Hi
I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

Gordon

I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

They are banned for the disgraceful fire causing murderous tat they are.
They are one of the main reasons that the US has many times the likelihood
of electrical fires and deaths.

Strangely, the other main reason is the dangerously low voltage used in the
states. Higher voltage leads to better fire safety (electrical fires kill
many every year). You would think it would, however, lead to better shock
safety. However, it doesn't, as the lower voltage leads to lower quality
hardware and a poor attitude on the part of users, who think of the voltage
as safe.

Christian.

On 21 Apr 2006 05:54:41 -0700 someone who may be "gordonpuk"
wrote this:-

I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?

Not any more, thank goodness. You may encounter them in conduit
wiring done up to the 1960s. Best removed if encountered.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

gordonpuk wrote:
Hi
I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

Gordon

Wire and nuts are 2 things that should never go together

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:04:16 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

They are banned for the disgraceful fire causing murderous tat they are.
They are one of the main reasons that the US has many times the likelihood
of electrical fires and deaths.

Strangely, the other main reason is the dangerously low voltage used in the
states. Higher voltage leads to better fire safety (electrical fires kill
many every year). You would think it would, however, lead to better shock
safety. However, it doesn't, as the lower voltage leads to lower quality
hardware and a poor attitude on the part of users, who think of the voltage
as safe.

Christian.

What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts. The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 07:19:20 +0100, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:


What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem.

The problem is that the joining faces of the two wires are not in
tight contact and light corrosion increases the joint resistance
which causes slight heating. This in turn loosens the joint more as
it expands and contracts as power is applied and removed which in
turn worsens the corrosion and increases the resistance until such
time as the joint overheats sufficiently to fail or cause a fire.
Aluminium cable is particularly good at failing in this way.


Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts. The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

Not much perhaps - but it is an improvement as the tape excludes
moisture far better than a wire nut does.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts.

The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

If you think that's the popular way, change your friends.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Does that include DIY nuts ??


Wire and nuts are 2 things that should never go together

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson writes:
What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I

There's no way to know you have a good connection.
With a screw terminal, you usually give a good tug on the
wire afterwards. Occasionally it comes out because you
didn't get it under the screw, but that's an easy check.
If you give a good tug on a wirenut, you risk damaging
the connection, even if it had been OK. They rely on the
copper binding to itself when twisted, and completely hide
the creation of the joint and the end result from view.
They don't come close to the quality of connection from
a compressive screw or crimp connection, which is what
the rest of the world moved to over 50 years ago.

I've watched electricians (who have to quite regularly
replace burned out crappy US sockets in computer rooms)
redoing the wirenuts, and one of the wires quite often
pops out when putting the socket back into the box.
Doubtless there are also many occasions where a badly
made joint doesn't completely fall apart before the face
plate is on the box.

have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts.

Other techniques are rather harder to get wrong in the first
place, and much easier to instantly tell you got it wrong.

The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

Well, that's certainly not popular here, but it probably is
an improvement in some respects as you can at least see the
connection before you tape it up. A wirenut is a bit like
doing the same thing with a blindfold on, and only taking
the blindfold off after you taped up. ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts.

The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

If you think that's the popular way, change your friends.


Wire nuts are the spawn of the devil, *especially* in power installations.

Tim

FWIW they used to be called 'Screwits' or 'Midgets' and the larger ones
were called 'Normals'...that was interesting wasn't it?
You can still buy a plastic version today made by Wieland [I think].
Any road-up, on the subject of terminal or 'choc bloc' does anybody know
where it says that you can actually use the stuff? AFAIR 99% of the
blocks have polyethylene insulation which has a lower melting point than
the pvc cable and thus compromises the joint [or so the NICEIC bloke
used to say] and the only acceptable types were porcelain and brass ones
for use in churches [still in the Wiring of Curches guide] and ones made
of Nylon 66 or the high temp versions. But as usual I stand to be
corrected , as happens most of the time!!


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

In article ilgate.org,
"Grumpy owd man" writes:
FWIW they used to be called 'Screwits' or 'Midgets' and the larger ones
were called 'Normals'...that was interesting wasn't it?

'Screwits' was a trade name. "Dogs ********" was another name,
given the way a pair of them would dangle below a knot in the
two cables they joined. I don't think they still have any
generally accepted name now in the UK, given how long ago they
vanished from the scene. "Wire nuts" is an American name which
would not be generally recognised in the UK.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 07:19:20 +0100, Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire?

They have two faults. They're not gas-tight, and they're mechanically
too strong a bond, relative to their contact force.

Gas-tightness is the ability to resist corrosion developing over time.
There's a moderate force applied over a small area, so that the pressure
is high. This keeps the joint sealed and moisture out. It's why IDC
connections have replaced screw connections in telephony (low power,
noise sensitive).

The mechanical problem isn't a problem itself, but it leads to a
situation where you can make an electrically poor connection and not
realise, because a mechanical tug test seems OK.

I have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem.

Then take a look at the US domestic fire statistics. These things are
evil!

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
"Wire nuts" is an American name which
would not be generally recognised in the UK.

That, to me, is a nut with holes drilled through it so it may be wired to
stop it turning. Bit like a split pin system.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

David Hansen wrote:
On 21 Apr 2006 05:54:41 -0700 someone who may be "gordonpuk"
wrote this:-


I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?


Not any more, thank goodness. You may encounter them in conduit
wiring done up to the 1960s. Best removed if encountered.

