On 25 Jan 2006 16:03:53 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 17:10:47 -0800, wrote:


Andy Hall wrote:


Are Festool hand made? An automated production line will bring prices
down, and most likely quality up.

I have no idea. Look at their web site.

Have you actually owned, used or even looked at anything they make?

I have held them and them walked away when seeing the price. They
seemto be high craftsman tool.

Certainly Festool's products are geared for the quality part of the
market and where ergonomics of use are important to the user.

However, they also have a good track record on innovation.

Some examples:

- Guide tracks with adaptors for circular and jig saws and routers are
available from most brand manufacturers and there are a number of
after market products as well. Festool have done an integration on
some tools whereby the cutting blade is precisely at the edge of the
guide. Thus the guide can be easily located and self clamped to the
work and the tool is easy and quick to use.

- The C12 drill is the first with a stepper motor. Control of motor
speed and torque and the clutch are nothing short of superb.

- Their Systainer containers clip and stack together neatly. They
will even clip to the top of their vacuum cleaner/extractor for
convenience.





Cutting out middle men will also
bring prices down as well.

That's pretty obvious but depends on what the so called "middle men"
do. If it's simply distribution with no added value, then certainly.
If it's a support and service organisation, that is a different
matter.


Price is not a true indicator.


Price is *an* indicator, but doesn't replace researching the purchase
properly.


I know, I buy
lots of building stuff and price does not equal quality in 50% of the
items I buy and that included tools.

Well yes. A sack of cement is, well, a sack of cement.

And the price of the sacks can vary.


Exactly. The point is that this is a commodity product. As long as
it is dry and in date, it will probably be OK. Then the only two
questions are price and availability.


Tools are quite different.

There is certainly a commodity part of the market where price is the
main factor with little regard to anything else.

THere are, however, demonstrably better products at higher levels and
price points in the market, where people are looking for performance,
features and services not offered at the commodity end.



After reading this forum I popped
into Aldi and Lidl and found that hand tools costing a few quid were as
equal to many costsing 10 times as much.


It is taking advice, and learning from others mistakes and then trying.
If I bought on high price alone I would be on the dole and in debt.

That's pretty obvious. Equally, buying things in Aldi and Lidl
hardly describes a purchaser buying on anything other than (low)
price.

I bought some hand tools from Lidl which for 99p each are quite good.
They will last a few years or more. I can't belive how cheap they were.

I bought an SDS drill from Aldi and use it as a backup. It hasn't been
out the box yet and stays in the van in case. Tools break down when you
use them, not in the box giving you time to buy another, so backup on
essential tools like SDS drills is a good thing for me.

I'd prefer to buy something that is unlikely to break down in the
first place.





One has to look at the whole product offering and then to decide
whether that is worth the price being asked.

That is right. And as I said, high price doesn't always equal high
quality or good value for money. I am still drawn towards Ryobi for the
one battey set, and they do sell just the tool without the batteries. I
want to start a one battery collection, maybe starting with Ryobi or
DeWalt. You do say Ryobi come in tops on value for money, so that must
say something.

Not always. Their products came low down even on this in some
categories. Hence the strategy of always buying one brand, doesn't
really work if you want either best of breed or best value for money.

I think that it's typically reasonable within tool types. For example
drills from Makita, but I don't think I'd buy a cordless circular saw
from anybody apart from perhaps a small trimming one with small blade.


They are also geared for the professional user, while PP
Ro is serious DIY.

Actually that isn't quite true.

The manufacturers, Techtronics Industries, in China,
(www.ttigroup.com) position the Ryobi brand as follows:

"Ryobi is the brand of choice for millions of home improvement
enthusiasts, woodworkers, craftspeople, and value-conscious
contractors worldwide"

To me, the term "value concious contractor" is marketing euphemism for
people for whom low price is more important than quality.

They talk about "pro-featured", not professional.


Their professional brand is Milwaukee:

"Today, the Milwaukee name stands for the highest quality, durable and
reliable professional tools money can buy."

They talk about highest quality heavy duty tools for professional
work.


If you compare the two brands side by side, the differences are
obvious.


I am not sure what describes "serious DIY" - I don't see that relating
to anything very much.

I remain to be convinced that TTI's private label stuff is any better
than any other Chinese manufacturing house's private label stuff.






If they get through the guarantee period and break
down they have been thrashed by me anyway. The time having the thing
repaired is a problem and more of a hassle than what it's worth. If I
get 3 years from a £60 to £100 power tool then I am happy as they
have been used and abused in that time and paid their way.


I'd rather spend a little more and have something that feels better in
use, produces a better outcome and is less likely to break in the
first place.


--

..andy