Was chatting to a neighbour the other day, who wanted to replace his old
combi with something a bit more modern. He wanted to know what sort of
thing to fit etc. So I gave him some suggestions, and recommened that he
go for something with a decent power output so as to not get clobbered
with poor hot water performance again (one of the problems with his old
boiler). He wondered if I could fit it for him, but I suggested he got
some quotes from CORGI bods since they would be able to give him all the
required paperwork, and I pointed out that although I could fit my own
boiler, I would not legally be able to fit one for "reward" for him. I
said if he could not get any sensible quotes then perhaps we could work
something out.

Anyway, he went with what looked like a reasonable quote from a local
firm. Alas ignoiring most of the advice and going for a Biasi 28kW
boiler with two part heat exchanger!

Next the fun started:

I get a call from him yesterday, asking if I had a 28mm drill be that he
could borrow since said boiler fitter wanted one and did not have one!
Alas I told him that I did not have one. However since I was a bit busy
at the time I did not go into why he wanted it. Apparently the fitter
said "never mind, I can manage without".

I pondered today that perhaps he wanted to take the new gas pipe
outside, along, and back in again rather than route it through the
house, and that he planed to sleave the 22mm pipe in a larger size when
going through the wall). As it turns out, not exactly!

I got to see the results of his efforts today: first impression; the
boiler is mounted at a slight angle (not far, only a couple of degrees,
but it shows up nicely against the tiles!) Mrs Neighbour was convinced
the fitter was actually drunk when on site.

Next odd thing, what looks like two pressure release blow off pipes
taken outside - the original one left over from the last combi, and a
new one five inches away (at the top that is, more like nine inches at
the bottom - i.e. even more on the **** than the boiler). Aparently the
28mm drill bit was not for anything sophisticated like a sleaved gas
pipe, but was instead desired to take the condensate drain outside.
Having been thwarted in getting a plastic pipe outside, our professional
decides to make up a drain pipe in 15mm copper and install it just like
a blow off pipe - draining onto the path beside the house. Next he
solves the interface problem between said pipe and the flexible 22mm
plastic pipe that leave the boiler by winding many turns of insulating
tape onto the end of the 15mm copper pipe such that it can now be
stuffed into the end of the condensate driain pipe. Eschewing the
secondary water trap with air break as required in the installation
instructions... (and the frost protection, and the use of plastic etc).

Finally our hero leaves, noting that he ought to replace his nice
Danfoss programmable room stat with a mechanical honywell one, since "it
is not compatible" with the boiler and hence he has not connected it up,
and "anyway you don't need one really since you can rely on the TRVs to
control the room temperature". The flue hole he bored right beside (and
a little overlapping) the old flue position - but neglected to fill with
anything ("I will be back tommorow to fill that").

Today the fitters mate turns up. This chap *is* a CORGI, (turns out the
last bod was not). He "inspects" and "signs off" the work - taking the
prcautionary measure of fixing the multiple gas leaks that Mr. Pro left
the day before! Omiting to fill out the more detailed bits of the
benchmark logbook (gas rate etc), and as a parting gesture he then
explains that "you need to fill in this form and send it to building
control along with a cheque for £80 in order to get your building regs
complinace notice"

Nice one|!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for further rebukingwellment.

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:28:49 +0100, Weatherlawyer wrote
(in article om):


wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for further rebukingwellment.


.... and the neighbour taken into a place of care. Clearly he isn't capable
of managing his own affairs.

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

In message , Andy Hall
wrote
On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:28:49 +0100, Weatherlawyer wrote
(in article om):


wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for further rebukingwellment.


... and the neighbour taken into a place of care. Clearly he isn't capable
of managing his own affairs.

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.



Doesn't it just prove that cowboys come with CORGI approval?



--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:20:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:28:49 +0100, Weatherlawyer wrote
(in article om):


wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for further rebukingwellment.


... and the neighbour taken into a place of care. Clearly he isn't capable
of managing his own affairs.

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

Quite so. As soon as the Biasi was the chosen unit I knew which end of
the market was involved.

Anyone working under my supervision for gas work does not get left alone
to leave leaks.

