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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Central heating
Not really up on this, i can plumb a central heating system in but I just
phoned someone who is having CH installed by EAGA gov grant funding and what i can gather is 5 Rads,Combi boiler, and a wireless themostat is to be installed. I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite |
#2
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Central heating
"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message
... Not really up on this, i can plumb a central heating system in but I just phoned someone who is having CH installed by EAGA gov grant funding and what i can gather is 5 Rads,Combi boiler, and a wireless themostat is to be installed. I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite Don't know why but in my 3 houses they have always been in the hall. -- Steve Remove "nospam" from email address to reply to me personally |
#3
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Central heating
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:54:05 GMT, "The3rd Earl Of Derby"
wrote: |Not really up on this, i can plumb a central heating system in but I just |phoned someone who is having CH installed by EAGA gov grant funding and |what i can gather is 5 Rads,Combi boiler, and a wireless themostat is tobe |installed. |I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are |positioning the thermostat in the hallway. | |Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? Because heat from all the house convects there, so it is affected by all the rads which probably have TRVs fitted. So it senses approximately the average temperature of the house. In my case the unTRVed radiator will be in the hall, so if the hall gets too hot the boiler switches off. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
#4
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Central heating
I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are
positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? It is traditional because when central heating was originally installed, people often still had additional heating in the lounge. You can't put the thermostat in the same room as an additional heater (i.e. gas/solid fire) as it will fool the system into making the rest of the house cold. However, Luddite plumbers still put the stat in the hallway even though people haven't installed ugly gas fires since the 1970s. The room that the stat in has the most comfortable and reliable heating, so you want it to be the most frequently used room. You need to balance it and choose the radiators such that it is the slowest room in the zone to heat up so that the other rooms' TRVs close off whilst the boiler is still firing. Christian. |
#5
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Central heating
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message ... I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? It is traditional because when central heating was originally installed, people often still had additional heating in the lounge. You can't put the thermostat in the same room as an additional heater (i.e. gas/solid fire) as it will fool the system into making the rest of the house cold. However, Luddite plumbers still put the stat in the hallway even though people haven't installed ugly gas fires since the 1970s. The room that the stat in has the most comfortable and reliable heating, so you want it to be the most frequently used room. You need to balance it and choose the radiators such that it is the slowest room in the zone to heat up so that the other rooms' TRVs close off whilst the boiler is still firing. Don't use terms like Luddite then ignore current standards and the option of employing TRVs g |
#6
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Central heating
"The3rd Earl Of Derby" wrote in message ... Christian McArdle wrote: I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? It is traditional because when central heating was originally installed, people often still had additional heating in the lounge. You can't put the thermostat in the same room as an additional heater (i.e. gas/solid fire) as it will fool the system into making the rest of the house cold. .....and why are boilers often installed in the kitchen? John |
#7
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Central heating
In article ,
john wrote: ....and why are boilers often installed in the kitchen? Because it already has a gas and water supply? Mine is in the (large) bathroom where any excess heat is welcome. It's not in a working kitchen. -- *Horn broken. - Watch for finger. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#8
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Central heating
"Christian McArdle" wrote in message ... I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? It's very convenient for the householder to adjust the controls in the hall rather than in any other part of the house. Mary |
#9
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Central heating
