Need to replace central heating system and finish off double glazing but we
can't afford to do both, so which should be the priority?

Most of the house was DG'd about 10 years ago except for (for various
reasons) 3 windows. These have got - at best - about 4 years life left in
them, but they are draughty and when the wind blows in a certain direction,
the curtains move quite considerably.

We also have a 10-year old Baxi Bermuda 552 back boiler (rest of the
pipework and rads that make up the CH system are 33 years old - original
install when the house was built) that is kettling badly - so much so that
we have to turn up the telly volume to get over it.

We only have one header tank up in the loft and have what I believe is
called a "primatic system" (draining down CH system also takes domestic hot
water) so we can't add any sludge remover or corrosion inhibitor.

Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more economically
viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies. Putting a new
boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and whatever doesn't
seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern rads seem to be more
efficient, I'm thinking we'll go for a whole new system. An added bonus
means that, as the new boiler will be in a different room, we could block up
the 8-inch diameter air vent that the wind literally howls through into our
living room and round our feet - bloody Vladivostok, I'm telling you.

So, what's the priority - CH or DG?

Cheers,

Mogweed.

In article ,
Mogweed. wrote:
Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more
economically viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies.
Putting a new boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and
whatever doesn't seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern
rads seem to be more efficient, I'm thinking we'll go for a whole new
system. An added bonus means that, as the new boiler will be in a
different room, we could block up the 8-inch diameter air vent that the
wind literally howls through into our living room and round our feet -
bloody Vladivostok, I'm telling you.

Don't think there's any difference in actual efficiency between one rad
over another. A low water content one will heat up more quickly - but also
cool more quickly. They might be more efficient space wise, though. But if
the old ones are still sound they can be cleaned, and inhibitor will
prevent further corrosion.

So, what's the priority - CH or DG?

I'd do the CH. The draughty windows could be improved for pennies as a
temporary measure.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mogweed. wrote:
Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more
economically viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies.
Putting a new boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and
whatever doesn't seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern
rads seem to be more efficient, I'm thinking we'll go for a whole new
system. An added bonus means that, as the new boiler will be in a
different room, we could block up the 8-inch diameter air vent that the
wind literally howls through into our living room and round our feet -
bloody Vladivostok, I'm telling you.

Don't think there's any difference in actual efficiency between one rad
over another. A low water content one will heat up more quickly - but also
cool more quickly. They might be more efficient space wise, though. But if
the old ones are still sound they can be cleaned, and inhibitor will
prevent further corrosion.

So, what's the priority - CH or DG?

I'd do the CH. The draughty windows could be improved for pennies as a
temporary measure.

Hmm, good point Dave, thanks.

Mogweed

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:35:12 +0100 someone who may be "Mogweed."
wrote this:-

Need to replace central heating system and finish off double glazing but we
can't afford to do both, so which should be the priority?

Have you insulated the house, the loft and walls in particular?
Either will keep the heat in better than double glazing.

Most of the house was DG'd about 10 years ago except for (for various
reasons) 3 windows. These have got - at best - about 4 years life left in
them, but they are draughty and when the wind blows in a certain direction,
the curtains move quite considerably.

Draughtproofing strips are readily available and so is secondary
glazing. These can reduce draughts a lot for a few years.

We also have a 10-year old Baxi Bermuda 552 back boiler (rest of the
pipework and rads that make up the CH system are 33 years old - original
install when the house was built) that is kettling badly - so much so that
we have to turn up the telly volume to get over it.

Having insulated the walls and loft I would look at a new boiler and
converting the heating system to a more modern form. This would
probably be replacing the cylinder, providing a separate header tank
for the heating system and installing modern controls. Whether I
would replace the existing pipework and radiators would depend on
their condition.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Mogweed. wrote:
Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more
economically viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies.
Putting a new boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and
whatever doesn't seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern
snip
Don't think there's any difference in actual efficiency between one rad
over another. A low water content one will heat up more quickly - but also
cool more quickly. They might be more efficient space wise, though. But if
the old ones are still sound they can be cleaned, and inhibitor will
prevent further corrosion.

With a condensing boiler, larger, or radiators with lower return
temperatures may slightly increase the efficiency of the boiler.

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:35:12 +0100, "Mogweed."
wrote:

Need to replace central heating system and finish off double glazing but we
can't afford to do both, so which should be the priority?

Personally, I'd do the CH now and bodge the windows with tape/draught
excluer etc.

If the heating fails completely you'll get cold! If the windows fail
add more sticky tape!

sponix

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills, don't bother. Draught proofing the opposite - can be very
cheap and very effective.

cheers

Jacob

wrote in message
oups.com...
DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills, don't bother. Draught proofing the opposite - can be very
cheap and very effective.

cheers

Jacob


Thanks to everyone who replied. As it's a resounding victory for the
heating, that's what we'll be doing )

Mogweed.
PS Yes, we have got loft and cavity wall insulation done for those who were
asking - had both done a couple of months ago.

