Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road) they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in no
uncertain terms what I think of this practice.

Half the notes in my wallet don't have the Queen's head dead centre in it's
circle! I think they should put a sign up informing customers that they face
public ridecule if they cash is not in perfect condition.



"Will Hay" wrote in message
...
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in
no
uncertain terms what I think of this practice.

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, "Will Hay"
wrote:

Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road) they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in no
uncertain terms what I think of this practice.



While I seldom use cash for anything or write cheques any more, this
is unacceptable.

I suspect that the manager or area manager has told the staff to be on
the lookout because they've had some experience of some duds recently.

However, they get 0/10 for customer relations - there are much better
ways to handle a situation like this.

I would contact their head office on 023 8025 6256 and ask to speak to
the PA of the chief executive (whose name is Ian Cheshire). Let
her know in no uncertain terms and ask to speak to the honcho himself.
Don't accept being fobbed off to a customer service dweeb if you feel
strongly.

It would also be worth asking them for some form of compensation for
the embarassment. You may well find that a £20 voucher is
forthcoming.

Alternatively, you could contact their parent company, Kingfisher.
Gerry Murphy is the chief executive, there. However, I doubt if this
would be fruitful somehow.



--

..andy

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, Will Hay wrote:

... they rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the
Queen's Head watermark was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank
where I got the money from told me that the notes were absolutely
genuine.

I think I'd have asked the bank to swap them for ones with the Queens
head water mark was dead centre. Remember the person/bank in
possession is the one out of pocket... don't trust banks.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
"Will Hay" writes:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road) they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 12:43:43 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for the
goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to prosecute you
if you just walked off with them.

What a load of ********.

--
Regards
Tony
(Take out the garbage to reply)

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Will Hay" writes:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

tim

On 04 Dec 2005 12:43:43 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Will Hay" writes:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road) they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.


Not sure about that.

The display of the goods on the shelf and you picking them up and
taking them to the register is, I believe, all part of the "invitation
to treat".

They are not required to sell them to you, and the contract of sale
begins when they accept payment.

--

..andy

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, "Will Hay"
wrote:

| Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
| to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)they
| rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
| was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money fromtold
| me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
| other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
| incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
| humiliation of their customers is the final straw.
|
| P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in no
| uncertain terms what I think of this practice.

There are lots of very good forged 20 pound notes in circulation, B&Q
are just being careful. Best stop accepting 20 pound notes until
things clear up.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Sick of Premium SMS scams,
SMS marketing, Direct marketing phone calls, Silent phone calls?
Register with http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/
IME they work :-)

"Will Hay" wrote in message
...
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

I suspect there has probably been a run of good quality dud notes in the
store and the staff have been bollocked by middle management for accepting
them.

Most likely the staff feel agrieved because the fakes notes are really good
and maybe not easily detected by the equipment at hand.

So the staff will now be acting to the letter of their new instruction
rejecting lots of legitimate notes for even minor faults thereby leading to
lots of complaints and maybe even a turndown in takings. Thus leading to
even higher management bollocking the middle management and so taking
pressure off the staff and maybe leading them being provided with decent
quality counterfit detection equipment.

Just a theory.

Henry

Will Hay wrote:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the
ring road) they rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the
Queen's Head watermark was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank
where I got the money from told me that the notes were absolutely
genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two other people having their notes
rejected. If I needed any additional incentive not to shop at B&Q
apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier humiliation of their
customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them
know in no uncertain terms what I think of this practice.


I suspect that if you where running a buisness you would do the same thing
as B&Q has done, as anyone else would do, NOT ACCEPTING IFFY LOOKING
NOTES!!


--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, Will Hay wrote:

... they rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the
Queen's Head watermark was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank
where I got the money from told me that the notes were absolutely
genuine.

I think I'd have asked the bank to swap them for ones with the Queens
head water mark was dead centre. Remember the person/bank in
possession is the one out of pocket... don't trust banks.

Yay! some sense.
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

"Will Hay" wrote in message
...
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in
no
uncertain terms what I think of this practice.



Dump the stuff nd walk out then, B&Q will soon get the idea.