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:29:53 +0000, The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Christian McArdle wrote: I'm a bit mystified as to what he told me over the phone that they are positioning the thermostat in the hallway. Can somebody enlighten me as to why the hallway of all places? It is traditional because when central heating was originally installed, people often still had additional heating in the lounge. You can't put the thermostat in the same room as an additional heater (i.e. gas/solid fire) as it will fool the system into making the rest of the house cold. However, Luddite plumbers still put the stat in the hallway even though people haven't installed ugly gas fires since the 1970s. The room that the stat in has the most comfortable and reliable heating, so you want it to be the most frequently used room. You need to balance it and choose the radiators such that it is the slowest room in the zone to heat up so that the other rooms' TRVs close off whilst the boiler is still firing. Christian. Thanks for that. He was a bit miffed at having it in the hall and I suggested sticking a picture over it. ;-) As with all these matters there is a mixture of personal preferences, regulations, common practice and existing arrangements to be taken into account. Very often living rooms do have an additional source of heat (various forms of display or real fires, say). Also the living room might be one that is subject to a substantial solar gain. [Imagine -5C outside and a totally cloudless sky with the sun nearly horizontal straight in through the large patio window?] I totally agree with Christian about the need to make sure that the area governed by the thermostat is a bit slower than the rest of the house/zone to warm up. A big advantage is that the heating control in the hall is right to hand whe you come in. (I think it's "Luddite" to still be using separate time and temperature controls! Ferreting around in utility cupboard or under kitchen units to switch the heating on. Sometimes the wiring is already in place to the hallway. My MIL, aged 90, has the thermostat in the living room and a display gas fire, the rest of the house gets cold when the fire is in use (which she likes to use). -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#10
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Central heating
On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:17:59 +0000, Ed Sirett
wrote: |A big advantage is that the heating control in the hall is right to hand |whe you come in. (I think it's "Luddite" to still be using separate time |and temperature controls! Ferreting around in utility cupboard or under |kitchen units to switch the heating on. It is always possible to turn the thermostat down to say 5 deg C so that it acts as a frost stat rather than turning the heating off. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
#11
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Central heating
"Ed Sirett" wrote As with all these matters there is a mixture of personal preferences, regulations, common practice and existing arrangements to be taken into account. Very often living rooms do have an additional source of heat (various forms of display or real fires, say). Also the living room might be one that is subject to a substantial solar gain. [Imagine -5C outside and a totally cloudless sky with the sun nearly horizontal straight in through the large patio window?] I totally agree with Christian about the need to make sure that the area governed by the thermostat is a bit slower than the rest of the house/zone to warm up. A big advantage is that the heating control in the hall is right to hand whe you come in. (I think it's "Luddite" to still be using separate time and temperature controls! Ferreting around in utility cupboard or under kitchen units to switch the heating on. Sometimes the wiring is already in place to the hallway. My MIL, aged 90, has the thermostat in the living room and a display gas fire, the rest of the house gets cold when the fire is in use (which she likes to use). Another thing to consider, apart from additional heating appliances and solar gain, is other heating sources. Each warm body is reckoned to be 300W, then you've got all the lighting in a lounge, not to mention TVs etc. All these can conspire to make the lounge warmer and the rest of the house cold. Steve S |
#12
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Central heating
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 07:37:57 GMT, "Steve S" wrote:
| Each warm body is reckoned to be 300W, |then you've got all the lighting in a lounge, not to mention TVs etc. All |these can conspire to make the lounge warmer and the rest of the house cold. The figure for watching TV is about 100 watts. 300 watts is someone doing vigorous exercise continuously. Now what vigorous exercise do *you* do in the lounge ;-) -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
#13
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Central heating
....and why are boilers often installed in the kitchen?
Because it already has a gas and water supply? It is also a room that can accept a certain noise level without comment. A utility room is even better. Mine's in the loft which would be an excellent place for it if it wasn't taking the place that my bed should be after the conversion... Christian. |
#14
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Central heating
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote: Not really up on this, i can plumb a central heating system in but I just phoned someone who is having CH installed by EAGA gov grant funding and what i can gather is 5 Rads,Combi boiler, and a wireless themostat is to be installed. If its a wireless thermostat can't your friend move it, within reason ? |
#15
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Central heating
If its a wireless thermostat can't your friend move it, within reason ?