On 26 Mar 2006 10:20:10 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:06:54 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On 26 Mar 2006 10:20:10 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.


It does?


--

..andy

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:35:12 +0100, Mogweed. wrote:

Need to replace central heating system and finish off double glazing but we
can't afford to do both, so which should be the priority?

Most of the house was DG'd about 10 years ago except for (for various
reasons) 3 windows. These have got - at best - about 4 years life left in
them, but they are draughty and when the wind blows in a certain direction,
the curtains move quite considerably.

We also have a 10-year old Baxi Bermuda 552 back boiler (rest of the
pipework and rads that make up the CH system are 33 years old - original
install when the house was built) that is kettling badly - so much so that
we have to turn up the telly volume to get over it.

We only have one header tank up in the loft and have what I believe is
called a "primatic system" (draining down CH system also takes domestic hot
water) so we can't add any sludge remover or corrosion inhibitor.

Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more economically
viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies. Putting a new
boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and whatever doesn't
seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern rads seem to be more
efficient, I'm thinking we'll go for a whole new system. An added bonus
means that, as the new boiler will be in a different room, we could block up
the 8-inch diameter air vent that the wind literally howls through into our
living room and round our feet - bloody Vladivostok, I'm telling you.

So, what's the priority - CH or DG?

CH and thus get rid of the hole in the wall.
See the Boiler Choice FAQ.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:06:54 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On 26 Mar 2006 10:20:10 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.


It does?

Less chill from the window.

Less - maybe no - condensation.

Andy Hall wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
owdman wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.

It does?

Yep. House (re)saleability.

I had steel Crittal windows in when I moved in. Very glad to see the
back of those ...

So will my future house purchasers.

Cheers,

Paul.

On 26 Mar 2006 20:10:00 GMT, Ian Stirling wrote:

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.

It does?

Less chill from the window.

Less - maybe no - condensation.

Less - maybe no - draughts.

Less noise from outside.

I find the OPs request a hard one to call. And those that have mentioned
doing the CH over seriously drafty windows I feel have never lived in a
place where the medium to heavy weight curtains literally do move in the
wind. When it's windy here, the curtains move and if it's below 5C
outside the 38kW boiler struggles to keep the place warm... It can be
below 5C or even 0C without the wind and there is no problem. How cold &
windy the previous week has been is *very* noticable in the amount of oil
we burn. Something like 1/3 more when it is cold & windy.

Chucking out a 10 year old boiler that probably just needs good descale
in the back garden to give it another 10 years life over the huge energy
saving that could be acheived by doing the windows... The vent for the
boiler is a problem but I suspect that could be addressed by baffles to
stop any direct path from the outside world.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 26 Mar 2006 20:10:00 GMT, Ian Stirling wrote:

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.

It does?

Less chill from the window.

Less - maybe no - condensation.

Less - maybe no - draughts.

Less noise from outside.

I find the OPs request a hard one to call. And those that have mentioned
doing the CH over seriously drafty windows I feel have never lived in a
place where the medium to heavy weight curtains literally do move in the
wind. When it's windy here, the curtains move and if it's below 5C

Then again - you can fix that fairly trivially.
Worst case, tape up the windows.
Slightly less bad - masking tape over one half, bead of silicone on the
other face, close, leave a couple of days.

On 26 Mar 2006 20:10:00 GMT, Ian Stirling
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:06:54 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

On 26 Mar 2006 10:20:10 -0800 someone who may be
wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.


It does?

Less chill from the window.

Less - maybe no - condensation.


Curious. I don't have DG but don't notice chill from the windows and
there's never any condensation.


--

..andy

On 26 Mar 2006 12:47:16 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
David Hansen wrote:
owdman wrote this:-

DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills,

It is if bought to save energy. However, it has other advantages.

It does?

Yep. House (re)saleability.

I had steel Crittal windows in when I moved in. Very glad to see the
back of those ...

So will my future house purchasers.


In comparison with those, I can understand.

I'm just not that enthusiastic about plastic windows with thick
frames.

If I did go for DG, I'd want to use hardwood frames.


--

..andy

wrote in message
oups.com...
DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills, don't bother. Draught proofing the opposite - can be very
cheap and very effective.

cheers

Jacob


In my original post I said that the existing windows had maybe four years of
life left in them. This is because the original wooden frames are getting
past it. The rest of the house was DG'd 10 years ago and we've just
repainted the outside of the house that isn't plastic and it's obvious that
this'll be the last time I can do these windows. It needs doing not to save
money but just because they need replacing.

Mogweed.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:35:12 +0100, Mogweed. wrote:

Need to replace central heating system and finish off double glazing but
we
can't afford to do both, so which should be the priority?