"tim (moved to sweden)" wrote in message
Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that we have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

-- JJ

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 04 Dec 2005 12:43:43 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Will Hay" writes:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this
cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.


Not sure about that.

The display of the goods on the shelf and you picking them up and
taking them to the register is, I believe, all part of the "invitation
to treat".

They are not required to sell them to you, and the contract of sale
begins when they accept payment.

Does it not start once it is rung through the till? If you come up with the
payment, then I can't see how they can refuse to let you take the goods
away. They may argue that the notes are forged, and if they are then you are
in trouble (i.e. you have broken the contract). However once you have handed
those notes over, and they are valid and legal, then that door is yours,
surely, otherwise B&Q are just changing their mind after you have bought the
thing. Just run for it, door under arm! ;-)

Of course, IANAL and all that...

-- JJ

When they give you your change, hold every note up to the light and
reject any that you do not like. Mention in a loud voice why you are
doing it and suggest all others in the queue do the same! I tried it
this morning and they had to call out the manager as all the tills had
stopped!!! Really funny to see dozens of people holding their notes up
to the light...try it!


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, "Will Hay"
wrote:

Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in
no
uncertain terms what I think of this practice.



While I seldom use cash for anything or write cheques any more, this
is unacceptable.

I suspect that the manager or area manager has told the staff to be on
the lookout because they've had some experience of some duds recently.

However, they get 0/10 for customer relations - there are much better
ways to handle a situation like this.

I would contact their head office on 023 8025 6256 and ask to speak to
the PA of the chief executive (whose name is Ian Cheshire). Let
her know in no uncertain terms and ask to speak to the honcho himself.
Don't accept being fobbed off to a customer service dweeb if you feel
strongly.

It would also be worth asking them for some form of compensation for
the embarassment. You may well find that a £20 voucher is
forthcoming.

Alternatively, you could contact their parent company, Kingfisher.
Gerry Murphy is the chief executive, there. However, I doubt if this
would be fruitful somehow.



--

.andy
compensation for embarrasment! never heard anything so funny. Next you
will putting up a list of no win no fee finance agreement claims companies,
Just get over it. It's one of those things, no need to get all worked up,
just speak to B&Q.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:42:08 GMT, "furby" wrote:




It would also be worth asking them for some form of compensation for
the embarassment. You may well find that a £20 voucher is
forthcoming.

Alternatively, you could contact their parent company, Kingfisher.
Gerry Murphy is the chief executive, there. However, I doubt if this
would be fruitful somehow.



--

.andy
compensation for embarrasment! never heard anything so funny.

Perhaps not. However, presumably you wouldn't be interested in
receiving a small ackowledgment that they have screwed up as I have on
several occasions.


Just get over it. It's one of those things, no need to get all worked up,
just speak to B&Q.


I'm not getting worked up over anything, and in this area, never do.

However, I don't accept poor service any more than I accept poor
goods.

In the OP's example, they handled the situation poorly and
insensitively as far as he was concerned and I think that that is
unacceptable. Given that, I think that it is perfectly reasonable
that they should recompense him in some way as at least a goodwill
gesture.

It is even more reasonable to expect recompense for inconvenience.

For example, I had occasion to return a faulty saw to B&Q. Twice.
I'll allow once, but twice is not reasonable. They provided me with
a £20 voucher on a simple request.

On another occasion I was after a shirt from M&S in a particular
colour, size and type identified by stock code and description. I
called the store to check availability and was told that they did and
would hold one for me. When I got there (an hour's round trip), there
wasn't one. I talked to the department manager and £10 in cash was
forthcoming, more than compensating for the fuel to get there, albeit
not for the time. I had to go to an alternate store and overall the
exercise cost 3 hrs.

The point is not about the amount involved but the principle. Mine
is simply to do what you say you are going to do. That can be planned
for and everything taken into account. I see no reason why a store
or a trader should expect to get away with poor goods and especially
poor service, and I think that it is quite reasonable that they lose
some profit margin when they fall short of doing what they say they
will do. There's no emotion in that principle at all - it's part of
a normal business transaction as far as I am concerned.




