Is it just me that believes that the S stands for separated not safety?

I had a good argument today in a lighting shop with a shop assistant today
whilst helping my Mum buy some new lights for her bathroom. The assistant
said S was for safety and produced fitting documents from lots of lights in
the shop to prove he was correct, I only had the 16th edition (pg25 blue
cover) to show him that it means seperated.

A quick look on Google shows even vent-axia are using the word safety not
seperated on their SELV equipment.

Has the 16th edition gone out of date?

Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:

Is it just me that believes that the S stands for separated not safety?

I had a good argument today in a lighting shop with a shop assistant today
whilst helping my Mum buy some new lights for her bathroom. The assistant
said S was for safety and produced fitting documents from lots of lights in
the shop to prove he was correct, I only had the 16th edition (pg25 blue
cover) to show him that it means seperated.

A quick look on Google shows even vent-axia are using the word safety not
seperated on their SELV equipment.

Has the 16th edition gone out of date?

Page 18 of my on-site guide (brown cover inc ammendments 1 & 2) defines
it as "separated"

--
Cheers,

John.

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SELV is Safety Extra Low Voltage - the shop assistant is correct.

the light or light fitting will be assessed to a prodcut standard for
compliance with relevant European Directives before being CE marked.

Typical Definition:
SELV CIRCUIT: A SECONDARY CIRCUIT which is so designed and protected
that under
normal operating conditions and single fault conditions, its voltages
do not exceed a safe
value.

i.e. secondary circuit seperated from hazardous circuit, such as mains,
by basic insulation and earth or double/reinforced insulation where the
voltage does not exceed 42.4V ac pk or 60V dc.

regards
Charlie

In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:
Is it just me that believes that the S stands for separated not safety?

It has changed. It used to be "Safety", but it is now "Separated".
IIRC, this changed at least 10 years ago, I think when PELV was
introduced.

I had a good argument today in a lighting shop with a shop assistant today
whilst helping my Mum buy some new lights for her bathroom. The assistant
said S was for safety and produced fitting documents from lots of lights in
the shop to prove he was correct, I only had the 16th edition (pg25 blue
cover) to show him that it means seperated.

A quick look on Google shows even vent-axia are using the word safety not
seperated on their SELV equipment.

Has the 16th edition gone out of date?

No -- it's the other way around -- the instructions and the
shop assistant were out of date.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article .com,
charlieB wrote:
i.e. secondary circuit seperated from hazardous circuit, such as mains,
by basic insulation and earth or double/reinforced insulation where the
voltage does not exceed 42.4V ac pk or 60V dc.

The warning symbol on my Fluke DVM comes on at approx 30v DC...

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article .com,
charlieB wrote:
i.e. secondary circuit seperated from hazardous circuit, such as mains,
by basic insulation and earth or double/reinforced insulation where the
voltage does not exceed 42.4V ac pk or 60V dc.

The warning symbol on my Fluke DVM comes on at approx 30v DC...

30VRMSAC = 42.4V peak - which is probably where the confusion comes in.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:
Is it just me that believes that the S stands for separated not safety?

It has changed. It used to be "Safety", but it is now "Separated".
IIRC, this changed at least 10 years ago, I think when PELV was
introduced.

I had a good argument today in a lighting shop with a shop assistant
today
whilst helping my Mum buy some new lights for her bathroom. The assistant
said S was for safety and produced fitting documents from lots of lights
in
the shop to prove he was correct, I only had the 16th edition (pg25 blue
cover) to show him that it means seperated.

A quick look on Google shows even vent-axia are using the word safety not
seperated on their SELV equipment.

Has the 16th edition gone out of date?

No -- it's the other way around -- the instructions and the
shop assistant were out of date.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Has anyone got the red covered 16th edition they could look in please?

Adam

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.. .
Has anyone got the red covered 16th edition they could look in please?

I don't know, but it concurs with Wikipedia:

(The term Safety Extra Low Voltage can still be encountered in some older
publications. The modern IEE/IEC term Separated Extra Low Voltage
clarifies
the distinction between SELV and PELV circuits better.)

Christian.


Thanks for that.

Adam

"Owain" wrote in message
...
ARWadsworth wrote:
Has anyone got the red covered 16th edition they could look in please?

Red covered, 1991 edition coming right at ya. (And it cost £34, I noted
inside the cover. This was also from before it became a BS in 1992.)

Definitions -

Functional extra-low voltage - any Extra-low voltage system in which not
all of the protective measures required for SELV have been applied.

No entry for Protective ELV.