Most of the house was DG'd about 10 years ago except for (for various
reasons) 3 windows. These have got - at best - about 4 years life left in
them, but they are draughty and when the wind blows in a certain
direction,
the curtains move quite considerably.

We also have a 10-year old Baxi Bermuda 552 back boiler (rest of the
pipework and rads that make up the CH system are 33 years old - original
install when the house was built) that is kettling badly - so much so
that
we have to turn up the telly volume to get over it.

We only have one header tank up in the loft and have what I believe is
called a "primatic system" (draining down CH system also takes domestic
hot
water) so we can't add any sludge remover or corrosion inhibitor.

Current (and most likely future) gas prices are making it more
economically
viable to replace the boiler now before it finally dies. Putting a new
boiler on to 33-year old stuff that's full of sludge and whatever doesn't
seem to be a good idea though and, given that modern rads seem to be more
efficient, I'm thinking we'll go for a whole new system. An added bonus
means that, as the new boiler will be in a different room, we could block
up
the 8-inch diameter air vent that the wind literally howls through into
our
living room and round our feet - bloody Vladivostok, I'm telling you.

So, what's the priority - CH or DG?

CH and thus get rid of the hole in the wall.
See the Boiler Choice FAQ.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html


We've just renovated a house that we now let out. Part of the renovations
included the installation of a brand new central heating system and we chose
an Alpha CD32C boiler. We're so impressed with how efficient and quiet this
boiler is, and the speed with which the new system reaches the required
temp - this is what made us seriously consider replacing our own system now,
even though the old boiler is still working.

Mogweed

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:01:36 +0000 (GMT) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

And those that have mentioned
doing the CH over seriously drafty windows I feel have never lived in a
place where the medium to heavy weight curtains literally do move in the
wind.

You may feel this, but it would just be a feeling. What people
suggested was ways of making the windows more wind resistant cheaply
and doing the heating.

Nobody seemed to suggest doing nothing about the windows.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I'd do the CH. The draughty windows could be improved for pennies as a
temporary measure.

Dave Plowman
Agreed, you can delay the windows for a few years. I used, as a temporary
measure the stick on plastic film which you contract by using a hair dryer,
it was very sucsessfull in cutting out draughts and reducing heat loss
considerably, it also lasted a couple of years so gave me the chance to save
some pennies towards the new windows.

Donwill

In article ,
"Donwill" popple @diddle .dot writes:
Agreed, you can delay the windows for a few years. I used, as a temporary
measure the stick on plastic film which you contract by using a hair dryer,
it was very sucsessfull in cutting out draughts and reducing heat loss
considerably, it also lasted a couple of years so gave me the chance to save
some pennies towards the new windows.

I have a piece of that film which has been up for 20 years now, and is
still perfect. I did a very thorough job of cleaning the window behind
and the paintwork around the frame which it sticks on, and that seems
to have paid off. It's across the window over the front door. I have
been careful to avoid damaging it when plastering and painting nearby,
and its height means it's less susceptabe to damage anyway.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 08:09:09 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

And those that have mentioned doing the CH over seriously drafty
windows I feel have never lived in a place where the medium to heavy
weight curtains literally do move in the wind.

You may feel this, but it would just be a feeling.

Fairy Nuff.

What people suggested was ways of making the windows more wind
resistant cheaply and doing the heating.

You think our windows don't have secondary glazing, draft proofing strips
on the outer vents and the really bad ones the secondary glazing taped
up? Without those "features" there would be no point in putting the
heating on at all...

IMHO secondary glazing is a waste of money. I've had two places with it
and the only consistent thing about it is that it makes outer timber
frames rot. This down to the condensation you get in the gap, it's
impossible to make that air tight.

As the OPs place stands at the moment the boiler works and is just a bit
noisey, probably cured with a good descale. But the windows don't work
(as in keeping the wind out) and are causing a large energy loss. In our
case I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 1000l/year (about £350) oil
saving by getting the windows done...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Mogweed. wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
DG is waste of money - about the least cost effective way of reducing
fuel bills, don't bother. Draught proofing the opposite - can be very
cheap and very effective.

cheers

Jacob


In my original post I said that the existing windows had maybe four years of
life left in them. This is because the original wooden frames are getting
past it. The rest of the house was DG'd 10 years ago and we've just
repainted the outside of the house that isn't plastic and it's obvious that
this'll be the last time I can do these windows. It needs doing not to save
money but just because they need replacing.

Mogweed.

I dont know how bad they are, and whether theres the possible option of
gouging out the rot and adding car body filler. Or the option of
replacing only the rotten bits, since often its only the bottom rail
and bottom ends of sides that go.

Fitting dg when windows dont need replacing is a waste of money, but if
they really do its a lot less clear. While they save on heating, they
also fail and need replacing, thus wasting time energy and money. Then
again, you've got mostly dg already.


NT