wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world. Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.

Dave

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:05:38 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

This sounds to be more of a combination of wanting to retain profits
in Denmark and the high direct and indirect costs of employment there.




Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world.

That's how it works in part of the consumer market.


Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.


Service, support and spares from B&Q and Machine Mart?

Even £200 isn't a throw away price for a pressure washer, is it?

The fault is with the product manager in my view. He didn't think
about putting some differentiation in the product, or didn't think
about all the markets - i.e. does the brand carry more value in
Denmark than the UK?

This is classic private label procurement stupidity.

Clearly the colour didn't matter.

The right solution would have been not to have attempted to compete in
that price range in the market with an obviously identical product if
the total product value can't be communicated to the customer. That
can be done by somebody working for the branded manufacturer as long
as they have direct customer contact or customers able to discern
their value proposition. It's unlikely to work through a volume
distribution channel. That's a marketing game, not a sales one.

The mistake was trying to compete in the wrong part of the market. If
you have a high cost base, generally the choices are to reposition and
reduce the cost base to compete with the dog eat dog environment of
the volume retailers or to make a specific decision not to compete in
that part of the market and go for higher margin business if it exists
even if that means moving into new differentiated product lines.


In the tools marketplace, the branded manufacturers have a variety of
strategies to compete. Service offering is one, build quality,
innovation and design are others. Lifetime pricing is another. For
example, the very good deals around on older Makita drills at present.
That's before one gets to offshore manufacturing with suitable quality
controls.

The mid market branded professional tool manufacturers (e.g. Bosch,
Makita, DeWalt) have pretty comprehensive marketing strategies and
appear to execute them well. They only compete on price in fairly
targetted ways and channels.

The upper end of the market (e.g. Festool, Lamello, etc) are able to
command good prices through product quality, innovation and
engineering excellence on top of these things. You don't see deep
discounts on them. They've identified their customer base and
channels and address them correctly. They don't have the volumes of
B&Q etc. but do have a more sustainable business strategy and will
likely be around long after Kingfisher has dumped B&Q and Techtronics
finds another volume outlet for its stuff.

Product managers have a lot to answer for.




--

..andy

david lang wrote:
wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world. Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.

Dave

I have noticed Makita and DeWalt SDS drills being sold for under £100
and at prices only 5 years ago cheap DIY SDS drills were being sold at.


I have no brand loyalty and buy as needed, which is usually a distress
purchase. I now have no reservation in buying B&Q own brands. They look
and feel well made. I like the idea of the one battery type for all
tools idea. Riyobi and DeWalt push this. I find it irritating having
different chargers on the go. I may go this way with Ryobi and build
the tools up as I go along, as many here speak well of them abd being
well priced with the products to match. The Riyobi Impact driver is
well priced and I may get one soon to see how they go. That should save
me some time. They are small enough to act as an angle drill, as I
regularly have to drill joists for plastic pipe and cables.

Andy Hall wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:05:38 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

This sounds to be more of a combination of wanting to retain profits
in Denmark and the high direct and indirect costs of employment there.




Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they geta
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) soldfor
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world.

That's how it works in part of the consumer market.


Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.


Service, support and spares from B&Q and Machine Mart?

Even £200 isn't a throw away price for a pressure washer, is it?

The fault is with the product manager in my view. He didn't think
about putting some differentiation in the product, or didn't think
about all the markets - i.e. does the brand carry more value in
Denmark than the UK?

This is classic private label procurement stupidity.

Clearly the colour didn't matter.

The right solution would have been not to have attempted to compete in
that price range in the market with an obviously identical product if
the total product value can't be communicated to the customer. That
can be done by somebody working for the branded manufacturer as long
as they have direct customer contact or customers able to discern
their value proposition. It's unlikely to work through a volume
distribution channel. That's a marketing game, not a sales one.

The mistake was trying to compete in the wrong part of the market. If
you have a high cost base, generally the choices are to reposition and
reduce the cost base to compete with the dog eat dog environment of
the volume retailers or to make a specific decision not to compete in
that part of the market and go for higher margin business if it exists
even if that means moving into new differentiated product lines.


In the tools marketplace, the branded manufacturers have a variety of
strategies to compete. Service offering is one, build quality,
innovation and design are others. Lifetime pricing is another. For
example, the very good deals around on older Makita drills at present.
That's before one gets to offshore manufacturing with suitable quality
controls.

The mid market branded professional tool manufacturers (e.g. Bosch,
Makita, DeWalt) have pretty comprehensive marketing strategies and
appear to execute them well. They only compete on price in fairly
targetted ways and channels.

