What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler (ignoring
the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of the
price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement will
involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and removal of
redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's trying
to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

In message , Tim Downie
writes
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler (ignoring
the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of the
price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement will
involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and removal of
redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's trying
to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

Last one I had replaced was in a ground floor kitchen with no bricking
up.

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost around
£800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

--
Richard Faulkner

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , Tim Downie
writes
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler
(ignoring the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of
the price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement
will involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and
removal of redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's
trying to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

Last one I had replaced was in a ground floor kitchen with no bricking
up.

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?

Tim

Tim Downie wrote:
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler (ignoring
the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of the
price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement will
involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and removal of
redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's trying
to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim



Half a day's work for 2 blokes. £350 is the most I've paid

"Tim Downie" wrote in message
...
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler
(ignoring the capital cost of the boiler)?

--- clip

Tim

I had an old cast iron boiler replaced with a new Gloworm 24hxi
condensing boiler last October. This is in Hampshire - not sure
if there are regional differences..

The guys were very competent. Spent a lot of time flushing the
system... added a couple of bits not in the original quote for me...
All in all a very good job. There were two experienced guys
(ex British Gas) plus an apprentice... Total cost was just under
£1600 inc vat as they also added a couple of rad thermostats.
I think I could have purchased the bits for under £800 so
manpower costs were about £800+ they were on site for 9 hours -
so for two and a half men - hourly rate comes out to
about £35 / hour.

I had to dispose of the old boiler.

I had cheaper quotes but these guys gave me a warm feeling
from the start. Very professional. He took copious notes at,
the initial meeting and provided a quote when he said he would.

May be not be the same job as yourself but might help.

Roy

In message , Tim Downie
writes
Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , Tim Downie
writes
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler
(ignoring the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of
the price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement
will involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and
removal of redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's
trying to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

Last one I had replaced was in a ground floor kitchen with no bricking
up.

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?


Sounds like it. Depends on the cost of the boiler - Fitting looks like
anything between £400 and £800. Perhaps yours may be on the higher side
due to the loft involvement.

--
Richard Faulkner

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 13:36:08 -0000, "Tim Downie"
wrote:

What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler (ignoring
the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of the
price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement will
involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and removal of
redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's trying
to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

Had a Worcester 28CDi fitted three weeks ago. Supply and fit, in a new
position that required core drill for the flue, new run of gas pipe
along the outside wall and the dhw and flow/returns put through a wall
to the boiler. £1400. Two men, about 6 hours work.

The message
from Richard Faulkner contains these words:

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?


Sounds like it. Depends on the cost of the boiler - Fitting looks like
anything between £400 and £800. Perhaps yours may be on the higher side
due to the loft involvement.

Plumbers have to live but some at least seem to live quite well.

If we assume the plumbers overheads (including VAT) are covered by his
markup on goods supplied we are still left with the bigger problem of
working out how productive the average plumber is but is a total of 135
fully productive days (3 days a week for 45 weeks a year) totally
unreasonable? One that basis £400 for one days work nets the plumber
£54000 p/a with other periods/manning levels pro rata.

£54000 p/a might be small change to Andy Hall but I suspect that for
most of us that is one of the reasons why such tradesmen don't get a
look-in in our houses if we can possible avoid it.

--
Roger Chapman

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:42:23 +0000, Roger wrote:

The message
from Richard Faulkner contains these words:

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?


Sounds like it. Depends on the cost of the boiler - Fitting looks like
anything between £400 and £800. Perhaps yours may be on the higher side
due to the loft involvement.

Plumbers have to live but some at least seem to live quite well.

If we assume the plumbers overheads (including VAT) are covered by his
markup on goods supplied we are still left with the bigger problem of
working out how productive the average plumber is but is a total of 135
fully productive days (3 days a week for 45 weeks a year) totally
unreasonable? One that basis £400 for one days work nets the plumber
£54000 p/a with other periods/manning levels pro rata.

£54000 p/a might be small change to Andy Hall but I suspect that for
most of us that is one of the reasons why such tradesmen don't get a
look-in in our houses if we can possible avoid it.

Quite so. I'd be completely unwilling to pay anyone what others pay me...

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 14:08:09 -0000, "Tim Downie"
wrote:

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , Tim Downie
writes
What's a reasonable charge for replacing a 24KW condensing boiler
(ignoring the capital cost of the boiler)?

In the process of comparing quotes and wondering how much (on top of
the price of the boiler) is a reasonble charge.

It a loft fitted boiler but with pretty good access. Replacement
will involve a small amount of bricking up of existing flue hole and
removal of redundant header tank & pump.

Just the roughest of ball-park figures would be nice so I know who's
trying to fleece me and who's not. ;-)

Tim

Last one I had replaced was in a ground floor kitchen with no bricking
up.

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?

Tim

You haven't said whether the existing boiler is also in the loft, or
whether the bricking up is for a location somewhere else. If it's a
new installation in the loft, then gas has to be provisioned and a
condensate drain arranged.

Another possible aspect is if the fitter is VAT registered and
therefore is charging you VAT on the labour content as well as passing
it on for the boiler.