There are not enough pros to go around we all know that. The best use of
my time is supervising others doing the work. The intention is that they
will become registered when they have built up the requisite knowledge
and experience. [1]

The OP's example shows complete failure to adequately supervise the
installation, and I agree the work is scandalous.

I would take issue about the gas rate not being entered on the log book.
This is an area where the regulations have not caught up with the
technology.

Firstly the regs themselves only say (Reg 26(9)d)
"... the operating pressure or the heat input or where necessary both..."
In practice this means the gas rate would only be measured if there was
some cause for concern.

Secondly many modern appliances have fully automatic combustion controls
which make it hard to ensure thee burner is at full rate for the
required time (around 3mins or more). It is far more sensible to get the
combustion analyser on these and measure the CO2% and CO:CO2 ratio, but
the law does require this action.


[1]This latter depends very much on the college/assessment centre.
In practice it seems to be a rather arbitrary amount. It seems to
be roughly a sliding scale where the certified experience reduces with the
candidates age. (Say a 19 year old with NVQ in plumbing needs about 150
days work experience. Whereas a 40 year old with other construction
industry experience needs less+).

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
Gas Fitting Standards Docs he http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFittingStandards

Andy Hall wrote:

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

Another 'Cowboy Supporter'

With this 'you got what you paid for attitude' amongst many posters
ecouraging cowboys it is no wonder that more and more draconian laws
have to be passed to protect the unsuspecting public.

And they are usually the first pratts to go whingeing on about the
number of regulations.

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:20:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:


Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he
paid for.

That's a bit harsh Andy.







Leaky pipework and a wonky installation, maybe, but he never deserved a
Biasi :-|

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 16:32:33 +0100, Bookworm wrote
(in article . com):

Andy Hall wrote:

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

Another 'Cowboy Supporter'

You're missing my point, entirely. I am far from being a supporter of
cowboys.

The point was all about completely ignoring sound advice and going off and
paying the least money, while not really taking the trouble to research the
purchase or ask for further advice.


With this 'you got what you paid for attitude' amongst many posters
ecouraging cowboys it is no wonder that more and more draconian laws
have to be passed to protect the unsuspecting public.

Except that they often don't as in this case.

There are two main aspects of customers that attract cowboys:

- Wanting things on the cheap (although that does not mean that cowboys are
always cheap because of

- Gullibility and lack of research when making a purchase

Legislation can only go a very limited way towards addressing either of these
because the the first often goes outside the scanners of any legislation or
its implementation.

Consumer education only goes as far as people are willing or able to be
educated or have the nouse to figure things out. Unfortunately this
attitude seems to go hand in hand with looking for the cheapest price/service
So it really doesn't matter how much legislation there is - there will always
be a ready market for cowboys among the gullible. They can be seen in
newsagents, petrol stations and supermarkets every Saturday buying Lottery
tickets. Easy marketing for cowboys would be to hand out leaflets to such
people - they've already been sucked into one thing.


Here we have a situation where the individual made all the wrong moves
despite being advised on what would be good and then not recognising a flakey
deal (why was it cheap?) and finally being almost oblivious to the poor
outcome.

Legislation is not going to protect such people from themselves...

John Stumbles wrote in message
news
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:20:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:


Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he
paid for.

That's a bit harsh Andy.


I don't think so, the householder was a complete **** for employing obverse
cowboys.
The only thing PRO about them was the ability to fleece the terminally
stupid of this world.



-

Andy Hall wrote:

You're missing my point, entirely. I am far from being a supporter of
cowboys.

The point was all about completely ignoring sound advice and going off and
paying the least money, while not really taking the trouble to research the
purchase or ask for further advice.


To be fair he did explain his logic for his decision making process.
Since he has a full service contract on the boiler (not BG, but the same
sort of thing), and intends to keep this going for the new boiler, he
figured the boiler reliability was not that important since he can get
someone one site to fix it within 24 hours of it going titsup, and, he
figures it only needs last 15 years overall to see him out!

I expect had he have realised the fitter was going to be quite so bad he
would have gone with another higher quote!

- Wanting things on the cheap (although that does not mean that cowboys are
always cheap because of

Probably not totally the case here, but price was obviously one factor.

Here we have a situation where the individual made all the wrong moves
despite being advised on what would be good and then not recognising a flakey
deal (why was it cheap?) and finally being almost oblivious to the poor
outcome.