The upper end of the market (e.g. Festool, Lamello, etc) are able to
command good prices through product quality, innovation and
engineering excellence on top of these things. You don't see deep
discounts on them. They've identified their customer base and
channels and address them correctly. They don't have the volumes of
B&Q etc. but do have a more sustainable business strategy and will
likely be around long after Kingfisher has dumped B&Q and Techtronics
finds another volume outlet for its stuff.

Product managers have a lot to answer for.

Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices
down, and most likely quality up. Cutting out middle men will also
bring prices down as well. Price is not a true indicator. I know, I buy
lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the
items I buy and that included tools. After reading this forum I popped
into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as
equal to many costsing 10 times as much.

It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying.
If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

david lang wrote:
wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world. Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.

Dave

I know it can be that way, but is it always? Or is there in reality a
lot of same case plasticine geared tools around? I thought there were,
but am open to correction if that isnt done.

Thinking about the ryobi/pppro choice, they'll cost me the same in the
end after transport.


NT

david lang wrote:
wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

Lets look at the reality.

I'm a sales rep for a Danish high pressure cleaner manufacturer (at least
until next week). They have been around since 1962.

You can't make DIY pressure washers in Denmark, labour costs are simply too
high, so we bought in a badged range from FIAP in Italy. FIAP are highly
automated, very efficient and sell all over the world. We tested the kit,
based on 40 odd years in the game and by DIY standards it was pretty good.

So, Danish product manager negotiates a deal for container loads of machines
and multiplies delivered cost by 2.8 to allow for profit margin, marketing,
finance cost etc.

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

That's how it works in the real world. Lower price no longer necessarily
means lower quality. It means more efficient distribution channels, lower
margins and mass marketing.

Dave

I know it can be that way, but is it always? Or is there in reality a
lot of same case plasticine geared tools around? I thought there were,
but am open to correction if that isnt done.

Thinking about the ryobi/pppro choice, they'll cost me the same in the
end after transport. And I never want to be seen with a pppro!


NT

On 24 Jan 2006 17:10:47 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:


Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices
down, and most likely quality up.

I have no idea. Look at their web site.

Have you actually owned, used or even looked at anything they make?


Cutting out middle men will also
bring prices down as well.

That's pretty obvious but depends on what the so called "middle men"
do. If it's simply distribution with no added value, then certainly.
If it's a support and service organisation, that is a different
matter.


Price is not a true indicator.


Price is *an* indicator, but doesn't replace researching the purchase
properly.


I know, I buy
lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the
items I buy and that included tools.

Well yes. A sack of cement is, well, a sack of cement.



After reading this forum I popped
into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as
equal to many costsing 10 times as much.


It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying.
If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl
hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low)
price.

One has to look at the whole product offering and then to decide
whether that is worth the price being asked.




--

..andy

On 24 Jan 2006 16:57:58 -0800, wrote:




I have noticed Makita and DeWalt SDS drills being sold for under £100
and at prices only 5 years ago cheap DIY SDS drills were being sold at.

That's because volumes have increased all round.



I have no brand loyalty and buy as needed, which is usually a distress
purchase.

That's a bad situation in which to make any purchase, especially of a
tool. It's very important to research properly to get the best value
for money.

I now have no reservation in buying B&Q own brands. They look
and feel well made.

I've looked at and tried some of their products as well as the Ryobi
ones, in quick succession to those from Makita (e.g. drills), DeWalt
(e.g. routers) and in comparison, the TTI products are not well made.
TTI's Milwaukee product is the best from their stable.

Gearboxes and clutch and speed and torque control on Ryobi drills feel
a bit better than the entry level products, but are not as good as
Makita, and nowhere near as good as Festool. The TTI routers are
very poor in terms of plunge mechanism and motor performance. Several
people here have returned them.


I like the idea of the one battery type for all
tools idea. Riyobi and DeWalt push this.

Most manufacturers offer that within their ranges. More important is
to look into the battery quality and longevity and whether one can buy
tools without batteries at all. That can be a significant cost
saving.

I find it irritating having
different chargers on the go. I may go this way with Ryobi and build
the tools up as I go along, as many here speak well of them abd being
well priced with the products to match.

Ryobi has "reasonable" products for their price point. In tool
reviews from numerous sources (worldwide), their products, where
reviewed, typically come third or fourth out of ten. Seldom first,
and seldom bottom. In reviews such as those in Fine
Woodworking,Ryobi tends to score slightly higher on value for money
than on best product.

I was just looking through FWW's annual reviews on various hand power
tools.

TTI's Ryobi brand came near the bottom on biscuit jointers. Their
Milwaukee product did well in angle grinders and circular saws, but
Ridgid (TTI brand sold through Home Depot, similar to PPpro offerings)
was at the bottom.
In 14.4v cordless drills, Milwaukee did well, alongside Makita and
Bosch. Ryobi was close to the bottom.