Yes, although you may also need to move a TRV from the new location to the hallway. Christian. |
#16
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Central heating
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Fawthrop wrote: On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:17:59 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote: A big advantage is that the heating control in the hall is right to hand whe you come in. (I think it's "Luddite" to still be using separate time and temperature controls! Ferreting around in utility cupboard or under kitchen units to switch the heating on. It is always possible to turn the thermostat down to say 5 deg C so that it acts as a frost stat rather than turning the heating off. Not unless you alter the wiring! If you *just* turn the stat down, the heating will *only* come on when the temperature falls below 5 degrees - which is unlikely to be acceptable! -- Cheers, Set Square ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid. |
#17
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Central heating
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:11:21 -0000, "Set Square" wrote:
|In an earlier contribution to this discussion, |Dave Fawthrop wrote: | | On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:17:59 +0000, Ed Sirett | wrote: | | | A big advantage is that the heating control in the hall is right to | hand whe you come in. (I think it's "Luddite" to still be using | separate time and temperature controls! Ferreting around in utility | cupboard or under kitchen units to switch the heating on. | | It is always possible to turn the thermostat down to say 5 deg C so | that it acts as a frost stat rather than turning the heating off. | |Not unless you alter the wiring! If you *just* turn the stat down, the |heating will *only* come on when the temperature falls below 5 degrees - |which is unlikely to be acceptable! In other words turning it down to 5 deg C is the same as turning it off most of the year. -- Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk 17,000 free e-books at Project Gutenberg! http://www.gutenberg.net For Yorkshire Dialect go to www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ |
#18
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Central heating
"Dave Fawthrop" wrote The figure for watching TV is about 100 watts. 300 watts is someone doing vigorous exercise continuously. Now what vigorous exercise do *you* do in the lounge ;-) Got the figure off some official website somewhere. A simple calculation should have told me that it is a bogus figure. :-(. The fact remains, though, that a combination of warm bodies, appliances and lighting can easily conspire to make a lounge an unsuitable place for a thermostat My own data show this quite clearly. I've been monitoring hall and lounge temperatures. During the daytime, while I'm in my office upstairs and the lounge is unoccupied, the lounge temperature is maintained at around 20.7 C. The radiators (with TRV) come on from time to time, but are clearly not at full bore. During the evening, with 3 or 4 of us in there with the telly and lights on, the temperature creeps up to 21.6 (or higher, sometimes) with little or no heat output from the radiators. And before someone asks, no, the room is not hermetically sealed :-) Steve S |
#19
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Central heating
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Dave Fawthrop wrote: On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:11:21 -0000, "Set Square" wrote: Not unless you alter the wiring! If you *just* turn the stat down, the heating will *only* come on when the temperature falls below 5 degrees - which is unlikely to be acceptable! In other words turning it down to 5 deg C is the same as turning it off most of the year. Precisely - which is sod-all use to the OP and thus a total waste of time suggesting it! -- Cheers, Set Square ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid. |
#20
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Central heating
"Christian McArdle" wrote: The room that the stat in has the most comfortable and reliable heating, so you want it to be the most frequently used room. You need to balance it and choose the radiators such that it is the slowest room in the zone to heat up so that the other rooms' TRVs close off whilst the boiler is still firing. I think there is one snag with this. The setup you describe is fine for a given temperature setpoint. Assume we have reached our setpoint. All rooms are now up to temperature. We now wish to go out for the day and knock the temperature back. I think that what will happen is that the rooms without thermostat but with TRVs will be warmer than we want, and with the expected savings in fuel not being achieved. Using the standard way of balancing, to try to achieve an equal rate of heating in each room, is only way I can think getting round this, apart from using zone valves throughout. Mind you, my sleep deprived brain might have led me to conceptual errors here ;-) Steve S |
#21
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Central heating
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Steve S wrote: I think there is one snag with this. The setup you describe is fine for a given temperature setpoint. Assume we have reached our setpoint. All rooms are now up to temperature. We now wish to go out for the day and knock the temperature back. I think that what will happen is that the rooms without thermostat but with TRVs will be warmer than we want, and with the expected savings in fuel not being achieved. Not necessarily. If the stat is set low, the heating may not come on at all because it will take a while for the house to cool below the lower setting. If it *does* come on, it will only do so sufficiently to bring the room with the stat up to the reduced stat setting. The other rooms will get a bit warm - but probably not sufficiently so for their TRVs to operate - so the fact that the TRVs are set higher than you want under these circumstances is probably not relevant. -- Cheers, Set Square ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid. |