--

..andy

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:29:31 GMT, "Blueyonder"
wrote:


"tim (moved to sweden)" wrote in message
Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that we have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

-- JJ



That is not correct.

The display of goods on the shelf is an invitation to treat only.

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

http://www.consumereducation.org.uk/...lrights/03.htm

Look at the case between Boots and the PSGB (1953)

http://www.accaglobal.com/publicatio...countant/36664


You can't insist on buying something either. The shop is completely
within its rights to refuse. They are also within their rights to ask
for legal tender as opposed to a credit card for example.

This is not to say that following this whole line is commercially a
good idea, since in practice there would be no point in displaying the
goods if they didn't want to sell them, but that is the legal
situation, AIUI.

Of course, this doesn't provide any excuse to treat customers poorly.






--

..andy

"Blueyonder" wrote in message
k...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 04 Dec 2005 12:43:43 GMT, (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:


Does it not start once it is rung through the till?

No, the is still the invitation part. The price on the till may
be different to the price on the shelf. They may be guilty
of a miss-pricing offence if this is the case but that is
still legally the price at which the invitation is made.

If you come up with the payment, then I can't see how they can refuse to
let you take the goods away.

Because established law says that they can.

They may argue that the notes are forged, and if they are then you are in
trouble (i.e. you have broken the contract). However once you have handed
those notes over, and they are valid and legal, then that door is yours,
surely, otherwise B&Q are just changing their mind after you have bought
the thing. Just run for it, door under arm! ;-)

I don't suggest that you try it

tim

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:39:50 +0000 (UTC), "Grumpy owd man"
wrote:

Really funny to see dozens of people holding their notes up
to the light...try it!

Ever had pound coins in change from a shop in Liverpool? I take a
penknife to every one and hand back the lead ones.

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:36:08 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:29:31 GMT, "Blueyonder"
wrote:


"tim (moved to sweden)" wrote in message
Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that we have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

-- JJ



That is not correct.

The display of goods on the shelf is an invitation to treat only.

True

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

Not exactly, the contract has already been made before the customer
offers the cash. The customer only has to bring the article for sale
to the till, to be deemed to have made an offer of payment (assuming
they don't say something like "Can you tell me how much this is ?")

If the assistant rings the article up on the till and says "That will
be £10, please", this is deemed acceptance of the offer and a contract
is formed.

In theory, the customer now *has* to pay for the goods and the store
*has* to accept legal tender (Coins or notes (except for Bank of
England notes outside England and similar for BOS notes etc.) The only
items of legal tender valid throughout the UK are £1 and £2 coins).

http://www.consumereducation.org.uk/...lrights/03.htm

Look at the case between Boots and the PSGB (1953)

http://www.accaglobal.com/publicatio...countant/36664


You can't insist on buying something either. The shop is completely
within its rights to refuse.

Absolutely, *but* they can't refuse once the article has been rung up
on the till since they will have accepted your offer.

They are also within their rights to ask
for legal tender as opposed to a credit card for example.

Yes, but, in theory, if you offer legal tender in payment and the shop
decline to accept it after they've rung up the sale, you can walk out
of the shop with the goods.

I don't recommend trying it though as the staff in most shops haven't
the foggiest idea about the law and you might find yourself rugby
tackled if you did so. :-)


This is not to say that following this whole line is commercially a
good idea, since in practice there would be no point in displaying the
goods if they didn't want to sell them, but that is the legal
situation, AIUI.

Of course, this doesn't provide any excuse to treat customers poorly.

True

Cheers,

John

The message
from "Blueyonder" contains these words:

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that
we have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

AIUI the price is the invitation to offer and the proffered cash the offer.

--
Roger Chapman

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Will Hay" writes:
Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I
tried
to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road)
they
rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head
watermark
was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from
told
me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
humiliation of their customers is the final straw.

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

Legal tender only has meaning in the context of payment of a debt and then
it only means that, if you offer the exact amount of the debt in legal
tender, you cannot be sued for non-payment of the debt if the other person
refuses payment in that form. It has no meaning in day-to-day transactions,
which are a negotiated agreement between vendor and buyer. If the vendor
does not want to accept a particular mode of payment, for example, any pound
coin with a Welsh symbol on the obverse, that is entirely up to the vendor
and taking the goods after payment has been refused would be theft.