In SCMS, Bosch, DeWalt and Makita were the leaders, and Ridgid were
markedly behind at the bottom.

In belt sanders, Porter Cable, Bosch and Makita came first in best
overall products with Ryobi 7th after several others. However, Ryobi
did come out best on value for money.

In random orbit sanders, Festool came out as best overall with Metabo
second. TTI's Ridgid products came out best value.


This really illustrates that no manufacturer has a best of breed or a
best of value in every tool category. It also illustrates that
volume manufacturing houses such as TTI have different product quality
levels for their different brands. Milwaukee consistently did better
than Ryobi, for example.




--

..andy

david lang wrote:
wrote: in a recent thread "I expect the pppro is likely
to be an aggressively cost cut version with plasticine gears and coin cells,
so I'm more tempted by the Ryobi".

We sell product in UK, but because we have to offer a 40% discount to
resellers and cover our costs, we also mark up by multiplying by 2.8.

We now have a product that is shipped from Italy, to Denmark, to UK.
Everybody wants a mark up, so a machine that leaves the Italian factory at a
price of £50 has a UK list price of around £390.

Enter stage left - B&Q and Machine Mart. They negotiate with FIAP, not for
container loads, but for huge volumes - really huge volumes, so they get a
better price. The shipping costs are less for larger volumes and they go
straight from Italy to UK. Fewer mark ups, less costs.

The upshot? Exactly the same kit (different colour, but identical) sold for
half the price. Exactly the same kit. Exactly.

Not a cheaper spec - changing that would actually cost FIAP money through
loss of volume. Simply bulk purchase, lower shipping costs, fewer mark ups,
lower margins.

"Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that for Bosch, Makita, and all
these quality manufacturers, does it, because.... oh, arr, erm....
oh, *BECAUSE!*"

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:26:47 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:


"Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that for Bosch..

FWIW, Bosch are made by Skil (Or vice versa?)

sponix

sPoNiX wrote:

FWIW, Bosch are made by Skil (Or vice versa?)


Bosch bought Skil in the mid 1990s. Nothing wrong with Skil stuff.


--
Grunff

wrote:

I know it can be that way, but is it always? Or is there in reality a
lot of same case plasticine geared tools around? I thought there were,
but am open to correction if that isnt done.

There are tons of rebadged products about. That does not mean that all
rebadged products are neccasarily bad even if it is a marketing strategy
that is often employed in the "pile em high sell em low" end of the market.

The basic quality of the starting product dictates the final item
quality (although the "value" of the whole package can obviously be
changed by what is added later in the chain). The cost base of the
organisation doing the rebadging and where it chooses to position the
product will dictate the final price - as David said the ex works
purchase cost is only a small fraction of the consumer price.

David's description of the HPC did say "by DIY standards it was pretty
good"... I am sure he could have also sourced the same unit as gets a
power devil badge (and various others) and retails at 20 quid in the
shops - I expect the description would be less favourable!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Chris Bacon wrote:

"Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that for Bosch, Makita, and all
these quality manufacturers, does it, because

It works exactly like that for them when they choose to offer a badged
product. What differentiates them from (say) NuTool is the basic quality
of raw product they are prepared accept and put their "brand" on, and
also what value they choose to add as an organisation between delivery
of the product from manufacturing and to the end user.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:52:00 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Chris Bacon wrote:

"Ah, yes, but it doesn't work like that for Bosch, Makita, and all
these quality manufacturers, does it, because

It works exactly like that for them when they choose to offer a badged
product. What differentiates them from (say) NuTool is the basic quality
of raw product they are prepared accept and put their "brand" on, and
also what value they choose to add as an organisation between delivery
of the product from manufacturing and to the end user.


Paradoxically, even that is inconsistent.

For example, both Bosch and Makita make pretty good routers.

However product managers at both manufacturers have decided that it's
necessary to have product bundles with packets of cutters because the
cheap manufacturers do it.

They then proceed to procure cheap **** cutters and put their brand
label on them. It is very obvious that the cutters are not of the
same quality as CMT or Freud. They do the same thing with packs of
drills given away with some cordless tool bundles.

Rather stupid, because they don't need to do it and are just
prostituting their brand.


They would be far better off doing a deal with Freud or CMT and
including a discount voucher towards purchase of one of their
products.


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:

For example, both Bosch and Makita make pretty good routers.

However product managers at both manufacturers have decided that it's
necessary to have product bundles with packets of cutters because the
cheap manufacturers do it.

They then proceed to procure cheap **** cutters and put their brand
label on them. It is very obvious that the cutters are not of the
same quality as CMT or Freud. They do the same thing with packs of
drills given away with some cordless tool bundles.

