central Milton Keynes during
the cloudburst which I mentioned, and I wasn't alone in getting a very
high rate of rainfall.)

Was it flushed away at all?


The staff at the John Lewis store probably thought they were being reverse
flushed. (Storm drains running below the sales floors burst their covers.)

--
M Stewart

Milton Keynes, UK



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On 2006-08-03 19:10:02 +0100, "Malcolm Stewart"
said:

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

So you've essentially got a huge sealed plastic bag under the
patio/decking.
A 3m*3m*0.5m tank = 4500l.

Ideally you'd probably like to size this so that it fills completely
with whatever spare water you've got in the wetter months, for use in
the drier.

Just put a large tank down there, they come in sections, and cover with
decking.

Thanks for all the ideas. If only I could get a digger into my rear garden!

Seriously, I've felt for a long time that we need more reservoirs so as
to stop these increasingly hysterical calls to save water; and that
during dry summers, existing reservoirs should be cleared of silt so as
to return their capacity to something like what it was when built.
(The local papers have now carried photos of central Milton Keynes
during the cloudburst which I mentioned, and I wasn't alone in getting
a very high rate of rainfall.)



Was it flushed away at all?

In message ews.net,
Doctor Drivel writes

wrote in message
roups.com...

every home should have a decent sized tank full of rainwater located
under the roof downpipe to be available as a reserve in times of
drought.

No need enough water is in he UK. It needs a water grid, that's all.
Water is NOT a precious resource in the UK. We have so much we can
afford waste some and its doesn't matter.

"Twas in the rains
we built the drains
From Salford to West Ham ..."

(Dogruff Dan)

--
geoff

Douglas de Lacey wrote:

At the risk of capsising yet another potentially useful thread: that's
what they used to say about gas, oil, the rain forests. Oh, and what
about the energy needed for its purification and transport?

Douglas de Lacey

Some of the transportation cost could be offset by using a series of
pumped storage schemes similar to Dinorwic. Pump it up the hill at
night on E7 and let it continue its journey during the day, generating
hydro power as it goes.

As the man said, there is no shortage of water in the UK, just a lack
of imagination and investment.

MBQ

"Malcolm Stewart" wrote in
message ...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

So you've essentially got a huge sealed plastic bag under the
patio/decking.
A 3m*3m*0.5m tank = 4500l.

Ideally you'd probably like to size this so that it fills completely
with whatever spare water you've got in the wetter months, for use in
the drier.

Just put a large tank down there, they come in sections, and cover with
decking.

Thanks for all the ideas. If only I could get a digger into my rear
garden!

What about the front?

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Thanks for all the ideas. If only I could get a digger into my rear
garden!

What about the front?

That's where I planted some "miniature" conifers some 22 years ago.
One so-called miniature is an abies nordmannniana, and then there's the
taller thin one, still not positively identified, grown from a cone
collected at Plas Newydd.in Anglesey in 1983.
Perhaps after some major tree culling...
--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com