I think my comment of "£499 at B&Q" ought to have covered that one when
he was asking about if I havd heard of Biasi ;-)

Legislation is not going to protect such people from themselves...

Very true!

--
Cheers,

John.

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Mark wrote:

I don't think so, the householder was a complete **** for employing obverse
cowboys.

Therin lies one of the difficulties. IIUC it was the (quite plausable)
CORGI who visited to do the original estimate and sales patter. It was
not made clear however that it would be his clueless sidekick actually
doing the work.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:

I don't think so, the householder was a complete **** for employing
obverse
cowboys.

Therin lies one of the difficulties. IIUC it was the (quite plausable)
CORGI who visited to do the original estimate and sales patter.

But was any attempt made to check this firms past work.
A firm being CORGI registered, as you are aware, does not mean you will be
getting a PROfessional craftsman for your money.

It was
not made clear however that it would be his clueless sidekick actually
doing the work.

A drunken fitter (Hence the ****ed boiler ) without the correct tools is
somewhat of a give-away, he should have had his ass kicked out of the door.

im sorry but IMO people who employ firms/tradesmen like this are getting
what they deserve.




-

Mark wrote:

But was any attempt made to check this firms past work.

I doubt it. Although this lot were supposedly recommended by a plumbers
merchant!

A firm being CORGI registered, as you are aware, does not mean you will be
getting a PROfessional craftsman for your money.

No of course not...

A drunken fitter (Hence the ****ed boiler ) without the correct tools is
somewhat of a give-away, he should have had his ass kicked out of the door.

Put yourself in their position though. You only begin to see that things
are going pear shaped some time after the old boiler is history, and you
only get the full picture when the work is done.

im sorry but IMO people who employ firms/tradesmen like this are getting
what they deserve.

Not sure I agree with that...

Still at least the neighbour had the nouse to hold back the final £400.
This ought to give enough leverage to get it sorted one hopes. ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Owain wrote:
Mark wrote:

John Stumbles wrote

Andy Hall wrote:

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he
paid for.

That's a bit harsh Andy.

I don't think so, the householder was a complete **** for employing
obverse
cowboys.
The only thing PRO about them was the ability to fleece the terminally
stupid of this world.


Unfortunately a culture of "the professionals know best, don't try it
yourself" only encourages profiteering by the cowboy tradesperson and
helplessness on the part of the customer.

Owain


All this half baked legislation will end up being counter productive. I
have no intention of taking any notice of any of it, and will sell my
house to someone of like mind.
Only little old ladies believe you "get what you pay for" these days.

Stuart Noble wrote:

All this half baked legislation will end up being counter productive. I
have no intention of taking any notice of any of it,

This attitude will spread as a result of poor legislation. What happens
is that people cease taking seriously any of it, not just the bad bits,
so poor legislation in fact reduces standards across the board. Plus a
rapid increase in non-compliance generates a lot more time wasting
trying to catch people doing as they choose on their own houses, so
even more resources down the drain.


NT

The message
from Stuart Noble contains these words:

All this half baked legislation will end up being counter productive. I
have no intention of taking any notice of any of it, and will sell my
house to someone of like mind.

Trouble is, it's turning us all into scofflaws. I would prefer not to
break the rules, but since the rules are so dumb I will.

The proposed bicycle helmet law will do the same. There's no way the
kids are going to put helmets on to go 50 yards to their friend's house,
and any bloody MP who thinks they're going to is out of his tree. But
it'll be a legal requirement sooner or later and we'll all end up with
even more contempt for the law than we have already.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

In article , Guy King
writes
The message
from Stuart Noble contains these words:

All this half baked legislation will end up being counter productive. I
have no intention of taking any notice of any of it, and will sell my
house to someone of like mind.

Trouble is, it's turning us all into scofflaws. I would prefer not to
break the rules, but since the rules are so dumb I will.

The proposed bicycle helmet law will do the same. There's no way the
kids are going to put helmets on to go 50 yards to their friend's house,
and any bloody MP who thinks they're going to is out of his tree. But
it'll be a legal requirement sooner or later and we'll all end up with
even more contempt for the law than we have already.


Ours do that their on their bikes to school.

Their mother makes them, and they don't argue with her..