Rather stupid, because they don't need to do it and are just
prostituting their brand.


They would be far better off doing a deal with Freud or CMT and
including a discount voucher towards purchase of one of their
products.

Or include the cutters but badge those with different branding, so the
main brand is not tarnished.


NT

Grunff wrote:
sPoNiX wrote:

FWIW, Bosch are made by Skil (Or vice versa?)


Bosch bought Skil in the mid 1990s. Nothing wrong with Skil stuff.


--
Grunff

The Skil drill my father bought was total pants but mind you so was the
green Bosch one.
Although that hasn't stopped me from buying Bosch stuff because I'm
still happy with their other products.

On 25 Jan 2006 09:37:49 -0800, wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

For example, both Bosch and Makita make pretty good routers.

However product managers at both manufacturers have decided that it's
necessary to have product bundles with packets of cutters because the
cheap manufacturers do it.

They then proceed to procure cheap **** cutters and put their brand
label on them. It is very obvious that the cutters are not of the
same quality as CMT or Freud. They do the same thing with packs of
drills given away with some cordless tool bundles.

Rather stupid, because they don't need to do it and are just
prostituting their brand.


They would be far better off doing a deal with Freud or CMT and
including a discount voucher towards purchase of one of their
products.

Or include the cutters but badge those with different branding, so the
main brand is not tarnished.

OK, but why bother?

If somebody is sufficiently discerning to buy a better tool then they
are likely to be looking for better consumables.

Ironically, if you buy a good quality circular or compound mitre saw,
you will generally get a respectable blade with it. Probably not top
of the range, but respectable. Hence one can put a mid range blade
on a cheap saw and make quite an improvement.


--

..andy

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:30:00 +0000, Owain
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl
hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low)
price.

On the contrary, much of Lidl's cheese, charcuterie and chocolate is
better than more "prestigious" supermarkets.

And cheaper.

Owain

I wouldn't buy any of those things in any UK supermarket, prestigious
or not.

I might buy certain French cheeses in certain French supermarkets, but
that is a different proposition entirely.





--

..andy

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:23:35 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 25 Jan 2006 09:37:49 -0800, wrote:


Or include the cutters but badge those with different branding, so the
main brand is not tarnished.

OK, but why bother?

If somebody is sufficiently discerning to buy a better tool then they
are likely to be looking for better consumables.

Hi,

I wouldn't want to use top quality cutters on chipboard and MDF, as
the glue blunts them much more quickly, so a free set of cheaper
cutters would be quite welcome.

Ironically, if you buy a good quality circular or compound mitre saw,
you will generally get a respectable blade with it. Probably not top
of the range, but respectable. Hence one can put a mid range blade
on a cheap saw and make quite an improvement.

If finish is important a cheap blade with more teeth is another
alternative. I've got a 48T in my circular saw, came with the saw plus
another spare blade for £24 total The other blade I'll use for MDF
and rough work.

cheers,
Pete.

Andy Hall wrote:

I wouldn't buy any of those things in any UK supermarket, prestigious
or not.

I might buy certain French cheeses in certain French supermarkets, but
that is a different proposition entirely.

Andy, you are the ultimate label whore :-)

Dave

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:32:08 GMT, "david lang"
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

I wouldn't buy any of those things in any UK supermarket, prestigious
or not.

I might buy certain French cheeses in certain French supermarkets, but
that is a different proposition entirely.

Andy, you are the ultimate label whore :-)

Dave



Nah. French cheeses are generic. Although I must admit that there
are some that I like more than others.




--

..andy

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:19:44 +0000, Pete C
wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:23:35 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 25 Jan 2006 09:37:49 -0800, wrote:


Or include the cutters but badge those with different branding, so the
main brand is not tarnished.

OK, but why bother?

If somebody is sufficiently discerning to buy a better tool then they
are likely to be looking for better consumables.

Hi,

I wouldn't want to use top quality cutters on chipboard and MDF, as
the glue blunts them much more quickly, so a free set of cheaper
cutters would be quite welcome.

To some extent I agree, and one can't put a fine finish on particle
board anyway. MDF does lend itself better to machining.

I still prefer to buy consumables separately though.



Ironically, if you buy a good quality circular or compound mitre saw,
you will generally get a respectable blade with it. Probably not top
of the range, but respectable. Hence one can put a mid range blade
on a cheap saw and make quite an improvement.

If finish is important a cheap blade with more teeth is another
alternative. I've got a 48T in my circular saw, came with the saw plus
another spare blade for £24 total The other blade I'll use for MDF
and rough work.

That's reasonable depending on the mix of work, I agree.


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 17:10:47 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:


Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices
down, and most likely quality up.