Colin Bignell

...
So the staff will now be acting to the letter of their new instruction
rejecting lots of legitimate notes for even minor faults thereby leading
to lots of complaints and maybe even a turndown in takings. Thus leading
to even higher management bollocking the middle management and so taking
pressure off the staff and maybe leading them being provided with decent
quality counterfit detection equipment.

The staff also probably have duff notes taken out of their wages in many of
these kinds of stores. Certainly happens at Wilkinsons, where the staff
become very reluctant to accept anything more than a tenner, just in case.

-- JJ

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:29:31 GMT, "Blueyonder"
wrote:


"tim (moved to sweden)" wrote in message

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the
cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the
cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that we
have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

-- JJ



That is not correct.

The display of goods on the shelf is an invitation to treat only.

No argument there - I'm not trying to say the price on the shelf means
anything.

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

This I'm not so sure about. The payment is the 'consideration', which is
separate from the offer and acceptance. The customer offers to take the
goods for an appropriate payment, and the store accepts that offer by
agreeing to it. At no point yet has any cash changed hands, been seen, or
payment method been agreed (except perhaps implied in the store's standard
terms and conditions of payment, which probably states somewhere something
like "only cash that meets our stringent tests of authenticity can be
accepted").

http://www.consumereducation.org.uk/...lrights/03.htm

Look at the case between Boots and the PSGB (1953)

http://www.accaglobal.com/publicatio...countant/36664

From what I can see, those documents agree with what I've said. The customer
took the doors to the counter, said "I want to buy these at the marked price
please", B&Q rang it through the till and said "okay - that will be £10
please". According to those docs, the offer has been made by the customer
and accepted by the store.

You can't insist on buying something either. The shop is completely
within its rights to refuse. They are also within their rights to ask
for legal tender as opposed to a credit card for example.

But this shop didn't refuse to sell it - they accepted the offer of a sale.
It was only after the cash was handed over (long after the contract was
agreed) that they changed their mind, or more accurately, they refused to
accept the cash handed over as acceptable tender. If the customer was unable
to provide that 'consideration' then it would be a different matter, but it
seems the customer was certainly able and willing to pay.

Whether the cash was real or fake, is always up for argument, so the store
can always claim that in not being able to prove the cash was genuine, the
customer was not able to meet their part of the contract.

In the end though, you would think customer relations would be a good reason
for B&Q to take a few risks, wouldn't you?

-- JJ

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:30:43 GMT,it is alleged that "Blueyonder"
spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


...
So the staff will now be acting to the letter of their new instruction
rejecting lots of legitimate notes for even minor faults thereby leading
to lots of complaints and maybe even a turndown in takings. Thus leading
to even higher management bollocking the middle management and so taking
pressure off the staff and maybe leading them being provided with decent
quality counterfit detection equipment.

The staff also probably have duff notes taken out of their wages in many of
these kinds of stores. Certainly happens at Wilkinsons, where the staff
become very reluctant to accept anything more than a tenner, just in case.

-- JJ


Is that kind of thing even *legal*? Surely it's the business that's in
posession of the duff notes, not the employee.

Silly me, I assumed workers had rights grin

Probably should have asked this in uk.legal, but legalspeek tends to
upset me when they try to redefine English words and phrases to mean
something totally different. Kind of like redefining 'competent
person' to mean something other than 'person who is competent'.


--
Whenever people say "we mustn't be sentimental", you can take it
they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, "we must
be realistic", they mean they are going to make money out of it.
- Brigid Brophy

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:33:41 GMT, "Blueyonder"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:29:31 GMT, "Blueyonder"
wrote:


"tim (moved to sweden)" wrote in message

Makes me wonder -- IANAL, but if you offered valid legal tender for
the goods, I rather suspect they would find it very difficult to
prosecute you if you just walked off with them.

They'd find it very easy.

You've made an offer, they have rejected it.

They have no obligation to accept any form of payment
before an acceptance of offer.