If the boiler is costing around £950 inc VAT (Discounted Heating
price) then there's £1300 in labour and margin on the boiler. If that
includes VAT then a comparable price for a non-registered fitter would
be around £2k.

Even taking these into account, this does strike me as a bit on the
high side.

However, pricing depends on area of the country, competition and the
extent to which the work is wanted.

A fitter with a good reputation in a more affluent area may well be
able to command a higher price than one with less work.

Really the thing to do is to obtain a few apples for apples quotes and
decide on your buying criteria - i.e. whether you just want the
cheapest price or whether you feel more confident of the quality of
the work of someone charging more and are willing to pay for that.






--

..andy

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:42:23 GMT, Roger
wrote:

The message
from Richard Faulkner contains these words:

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?


Sounds like it. Depends on the cost of the boiler - Fitting looks like
anything between £400 and £800. Perhaps yours may be on the higher side
due to the loft involvement.

Plumbers have to live but some at least seem to live quite well.

If we assume the plumbers overheads (including VAT) are covered by his
markup on goods supplied we are still left with the bigger problem of
working out how productive the average plumber is but is a total of 135
fully productive days (3 days a week for 45 weeks a year) totally
unreasonable? One that basis £400 for one days work nets the plumber
£54000 p/a with other periods/manning levels pro rata.

£54000 p/a might be small change to Andy Hall but I suspect that for
most of us that is one of the reasons why such tradesmen don't get a
look-in in our houses if we can possible avoid it.

I wouldn't regard this kind of figure as small change for anybody,
Roger. OTOH, I don't think that it's unreasonable for a fitter to
earn this kind of money if he is able to do so.

There are other factors to consider as well. For example, some
experience long term health issues with knees and back etc. How is
that addressed? Either money can be put away on the basis of retiring
from this level of earnings relatively early (perhaps 55-60) or income
replacement insurance can be arranged. However, that is very
expensive if covering a near equivalent level of earnings.

I don't begrudge anybody making whatever they are able to do legally,
and I don't think that comparisons are that useful either. For
example, I make more than my bank manager and probably less than a top
barrister, but I don't have angst about that and neither does the bank
manager.

Ultimately, earnings are determined by a combination of what the
customer (or employer) is willing to pay and the competitive
environment as well as the level and skill of work of the individual.
If somebody is willing to risk more by running their own business,
then I think that they are entitled to some reward for that as well.

It would be a lot better if we got over the British disease of
thinking that being successful is "not quite nice", and instead looked
at how we can improve our own lot rather than hoping that those of
others become less.

I wouldn't pay a fitter to replace a boiler in my house either because
I quite like doing plumbing work and can spend time to achieve exactly
what I want. For me it's a time/cost/quality decision. Even if the
fitter only wanted to charge £200 for a day's work, I would still do
the job myself. However, if he feels that his available market is
willing to pay him £400 then I see no reason for him not to go for
that.




--

..andy

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 20:00:11 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:42:23 +0000, Roger wrote:



£54000 p/a might be small change to Andy Hall but I suspect that for
most of us that is one of the reasons why such tradesmen don't get a
look-in in our houses if we can possible avoid it.

Quite so. I'd be completely unwilling to pay anyone what others pay me...

Nice answer :-)

(Says everything and nothing at the same time).


--

..andy


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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The message
from Owain contains these words:

Plumbers have to live but some at least seem to live quite well.
If we assume the plumbers overheads (including VAT) are covered by his
markup on goods supplied

Which is very likely to be an incorrect assumption, even ignoring VAT.

YMMV. VAT would be the major item. Even overheads of £8000 p/a only
amount to £60 per day when spread over 135 days.

Taking the starting point as one one days work fitting a £800 boiler for
£1200. VAT would be approx. £180. Add overheads of £60 to give £240.
£240 is only 30% of £800 which is not an impossibly high margin. £60
(overheads alone) is only 7.5%.

we are still left with the bigger problem of
working out how productive the average plumber is but is a total of 135
fully productive days (3 days a week for 45 weeks a year) totally
unreasonable? One that basis £400 for one days work nets the plumber
£54000 p/a with other periods/manning levels pro rata.

If that is the invoice value, the govt will take VAT at 17.5%, so down
to £46,000. Tax and NI will probably be about a third of the remaining,
so down to £30k. That's not a particularly high salary for a person in
their late 30s or early 40s, particularly if, as in many cases, it
includes a notional wage paid to Mrs Plumber for answering the phone and
doing the books. In fact, if they have children, they'd be well within
the limits for Tax Credits.

A bit confusing but I had intended the net above to mean net (one
simplification too far) but no way would a quoted salary be net of Tax
and NIC.

Wifes wages - one of the many reasons why the typical self employed can
enjoy the same standard of living as their PAYE counterparts on half the
(declared) income. :-) Presumably even harder to justify these days when
he carries a mobile and pointless if the wife has a part time job of any
consequence.

Not sure what you mean by national wage. Unless our mythical plumber is
subject to higher rate tax it makes no sense to pay his wife more than
her personal tax allowance even if she doesn't have another job and even
if our plumber is a higher rate tax payer it is anything but a foregone
conclusion that the trouble and expense of deducting and accounting for
tax and NIC is worth the effort.