I have no idea. Look at their web site.

Have you actually owned, used or even looked at anything they make?

I have held them and them walked away when seeing the price. They
seemto be high craftsman tool.

Cutting out middle men will also
bring prices down as well.

That's pretty obvious but depends on what the so called "middle men"
do. If it's simply distribution with no added value, then certainly.
If it's a support and service organisation, that is a different
matter.


Price is not a true indicator.


Price is *an* indicator, but doesn't replace researching the purchase
properly.


I know, I buy
lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the
items I buy and that included tools.

Well yes. A sack of cement is, well, a sack of cement.

And the price of the sacks can vary.

After reading this forum I popped
into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as
equal to many costsing 10 times as much.


It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying.
If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl
hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low)
price.

I bought some hand tools from Lidl which for 99p each are quite good.
They will last a few years or more. I can't belive how cheap they were.
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

One has to look at the whole product offering and then to decide
whether that is worth the price being asked.

That is right. And as I said, high price doesn't always equal high
quality or good value for money. I am still drawn towards Ryobi for the
one battey set, and they do sell just the tool without the batteries. I
want to start a one battery collection, maybe starting with Ryobi or
DeWalt. You do say Ryobi come in tops on value for money, so that must
say something. They are also geared for the professional user, while PP
Ro is serious DIY. If they get through the guarantee period and break
down they have been thrashed by me anyway. The time having the thing
repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth. If I
get 3 years from a £60 to £100 power tool then I am happy as they
have been used and abused in that time and paid their way.






--

.andy

On 25 Jan 2006 16:03:53 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 17:10:47 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:


Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices
down, and most likely quality up.

I have no idea. Look at their web site.

Have you actually owned, used or even looked at anything they make?

I have held them and them walked away when seeing the price. They
seemto be high craftsman tool.

Certainly Festool's products are geared for the quality part of the
market and where ergonomics of use are important to the user.

However, they also have a good track record on innovation.

Some examples:

- Guide tracks with adaptors for circular and jig saws and routers are
available from most brand manufacturers and there are a number of
after market products as well. Festool have done an integration on
some tools whereby the cutting blade is precisely at the edge of the
guide. Thus the guide can be easily located and self clamped to the
work and the tool is easy and quick to use.

- The C12 drill is the first with a stepper motor. Control of motor
speed and torque and the clutch are nothing short of superb.

- Their Systainer containers clip and stack together neatly. They
will even clip to the top of their vacuum cleaner/extractor for
convenience.





Cutting out middle men will also
bring prices down as well.

That's pretty obvious but depends on what the so called "middle men"
do. If it's simply distribution with no added value, then certainly.
If it's a support and service organisation, that is a different
matter.


Price is not a true indicator.


Price is *an* indicator, but doesn't replace researching the purchase
properly.


I know, I buy
lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the
items I buy and that included tools.

Well yes. A sack of cement is, well, a sack of cement.

And the price of the sacks can vary.


Exactly. The point is that this is a commodity product. As long as
it is dry and in date, it will probably be OK. Then the only two
questions are price and availability.


Tools are quite different.

There is certainly a commodity part of the market where price is the
main factor with little regard to anything else.

THere are, however, demonstrably better products at higher levels and
price points in the market, where people are looking for performance,
features and services not offered at the commodity end.



After reading this forum I popped
into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as
equal to many costsing 10 times as much.


It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying.
If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl
hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low)
price.

I bought some hand tools from Lidl which for 99p each are quite good.
They will last a few years or more. I can't belive how cheap they were.

I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.





One has to look at the whole product offering and then to decide
whether that is worth the price being asked.

That is right. And as I said, high price doesn't always equal high
quality or good value for money. I am still drawn towards Ryobi for the
one battey set, and they do sell just the tool without the batteries. I
want to start a one battery collection, maybe starting with Ryobi or
DeWalt. You do say Ryobi come in tops on value for money, so that must
say something.

Not always. Their products came low down even on this in some
categories. Hence the strategy of always buying one brand, doesn't
really work if you want either best of breed or best value for money.

I think that it's typically reasonable within tool types. For example
drills from Makita, but I don't think I'd buy a cordless circular saw
from anybody apart from perhaps a small trimming one with small blade.


They are also geared for the professional user, while PP
Ro is serious DIY.

Actually that isn't quite true.

The manufacturers, Techtronics Industries, in China,
(www.ttigroup.com) position the Ryobi brand as follows:

"Ryobi is the brand of choice for millions of home improvement
enthusiasts, woodworkers, craftspeople, and value-conscious
contractors worldwide"

To me, the term "value concious contractor" is marketing euphemism for
people for whom low price is more important than quality.

They talk about "pro-featured", not professional.