I found some in my parent's loft (wired when the house was built in
1966). I replaced immediately with a 30A circular junction box.


--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

The message
from "Dave Plowman (News)" contains these words:

The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

If you think that's the popular way, change your friends.

Why? They get along like a house on fire.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

"Edward W. Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:04:16 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

They are banned for the disgraceful fire causing murderous tat they are.
They are one of the main reasons that the US has many times the likelihood
of electrical fires and deaths.

Strangely, the other main reason is the dangerously low voltage used in
the
states. Higher voltage leads to better fire safety (electrical fires kill
many every year). You would think it would, however, lead to better shock
safety. However, it doesn't, as the lower voltage leads to lower quality
hardware and a poor attitude on the part of users, who think of the
voltage
as safe.

Christian.

What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts. The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

Amongst which part of the UK population is "The popular way here to join
wires seems to be to twist wires together and slap a turn or two of
insulation tape round the result"?

--

Brian

In article ,
Brian Sharrock wrote:
Amongst which part of the UK population is "The popular way here to join
wires seems to be to twist wires together and slap a turn or two of
insulation tape round the result"?

Bodgers. The only time this is satisfactory is with low voltage single
core signal wiring like telephone cable.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
What is it, in your opinion, about wire nuts that 'causes' a fire? I
have lived in North America for many years, used wire nuts extensively
and have never seen a problem. Of course, if improperly used or
incorrectly installed problems may result but that is not exclusive to
wire nuts.

The popular way here to join wires seems to be to twist
wires together and slap a turn or two of insulation tape round the
result. Hardly an improvement on wire nuts!

If you think that's the popular way, change your friends.

Darwin will be along presently to resolve the problem ...

--
geoff

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

'Screwits' was a trade name.

And/or "scruits" (ISTR).

--
Andy

In article ,
Andy Wade writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:

'Screwits' was a trade name.

And/or "scruits" (ISTR).

Yes, you and Owain are correct.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On 21 Apr 2006 05:54:41 -0700,it is alleged that "gordonpuk"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Hi
I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

Gordon

Both are fine if used correctly. (IMO)

To those stating wirenuts are illegal... cite please? [not trolling,
genuinely interested why/when/how they were banned]

--
"The most overlooked advantage of owning a computer is that if they foul up
there's no law against whacking them around a bit."
- Eric Porterfield.

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:28:39 GMT, Chip
wrote:

On 21 Apr 2006 05:54:41 -0700,it is alleged that "gordonpuk"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:

Hi
I often see on American programs like this old house, wiring
connections
using 'wire nuts' ( the twist on type not crimp, which I've seen used
in appliances like vacuum cleaner's) they seem useful and easy to use
but have not seen them here are they legal in this country?
If so, why do we prefere terminal blocks?

Gordon

Both are fine if used correctly. (IMO)

To those stating wirenuts are illegal... cite please? [not trolling,
genuinely interested why/when/how they were banned]

I agree with you wire nuts are fine provided they are correctly
installed. There are two types the twist on and the type that are a
drilled brass boss with pinch screw with an external 'plastic cover'
that screws over. The wire nut terminations should be housed in a
steel 'junction' box. The crimp on type of connector is not a wire
nut and is used for circuits such as telephone systems as they are
here.

The critical comment by respondent that wire nuts are not 'airtight' I
find puzzling. Of course they are not and neither are any normal
electrical connections made by other means.

Why people consider wire nuts dangerous and cause fires I can't guess
other than speculate they have no experience of using wire nuts. The
suggestion by one respondent of using wire nuts on high power circuits
gives an indication of lack of understanding of their use.

Most North American homes are wood framed and hence any electrical
fault that is not contained in a suitable enclosure, is likely to
cause a fire whereas in a brick built construction if would be a minor
consequence.

The message
from Edward W. Thompson contains these words:

The critical comment by respondent that wire nuts are not 'airtight' I
find puzzling. Of course they are not and neither are any normal
electrical connections made by other means.

I suspect the important bit is that the pressure at the points of
contact isn't high enough to preclude air getting in between the
conductors which is a well known and serious problem. The conductor gets
warm and oxidises nicely, leading to a higher impedance and so on.

A proper high pressure gas tight connection forces the conductors
together hard enough so that they're deformed and no air can get between
the mating faces. This stops the problem at source.

From the few wirenuts that I've met they couldn't possible achieve the
sort of clamping pressure that a screw terminal in a junction box could
and as a result lack the reliability.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Edward W. Thompson wrote:

I agree with you wire nuts are fine provided they are correctly
installed. There are two types the twist on and the type that are a
drilled brass boss with pinch screw with an external 'plastic cover'
that screws over.

Its the traditional screwless twist connects that are the problem.


The wire nut terminations should be housed in a
steel 'junction' box.

according to who, and why? Theyre routinely not here.


The critical comment by respondent that wire nuts are not 'airtight' I
find puzzling. Of course they are not and neither are any normal
electrical connections made by other means.

a gastight connection is the basic requirement for any safe durable
electrical connection. If not gastight, the touching surfaces oxidise
and connection R goes up, producing heat, sometimes way too much heat.
Wire nuts can not reliably achieve this, our chocolate blocks can.


Why people consider wire nuts dangerous and cause fires I can't guess

Most North American homes are wood framed and hence any electrical
fault that is not contained in a suitable enclosure, is likely to
cause a fire

yes

whereas in a brick built construction if would be a minor
consequence.

not at all.


NT