#22
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Central heating
"Set Square" wrote : Not necessarily. If the stat is set low, the heating may not come on at all because it will take a while for the house to cool below the lower setting. If it *does* come on, it will only do so sufficiently to bring the room with the stat up to the reduced stat setting. The other rooms will get a bit warm - but probably not sufficiently so for their TRVs to operate - so the fact that the TRVs are set higher than you want under these circumstances is probably not relevant. The point I was trying to make, though, is that when the house has cooled down to the lower setting, then whenever there is demand it is likely to be with the TRVs at full bore. The energy usage is therefore higher than necessary. Steve S |
#23
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Central heating
"Steve S" wrote in message ... "Set Square" wrote : Not necessarily. If the stat is set low, the heating may not come on at all because it will take a while for the house to cool below the lower setting. If it *does* come on, it will only do so sufficiently to bring the room with the stat up to the reduced stat setting. The other rooms will get a bit warm - but probably not sufficiently so for their TRVs to operate - so the fact that the TRVs are set higher than you want under these circumstances is probably not relevant. The point I was trying to make, though, is that when the house has cooled down to the lower setting, then whenever there is demand it is likely to be with the TRVs at full bore. The energy usage is therefore higher than necessary. Are you overlooking the point that when the stat is not calling for heat "none" of the rads get heat? |
#24
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Central heating
Get TRVs throughout. Replace one head with the decorating cap and swap
decorating cap and trv head if moving wireless stat (or just leave TRV on max in room with wireless stat - it needs excercise theough.) Of course, a decorating cap would leave the radiator full off, unless not screwed on properly. However, many TRV ranges do have a lockshield head that can replace the thermostatic head. Christian. |
#25
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Central heating
"John" wrote Are you overlooking the point that when the stat is not calling for heat "none" of the rads get heat? Not at all. It really depends of how far you lower the thermostat and how long it is at that lower setting. Let's assume that the system is set up and balanced such that the room without TRV, and with thermostat is the slowest to reach desired temperature, as described by Christian. We start at the 'steady state' with all rooms up to temp. TRV's will now be pretty much closed. Maintenance of the setpoint is achieved with flow through the TRV'd radiators being restricted by the TRVs. There is, over a period of time, a given amount, say 'x', of energy required to be output by the boiler. Now we knock the thermostat back a couple of degrees or so to save gas while we are out. We want to save some gas, but not let the house get really cold. During the period of cooldown you are correct. None of the radiators get heat. Energy usage is nil. At some point we reach the new (lower) thermostat setpoint and wish to maintain it until our return. During this period, unless we have adjusted the TRVs, there will be a greater flow through the TRV'd radiators in an attempt to maintain the TRV setpoint. The TRV'd rooms will not achieve the temperature reduction we have requested. Overall, therefore, we have higher energy usage than might be expected from our lowering of the thermostat setpoint. Whether the difference is significant is open to debate. Maybe I'll try some experiments.... Steve S |
#26
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Central heating
The TRV'd rooms will not achieve the temperature reduction we have
requested. Overall, therefore, we have higher energy usage than might be expected from our lowering of the thermostat setpoint. It depends on how well set up the system is. If the thermostated room is set only to be marginally slower to heat than the other rooms, then setting the thermostat back will be effective. The other rooms would only get a couple of degrees warmer than the thermostat room. This is the ideal situation. After all, we don't want the lounge to heat up too slowly, just slowly enough so that the other rooms get a chance to heat up before the stat trips. Christian. |
#27
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Central heating
"Christian McArdle" wrote : It depends on how well set up the system is. If the thermostated room is set only to be marginally slower to heat than the other rooms, then setting the thermostat back will be effective. The other rooms would only get a couple of degrees warmer than the thermostat room. This is the ideal situation. After all, we don't want the lounge to heat up too slowly, just slowly enough so that the other rooms get a chance to heat up before the stat trips. I guess I'll buy that, although I'd rather have the thermostat in the hall :-) Steve S |
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