Their professional brand is Milwaukee:

"Today, the Milwaukee name stands for the highest quality, durable and
reliable professional tools money can buy."

They talk about highest quality heavy duty tools for professional
work.


If you compare the two brands side by side, the differences are
obvious.


I am not sure what describes "serious DIY" - I don't see that relating
to anything very much.

I remain to be convinced that TTI's private label stuff is any better
than any other Chinese manufacturing house's private label stuff.






If they get through the guarantee period and break
down they have been thrashed by me anyway. The time having the thing
repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth. If I
get 3 years from a £60 to £100 power tool then I am happy as they
have been used and abused in that time and paid their way.


I'd rather spend a little more and have something that feels better in
use, produces a better outcome and is less likely to break in the
first place.


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
timegoesby wrote:
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.


If they get through the guarantee period and break
down they have been thrashed by me anyway.

[insert space]

The time having the thing
repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth.

I refer Mr timegoesby to a comment I made earlier.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:27:02 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
timegoesby wrote:
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.

So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?





--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:
timegoesby wrote:
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.


So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?

Don't be obtuse. Read what I included from timegoesby.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:19:39 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
Chris Bacon wrote:
Andy Hall wrote:
timegoesby wrote:
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.


So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?

Don't be obtuse. Read what I included from timegoesby.


I'm not being obtuse at all.


There are several ways to deal with a reliability issue.

a) Buy a cheap tool. If it breaks during the warranty period, you
still have to take the time to return it and/or buy another.

b) Buy two tools. The first one breaks and you use the second.
Considering that the first has been unreliable, it is more likely than
not that the second will be as well and might even fail after a short
time. This is even more likely if both were from the same batch or
made around the same time. It also doubles the cost to the point
where a better quality tool could have been purchased, better results
had and more reliability as well.

c) Buy a good quality tool in the first place. Reliability and
longevity will be better in something that is designed for regular,
professional use. That's the whole point. Manufacturers of these
tools have next day spares back up for parts and repairs are easy
because product design is done well.

d) Buy two different professional tools with some degree of functional
overlap. For example, I have a Bosch Multidrill SDS/conventional
drill. It mainly gets used for heavier weight work but can happily
deal with mid range work as well such as larger wood drilling etc.
I also have a chunky 18v Makita cordless drill. That will do up to
and including quite a lot of masonry work if it has to do so.
I think that this is a far better solution to a) and b) especially as
quality of use and result are also better and the reliability of
better designed and manufactured tools is higher in the first place.


--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:19:39 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

Chris Bacon wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

timegoesby wrote:

I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.


So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?

Don't be obtuse. Read what I included from timegoesby.



I'm not being obtuse at all.


There are several ways to deal with a reliability issue.

a) Buy a cheap tool. If it breaks during the warranty period, you
still have to take the time to return it and/or buy another.

b) Buy two tools. The first one breaks and you use the second.
Considering that the first has been unreliable, it is more likely than
not that the second will be as well and might even fail after a short
time. This is even more likely if both were from the same batch or
made around the same time. It also doubles the cost to the point
where a better quality tool could have been purchased, better results
had and more reliability as well.

c) Buy a good quality tool in the first place. Reliability and
longevity will be better in something that is designed for regular,
professional use. That's the whole point. Manufacturers of these
tools have next day spares back up for parts and repairs are easy
because product design is done well.

d) Buy two different professional tools with some degree of functional
overlap. For example, I have a Bosch Multidrill SDS/conventional
drill. It mainly gets used for heavier weight work but can happily
deal with mid range work as well such as larger wood drilling etc.
I also have a chunky 18v Makita cordless drill. That will do up to
and including quite a lot of masonry work if it has to do so.
I think that this is a far better solution to a) and b) especially as
quality of use and result are also better and the reliability of
better designed and manufactured tools is higher in the first place.

I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
have made a cock-up.

timegoesby wrote:
I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't
been out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down
when you use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so
backup on essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

So, Mr. timegoesby, what tool do you use that you keep
the backup SDS for, as a matter of interest?

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:23:19 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:19:39 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:

Chris Bacon wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

timegoesby wrote:

I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

Everything breaks down. It's good to have backup.


So you're going to keep two of everything, just in case?

Don't be obtuse. Read what I included from timegoesby.



I'm not being obtuse at all.