I don't think so. You have not made them an offer by giving them the
cash -
the offer has already been made by B&Q to let you have the items for
appropriate renumeration. You have accepted their offer by giving the
cash.
It's very simple:

B&Q: I will offer you this door for £10
You: I accept that offer. Here is ten pound.
B&Q: Err, we don't like the colour of your money.
You: Tough. It is valid and legal cash and you must take it now that we
have
accepted your offer.
B&Q: I've changed my mind...
You: You should have done that before I gave you the cash that we agreed.

-- JJ



That is not correct.

The display of goods on the shelf is an invitation to treat only.

No argument there - I'm not trying to say the price on the shelf means
anything.

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

This I'm not so sure about. The payment is the 'consideration', which is
separate from the offer and acceptance. The customer offers to take the
goods for an appropriate payment, and the store accepts that offer by
agreeing to it. At no point yet has any cash changed hands, been seen, or
payment method been agreed (except perhaps implied in the store's standard
terms and conditions of payment, which probably states somewhere something
like "only cash that meets our stringent tests of authenticity can be
accepted").

OK.

So the sequence is

- invitation to treat
- customer makes offer
- store accepts offer
- customer attempts to pay but store considers payment invalid.

That's not quite what you said at the outset, but the point is subtle
in practical terms.


http://www.consumereducation.org.uk/...lrights/03.htm

Look at the case between Boots and the PSGB (1953)

http://www.accaglobal.com/publicatio...countant/36664

From what I can see, those documents agree with what I've said. The customer
took the doors to the counter, said "I want to buy these at the marked price
please", B&Q rang it through the till and said "okay - that will be £10
please". According to those docs, the offer has been made by the customer
and accepted by the store.

Well not quite. The issue at hand in the Boots case was that what
one party deemed to be an offer (the goods being on display) was not
an offer, it was an invitation to the customer to make an offer.
Not the same.



You can't insist on buying something either. The shop is completely
within its rights to refuse. They are also within their rights to ask
for legal tender as opposed to a credit card for example.

But this shop didn't refuse to sell it - they accepted the offer of a sale.

Yes, I know. I was simply making the point that a shop is not
required to accept an offer from the customer.

It was only after the cash was handed over (long after the contract was
agreed) that they changed their mind, or more accurately, they refused to
accept the cash handed over as acceptable tender. If the customer was unable
to provide that 'consideration' then it would be a different matter, but it
seems the customer was certainly able and willing to pay.

So the dispute was whether the store considered the form of payment to
be genuine.



Whether the cash was real or fake, is always up for argument, so the store
can always claim that in not being able to prove the cash was genuine, the
customer was not able to meet their part of the contract.

Which leaves everybody nowhere.




In the end though, you would think customer relations would be a good reason
for B&Q to take a few risks, wouldn't you?

You would, but not the people on the till at a few pounds an hour.


--

..andy

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:21:58 GMT someone who may be John Anderton
wrote this:-

Yes, but, in theory, if you offer legal tender in payment and the shop
decline to accept it after they've rung up the sale, you can walk out
of the shop with the goods.

I don't recommend trying it though as the staff in most shops haven't
the foggiest idea about the law and you might find yourself rugby
tackled if you did so. :-)

Even better. The shop staff have now used threatening words and
behaviour towards the customer. They have also assaulted the
customer.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:36:08 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

So, shops don't offer goods. Fascinating.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:39:50 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Grumpy
owd man" wrote this:-

When they give you your change, hold every note up to the light and
reject any that you do not like. Mention in a loud voice why you are
doing it and suggest all others in the queue do the same!

Taking out a "counterfeit detector" pen and testing every note in
one's change tends to make the point quite well.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:31:30 +0000, Dave Fawthrop
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 10:56:52 -0000, "Will Hay"
wrote:

| Don't know if anyone else has had this experience recently but when I tried
| to buy some doors recently from my local B&Q in Leeds(On the ring road) they
| rejected some of the £20 notes I offered because the Queen's Head watermark
| was not dead centre in it's circle! The bank where I got the money from told
| me that the notes were absolutely genuine. While I was at B&Q I saw two
| other people having their notes rejected. If I needed any additional
| incentive not to shop at B&Q apart from the rip-off prices, this cavalier
| humiliation of their customers is the final straw.
|
| P.S. does anyone know who the MD of B&Q is - I intend to let them know in no
| uncertain terms what I think of this practice.