And I don't either.. I've learnt not to
--
Tony Sayer

The message
from tony sayer contains these words:

bike helmets
Ours do that their on their bikes to school.

Sure, on a planned trip, but can you see a bunch of small boys on a
summer's day who are hopping on and off their bikes every few minutes
stopping each time to put helmets on?

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

"AJH" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 16:59:33 +0100, Guy King
wrote:

The proposed bicycle helmet law will do the same.

First I've heard of this, it's my favoured form of transport locally
but I am easily tempted back to the car.

AJH

And then you will be forced to wear your seatbelt.

Adam

The message
from Owain contains these words:

Some even more than brain dead than usual MSP wants drug addicts to sign
a "social contract" that they won't procreate.

How they'll enforce that one I don't know - superglue?

Bromide in the methadone.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

John Rumm wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:

But was any attempt made to check this firms past work.

I doubt it. Although this lot were supposedly recommended by a plumbers
merchant!

Im surprised by that, nornaly PM counter staff have a good idea as to who
the cowboys are, they must have asked a dribble clone. Personnel
recommendation should still be the first choice.


im sorry but IMO people who employ firms/tradesmen like this are getting
what they deserve.

Not sure I agree with that...

Still at least the neighbour had the nouse to hold back the final £400.
This ought to give enough leverage to get it sorted one hopes. ;-)

Good for them but it is leaving it a bit late to wise-up, perhaps the Biasi
boiler will confound the odds and be perfectly reliable for the next decade.
Then again... ;(


-

Guy King wrote:
The message
from tony sayer contains these words:

bike helmets

Ours do that their on their bikes to school.


Sure, on a planned trip, but can you see a bunch of small boys on a
summer's day who are hopping on and off their bikes every few minutes
stopping each time to put helmets on?


There's probably a crash helmet law in Greece but I've yet to see anyone
wearing one. Shorts, t shirt, and a couple of toddlers on the handlebars
is the norm

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:28:49 +0100, Weatherlawyer wrote
(in article om):


wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for
further rebukingwellment.


... and the neighbour taken into a place of care.
Clearly he isn't capable
of managing his own affairs.

He went a registered Corgi company. Who else dopes he go to? Is there star
ratings for Corgi men, and he went to a one star?

Having said that, it appears that he
bought on price and got what he paid
for.

What tripe!!!! The man went a Corgi registered firm. He should expect a
good quality job if a Viessmann or a BIASI was fitted. The man was cheated
all the way down the line. Building Control. Corgi are self certifying.

"Bookworm" wrote in message
ups.com...
Andy Hall aka Matt wrote:

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

Another 'Cowboy Supporter'

With this 'you got what you paid for attitude' amongst many posters
ecouraging cowboys it is no wonder that more and more draconian laws
have to be passed to protect the unsuspecting public.

And they are usually the first pratts to go whingeing on about the
number of regulations.

Yep, and Matt is the biggest whinger of them all.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:20:10 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 07:28:49 +0100, Weatherlawyer wrote
(in article om):


wrote:
If= the facts are as you say, fitter #1 should be prosecuted for doing
work requiring a corgi registration, fitter #2 should loose his
registration, and the cost of remedial work by a 3rd party deducted
from the overall bill.

I think this one deserves a name and shame.

Quite and send it to a TV show for further rebukingwellment.


... and the neighbour taken into a place of care. Clearly he isn't
capable
of managing his own affairs.

Having said that, it appears that he bought on price and got what he paid
for.

Quite so. As soon as the Biasi was the
chosen unit I knew which end of
the market was involved.

Does cheap boiler mean a slap-dash cowboy job as well? I where you are
coming from.

Anyone working under my supervision
for gas work does not get left alone
to leave leaks.

So, they were working illegally then.

The OP's example shows complete
failure to adequately supervise the
installation, and I agree the work is scandalous.

That is refreshing.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:48:53 +0000, Stuart Noble wrote:

There's probably a crash helmet law in Greece but I've yet to see anyone
wearing one. Shorts, t shirt, and a couple of toddlers on the handlebars
is the norm

I heard it said that in Greece it is compulsory to wewar a crash helmet
.... if you feel like it :-)


Last time SWMBO and I went, intending to rent a motobike, we took cycle
helmets.