There are several ways to deal with a reliability issue.

a) Buy a cheap tool. If it breaks during the warranty period, you
still have to take the time to return it and/or buy another.

b) Buy two tools. The first one breaks and you use the second.
Considering that the first has been unreliable, it is more likely than
not that the second will be as well and might even fail after a short
time. This is even more likely if both were from the same batch or
made around the same time. It also doubles the cost to the point
where a better quality tool could have been purchased, better results
had and more reliability as well.

c) Buy a good quality tool in the first place. Reliability and
longevity will be better in something that is designed for regular,
professional use. That's the whole point. Manufacturers of these
tools have next day spares back up for parts and repairs are easy
because product design is done well.

d) Buy two different professional tools with some degree of functional
overlap. For example, I have a Bosch Multidrill SDS/conventional
drill. It mainly gets used for heavier weight work but can happily
deal with mid range work as well such as larger wood drilling etc.
I also have a chunky 18v Makita cordless drill. That will do up to
and including quite a lot of masonry work if it has to do so.
I think that this is a far better solution to a) and b) especially as
quality of use and result are also better and the reliability of
better designed and manufactured tools is higher in the first place.

I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
have made a cock-up.



Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
professional tool.

Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
application? It's a nonsense.

--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:
I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
have made a cock-up.

Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
professional tool.

Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
application? It's a nonsense.

What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes
holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
from 'professional' brick walls.

The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have
different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application
is the same.

--
Chris Green

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

|Andy Hall wrote:
| I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
| who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
| It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
| You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
| have made a cock-up.
|
| Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
| pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
| professional tool.
|
| Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
| application? It's a nonsense.
|
|What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes
|holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
|from 'professional' brick walls.
|
|The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have
|different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application
|is the same.

As I drill a few holes occasionally I class myself as DIY and buy
accordingly.
If I were to drill a few holes per day, I would class myself as
professional, and pay a lot more for ?professional? tools in the hope that
they would last longer.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net
For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

|Andy Hall wrote:
| I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
| who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
| It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
| You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
| have made a cock-up.
|
| Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
| pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
| professional tool.
|
| Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
| application? It's a nonsense.
|
|What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes
|holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
|from 'professional' brick walls.
|
|The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have
|different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application
|is the same.

As I drill a few holes occasionally I class myself as DIY and buy
accordingly.
If I were to drill a few holes per day, I would class myself as
professional, and pay a lot more for ?professional? tools in the hope that
they would last longer.

*Did anyone actually read what timegoesby actually wrote?*

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
have made a cock-up.

Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
professional tool.

Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
application? It's a nonsense.

What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'?

In the case of an SDS drill, related to the volume of work.

An SDS drill makes
holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
from 'professional' brick walls.

Incorrect. It would depend on the amount of work. A large project
or series of projects undertaken on a DIY basis - i.e. by an
individual for themselves as opposed to paying a professional may well
require the same amount of work with a given tool as a professional
might have. A professional quality tool is much more likely to be
able to tackle a large scale project without failing or burning out
than a toy drill from Aldi.



The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have
different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application
is the same.

Not necessarily. The user may well have requirements that have
nothing to do with whether they are doing the work for themselves or
professionally. For example, I want a tool to have good ergonomics
and ease of use behaviour. I want to be able to use it all day long
if necessary without waiting for it to cool down.


--

..andy

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:15:57 +0000, Chris Bacon
wrote:

Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

|Andy Hall wrote:
| I'm leaving all that in hoping to get a comment from timegoesby,
| who said he "bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup.
| It hasn't been out the box yet and stays in the van in case".
| You appear, in your hurry to defend your perceived position, to
| have made a cock-up.
|
| Not at all. I don't have any position to defend. The logic is
| pretty obvious if the application is a professional one. Use a
| professional tool.
|
| Why would anybody buy an SDS drill from Aldi for a professional
| application? It's a nonsense.
|
|What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'? An SDS drill makes
|holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
|from 'professional' brick walls.
|
|The *user* may be a prefoessional/commercial user and thus have
|different requirements but (particularly) in this case the application
|is the same.

As I drill a few holes occasionally I class myself as DIY and buy
accordingly.
If I were to drill a few holes per day, I would class myself as
professional, and pay a lot more for ?professional? tools in the hope that
they would last longer.

*Did anyone actually read what timegoesby actually wrote?*

Yes.

"I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't
been out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down
when you use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so
backup on essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me."

Would you think that it means anything other than having two SDS
drills?



--

..andy

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'?

An SDS drill makes
holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
from 'professional' brick walls.


I think there are many differences really. Longevity first, a cheapie
tool used once a month will last a diyer maybe 20 years, but in day in
day out pro use it might be dead within a month. Not only will your
tools ahve short lives, but there will be replacement collection costs
too. The economics are fairly different.

Then there's quality of end result. A kinzo mitre saw wont give you the
same dead-accurate angles as something pro. Its not bad but not
perfect. Taking that further, many tools are of such poor quality
theyre just not able to do various jobs. Basic tools dont always pass
pro standards, whereas for occasional diyers with lower standards
theyre mostly accepted.