--
Roger Chapman

Owain wrote:

If that is the invoice value, the govt will take VAT at 17.5%, so down
to £46,000. Tax and NI will probably be about a third of the remaining,
so down to £30k. That's not a particularly high salary for a person in
their late 30s or early 40s, particularly if, as in many cases, it
includes a notional wage paid to Mrs Plumber for answering the phone and
doing the books. In fact, if they have children, they'd be well within
the limits for Tax Credits.

But if you have taken off the tax+NI then you are looking at after tax
earnings, so 30k is not too bad.

(Not that I disagree that taking the expenses of running a business into
account, the plumber's earnings will not be nearly as high as imagined.)


--
David Clark
http://www.publishing.ucl.ac.uk
$replyto = 'an.rnser.is.reqird'

Andy Hall wrote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006 17:42:23 GMT, Roger
wrote:


The message

from Richard Faulkner contains these words:

Worcester Junior 24i I think. Total cost £1200 + VAT, Boiler cost
around £800 or so inc. VAT.

Very ballpark!

So at £2,300 (inc boiler) one of them's just having a laff?


Sounds like it. Depends on the cost of the boiler - Fitting looks like
anything between £400 and £800. Perhaps yours may be on the higher side
due to the loft involvement.

Plumbers have to live but some at least seem to live quite well.

If we assume the plumbers overheads (including VAT) are covered by his
markup on goods supplied we are still left with the bigger problem of
working out how productive the average plumber is but is a total of 135
fully productive days (3 days a week for 45 weeks a year) totally
unreasonable? One that basis £400 for one days work nets the plumber
£54000 p/a with other periods/manning levels pro rata.

£54000 p/a might be small change to Andy Hall but I suspect that for
most of us that is one of the reasons why such tradesmen don't get a
look-in in our houses if we can possible avoid it.


I wouldn't regard this kind of figure as small change for anybody,
Roger. OTOH, I don't think that it's unreasonable for a fitter to
earn this kind of money if he is able to do so.

There are other factors to consider as well. For example, some
experience long term health issues with knees and back etc. How is
that addressed? Either money can be put away on the basis of retiring
from this level of earnings relatively early (perhaps 55-60) or income
replacement insurance can be arranged. However, that is very
expensive if covering a near equivalent level of earnings.

I don't begrudge anybody making whatever they are able to do legally,
and I don't think that comparisons are that useful either. For
example, I make more than my bank manager and probably less than a top
barrister, but I don't have angst about that and neither does the bank
manager.

Ultimately, earnings are determined by a combination of what the
customer (or employer) is willing to pay and the competitive
environment as well as the level and skill of work of the individual.
If somebody is willing to risk more by running their own business,
then I think that they are entitled to some reward for that as well.

It would be a lot better if we got over the British disease of
thinking that being successful is "not quite nice", and instead looked
at how we can improve our own lot rather than hoping that those of
others become less.

I wouldn't pay a fitter to replace a boiler in my house either because
I quite like doing plumbing work and can spend time to achieve exactly
what I want. For me it's a time/cost/quality decision. Even if the
fitter only wanted to charge £200 for a day's work, I would still do
the job myself. However, if he feels that his available market is
willing to pay him £400 then I see no reason for him not to go for
that.




The free market works very well in a free market. I can choose a
hairdresser, or not have my hair cut at all. Being told by the
authorities that I must have a corgi fitter, but that he can charge
anything he likes sound more like being over a barrel to me (but this is
invariably what free marketeers mean by "free")

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 13:10:26 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:




The free market works very well in a free market. I can choose a
hairdresser, or not have my hair cut at all. Being told by the
authorities that I must have a corgi fitter, but that he can charge
anything he likes sound more like being over a barrel to me (but this is
invariably what free marketeers mean by "free")


I don't disagree, but then you can choose between CORGI fitters, so it
becomes more like the law of supply and demand.



But if the government legislates, then the govenment has to oversee the
compliance to some degree. I don't expect to pay over the odds for an
MOT certificate just because demand happens to be high at the time.

Actually, the law of supply and demand works rather well with Corgis
when it's not an emergency. You just explain that you're not a little
old lady and that there are 359 other gas fitters in Yellow Pages.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 14:24:13 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 13:10:26 GMT, Stuart Noble
wrote:




The free market works very well in a free market. I can choose a
hairdresser, or not have my hair cut at all. Being told by the
authorities that I must have a corgi fitter, but that he can charge
anything he likes sound more like being over a barrel to me (but this is
invariably what free marketeers mean by "free")


I don't disagree, but then you can choose between CORGI fitters, so it
becomes more like the law of supply and demand.



But if the government legislates, then the govenment has to oversee the
compliance to some degree.

I am sure that they would claim that they do.

I don't expect to pay over the odds for an
MOT certificate just because demand happens to be high at the time.

In effect it happens though. There is a statutory maximum fee but
certainly price/availability competition below that.



Actually, the law of supply and demand works rather well with Corgis
when it's not an emergency. You just explain that you're not a little
old lady and that there are 359 other gas fitters in Yellow Pages.

--

..andy