Safety service - An electrical system for electrical equipment provided to
protect or warn persons in the event of a hazard or essential to their
evacuation from a location.

SELV - An Extra-low voltage system which is electrically separated form
Earth and from other systems in such a way that a single fault cannot give
rise to the risk of shock.


You are a star. So back in 1991 it was definately seperated. Thanks.

Section 411-02 simply refers to "Protection by SELV" and "the supply shall
be from one of the safety sources listed in 411-0-02"


And having been referring to this book for 15 years I have only this
minute noticed the erratum on p. 266.

And the erratum on p. 266 says?
I must know.

Adam

In article ,
Owain writes:
ARWadsworth wrote:
Has anyone got the red covered 16th edition they could look in please?

Red covered, 1991 edition coming right at ya. (And it cost £34, I noted
inside the cover. This was also from before it became a BS in 1992.)

Definitions -

Functional extra-low voltage - any Extra-low voltage system in which not
all of the protective measures required for SELV have been applied.

No entry for Protective ELV.

The Green 1992 edition (Amendment 1) includes PELV.
That's the oldest 16th Edition I can still find (into
which I had painstakingly inserted all the Amendment 2
changes).

--
Andrew Gabriel

In my Brown 15th Edition 1981 :-
SELV is not in "Definitions"
It is in the index as Safety ELV
and defined in Part 4 as "Safety ELV sourced by a "safety isolating
transformer , secondary being isolated from earth".
"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
. uk...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:
Is it just me that believes that the S stands for separated not safety?

It has changed. It used to be "Safety", but it is now "Separated".
IIRC, this changed at least 10 years ago, I think when PELV was
introduced.

I had a good argument today in a lighting shop with a shop assistant
today
whilst helping my Mum buy some new lights for her bathroom. The
assistant
said S was for safety and produced fitting documents from lots of
lights
in
the shop to prove he was correct, I only had the 16th edition (pg25
blue
cover) to show him that it means seperated.

A quick look on Google shows even vent-axia are using the word safety
not
seperated on their SELV equipment.

Has the 16th edition gone out of date?

No -- it's the other way around -- the instructions and the
shop assistant were out of date.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Has anyone got the red covered 16th edition they could look in please?

Adam

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The Green 1992 edition (Amendment 1) includes PELV.
That's the oldest 16th Edition I can still find (into
which I had painstakingly inserted all the Amendment 2
changes).

Yep, the change came with Amendment 1 to BS 7671:1992, which was issued
on 15th Dec. 1994. This amendment also introduced PELV and FELV.

The 15th Edition talks of Safety ELV, whereas the first printing of the
16th and the first release of BS 7671 appear to avoid the issue by using
the SELV abbreviation only without giving an expansion. Clearly this
was brewing in CENELEC for a while before it hit the streets...

I am reliably informed that the 17th edition (BS 7671:2008?) is now
being drafted, for release during 2008. This will require increased use
of RCDs - on "all" socket circuits apparently, and it's rumoured that
mains-voltage socket-outlets (other than shaver points) will be allowed
in bathrooms...

--
Andy

I am reliably informed that the 17th edition (BS 7671:2008?) is now
being drafted, for release during 2008. This will require increased use
of RCDs - on "all" socket circuits apparently

Even on dedicated freezer circuits?

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:

I am reliably informed that the 17th edition (BS 7671:2008?) is now
being drafted, for release during 2008. This will require increased use
of RCDs - on "all" socket circuits apparently

Even on dedicated freezer circuits?

Pass - I've told you all I know at the moment.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The Green 1992 edition (Amendment 1) includes PELV.
That's the oldest 16th Edition I can still find (into
which I had painstakingly inserted all the Amendment 2
changes).

Yep, the change came with Amendment 1 to BS 7671:1992, which was issued on
15th Dec. 1994. This amendment also introduced PELV and FELV.

The 15th Edition talks of Safety ELV, whereas the first printing of the
16th and the first release of BS 7671 appear to avoid the issue by using
the SELV abbreviation only without giving an expansion. Clearly this was
brewing in CENELEC for a while before it hit the streets...

I am reliably informed that the 17th edition (BS 7671:2008?) is now being
drafted, for release during 2008. This will require increased use of
RCDs - on "all" socket circuits apparently, and it's rumoured that
mains-voltage socket-outlets (other than shaver points) will be allowed in
bathrooms...

--
Andy

Thanks Andy. Very informative as usual. If you are correct I can already
visualise the posts already that will appear here in 2008.

Adam