Then theres time. A cheapskate cordless will take much longer to do
larger jobs than a quick charging high capacity multi-battery higher
efficiency dewalt.

There are other quality issues too: cheap angle grinders vibrate like
hell, which is fine for a job here and there, but not use all day every
day.

Finally there's image. If you turn up on a job with the same tools the
customer's got, theyre likely to think they could have done it
themselves, and next time may well try. Show up with professional
expensive looking tools and the business stays yours.


NT

On 26 Jan 2006 09:54:12 -0800, wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

What the ?|"£$%^ is a 'professional application'?

An SDS drill makes
holes in brick walls (or whatever), 'DIY' brick walls are no different
from 'professional' brick walls.


I think there are many differences really. Longevity first, a cheapie
tool used once a month will last a diyer maybe 20 years, but in day in
day out pro use it might be dead within a month.

Possibly. However, that is assuming that longevity is the only
factor.


Not only will your
tools ahve short lives, but there will be replacement collection costs
too. The economics are fairly different.

Yes. If one values time, that is significant.


Then there's quality of end result. A kinzo mitre saw wont give you the
same dead-accurate angles as something pro. Its not bad but not
perfect. Taking that further, many tools are of such poor quality
theyre just not able to do various jobs. Basic tools dont always pass
pro standards, whereas for occasional diyers with lower standards
theyre mostly accepted.

Possible. However, to say that DIY equates to low price and
acceptance of poor standards is not reasonable.

It might suit the manufacturers to position products in that way, but
people should not feel fobbed off with the notion that DIY implies
third rate results.



Then theres time. A cheapskate cordless will take much longer to do
larger jobs than a quick charging high capacity multi-battery higher
efficiency dewalt.

There are other quality issues too: cheap angle grinders vibrate like
hell, which is fine for a job here and there, but not use all day every
day.


This is the ergonomic issue.




Finally there's image. If you turn up on a job with the same tools the
customer's got, theyre likely to think they could have done it
themselves, and next time may well try. Show up with professional
expensive looking tools and the business stays yours.


That's possible, although I don't thonk that it should be a major
reason for purchase of professional tools. However, I think that the
thought makes sense. Image and showing confidence do matter.






--

..andy

Andy Hall wrote:

I bought some hand tools from Lidl which for 99p each are quite good.
They will last a few years or more. I can't belive how cheap they were.

I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.

You missed the point. I have a pro SDS and the £25 Aldi SDS is for
backup for when the SDS breaks down. I have burnt out DeWalt and Wickes
SDS drills. SDS drills don't like abuse and constant hammering. I ran
the Aldi SDS and it appears to work OK. No holes have been drilled with
it yet. If it gets me through the time to get another pro SDS then it
is well worth the £25.

Their professional brand is Milwaukee:

"Today, the Milwaukee name stands for the highest quality, durable and
reliable professional tools money can buy."

They talk about highest quality heavy duty tools for professional
work.

And prices that exceed Makita. Screwfix now sell them. I will wait for
reprts on that range. I suspect they will be Ryobis underneath.

If they get through the guarantee period and break
down they have been thrashed by me anyway. The time having the thing
repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth. If I
get 3 years from a £60 to £100 power tool then I am happy as they
have been used and abused in that time and paid their way.

I'd rather spend a little more and have something that feels better in
use, produces a better outcome and is less likely to break in the
first place.

I have burnt them all out. DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, cheap no name makes.
I have always been impressed by the odd cheapie that lasts far longer
than I thought for buttons.

My long term plan is to go the one battery way, as there is less to
carry around. Middle brands are as good as the so called top pro stuff.
I have not ever bought Altas Copco or Panasonic, as the price made me
look away, so my experience is Makita, the Wickes Kress, Bosch and
DeWalt in the top prices. I assure you, none of these tools bounce, and
the thought of bouncing a Panasonic would be too much to contemplate,
so middle branded stuff it is, as they are cheap enough to replace.

Chris Bacon wrote:
Dave Fawthrop wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:23 +0000 (UTC), wrote:

*Did anyone actually read what timegoesby actually wrote?*

Appears they never. Mr Hall went off on rant again. It is cheaper to
pay £125 for a Wickes SDS and an Aldi SDS for backup than £200 for
two Wickes. I was surprised that the Aldi SDS has a 6 month pro
guarantee and 3 years DIY, not that would use the pro guarantee unless
the Wickes crashed and then the Aldi. I am on a Wickes SDS which is
made by Kress. I like Wickes as they are everywhere and sell some
decent tools at decent prices. If a distress purchase then you can't go
wrong with Wickes. They don't have a one battery tools systems. If they
did I would standardise on their stuff.