There are lots of very good forged 20 pound notes in circulation, B&Q
are just being careful. Best stop accepting 20 pound notes until
things clear up.

Two locla charity shops got "given" fake £20s on the same day - which
means neither take £20s any more.
People are mostly understanding and pop along to one of the other
local shops to break into their note.

--
Promotional codes, discounts, money off
http://www.promotionalcode.co.uk/
http://www.moneyoffvouchers.co.uk

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:08:37 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 16:36:08 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

The offer is made by the customer when he takes the goods to the till
and offers payment.

So, shops don't offer goods. Fascinating.

No they don't. Read the legal references.

Most people make the mistake of not doing so.


--

..andy

David Hansen wrote:
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 15:39:50 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be "Grumpy
owd man" wrote this:-

When they give you your change, hold every note up to the light and
reject any that you do not like. Mention in a loud voice why you are
doing it and suggest all others in the queue do the same!

Taking out a "counterfeit detector" pen and testing every note in
one's change tends to make the point quite well.

And if you done that whilst I was behind you in the Q i'd tell you to go
and do it somewhere else or words to that effect.
--
Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:29:07 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

So, shops don't offer goods. Fascinating.

No they don't.

Fascinating.

Read the legal references.

Two lawyers, three opinions.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 21:22:18 GMT someone who may be "The3rd Earl Of
Derby" wrote this:-

Taking out a "counterfeit detector" pen and testing every note in
one's change tends to make the point quite well.

And if you done that whilst I was behind you in the Q i'd tell you to go
and do it somewhere else or words to that effect.

Feel free to do so. Threatening words with many witnesses.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Blueyonder" wrote in message
k...

... If you come up with the payment, then I can't see how they can refuse
to let you take the goods away. ...

They can because there is no obligation on them to accept any form of
payment, including cash. If they choose not to take your money, then no
contract exists and the goods are not yours to take away.

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:40:22 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:


"Blueyonder" wrote in message
. uk...

... If you come up with the payment, then I can't see how they can refuse
to let you take the goods away. ...

They can because there is no obligation on them to accept any form of
payment, including cash.

There is if they have entered into a contract to provide goods (e.g. a
door) in exchange for, say, £50. Failure to provide you with the door
when you try to give them £50 is a breach of that contract.

If they choose not to take your money, then no
contract exists

No, the contract is in place *before* you give them any money. If they
decide not to ring up the sale *then* no contract exists.

Giving them money merely fulfills your side of the contract, which has
already been implicitly agreed by you taking the door to the checkout
and them ringing up the purchase.

and the goods are not yours to take away.

Cheers,

John

"John Anderton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 23:40:22 -0000, "nightjar" nightjar@insert my
surname here.uk.com wrote:


"Blueyonder" wrote in message
.uk...

... If you come up with the payment, then I can't see how they can
refuse
to let you take the goods away. ...

They can because there is no obligation on them to accept any form of
payment, including cash.

There is if they have entered into a contract to provide goods (e.g. a
door) in exchange for, say, £50. Failure to provide you with the door
when you try to give them £50 is a breach of that contract.

If they choose not to take your money, then no
contract exists

No, the contract is in place *before* you give them any money. If they
decide not to ring up the sale *then* no contract exists.

Giving them money merely fulfills your side of the contract, which has
already been implicitly agreed by you taking the door to the checkout
and them ringing up the purchase.

I am not convinced that a contract exists until all terms are agreed,
including the method of payment. However, even taking what you say to be
correct, I do not see that the seller has entered into a contract to accept
cash or not to reject any particular form of cash. There are notices at the
tills showing what credit and debit cards are accepted, which I am sure do
constitute an offer to accept those as a form of payment, but I cannot
recall any notices at B&Q stating that they will accept payment by cash.

Colin Bignell

In article , Andy Dingley
writes

I take a
penknife to every one and hand back the lead ones.

If you end up with one or two in your pocket anyway, the tunnel toll
booths usually accept them.