"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:15:47 +0000, Matt wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:18:42 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"

A Califorinan company has installed a
charging point and larger Lith Ion batteries and getting 120mph (US)

A 4 pack of 40 litre AA Duracells please.


Again drivel is probably randomly correct in this instance.

Our resident snot is coming out with the snides again.now.

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Moist people rely on the powers that be to determine the technology we use.
They actually do care, but think it is not there because of legitimate
reasons. In really that is not the case.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Electric cars are
vastly superior to petrol in maintenance costs. They require no
transmissions, no cooling systems, no oil changes, and with periodic battery
replacements, will last forever. Then the ride: smooth, silent, vibration
free. That alone is a great environmental plus.

What is the cost of the battery replacement? What is the environmental
impact of replacing these batteries?

With regard to crashes - the rescue services have problems with hyrbid
vehicles as often very high current cables are run through the bodywork,
making cutting people out very difficult, as they cannot just cut
anywhere as they currently can.

D

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Electric cars are
vastly superior to petrol in maintenance costs. They require no
transmissions, no cooling systems, no oil changes, and with periodic
battery
replacements, will last forever. Then the ride: smooth, silent,
vibration
free. That alone is a great environmental plus.

What is the cost of the battery replacement? What is the environmental
impact of replacing these batteries?

New batteries are made of plastic. They also last a long time.

With regard to crashes - the rescue services
have problems with hyrbid vehicles as often
very high current cables are run through the bodywork,
making cutting people out very difficult, as they cannot just cut
anywhere as they currently can.

Then they just disable the battery by cutting the cable.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ever wondered why even the most expensive cars still use lead acid?

Because its cheap and good enough.
To staert the engine.

Even on an expensive sports car where they go to all sorts of lengths to
save weight? And then there's the problem that many of these 'new'
batteries simply don't work at low temperatures. Fine in California, but
not in whole chunks of the rest of the world...

Ever wondered why the most exoensive cars are still made of steel, when a
real performance car is made of alumnium, titanium, and carbon fibre,.

Yup. Yuu guessed it BECAUSE ITS CHEAP, AND GOOD ENOUGH.

There are plenty of newer expensive cars making much use of aluminium etc.
Even Jaguar. ;-) They've been somewhat of a pioneer in this. The snag is
it makes repair methods extremely expensive which in turn will push up
insurance premiums.

--
*What happens when none of your bees wax? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:45:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ever wondered why even the most expensive cars still use lead acid?

Because its cheap and good enough.
To staert the engine.

Even on an expensive sports car where they go to all sorts of lengths to
save weight? And then there's the problem that many of these 'new'
batteries simply don't work at low temperatures. Fine in California, but
not in whole chunks of the rest of the world...

I don't think yiou apprecaute how teh car manufacturing business works
Dave.

It is not hallowed ground of hitech development

It is seedy men in suits in te marketing and accounts departments.

Every component is costed and every component has its function.

Cost benefit analysis to save e.g. a 30lb in battery weight at the expense
of making te battery not a 70 quid item that can be sourced anywhere, but a
700 quid item that has to be sourced from teh manufacture, is not as
advantagous as e.g. replacing all the bodywork with aluminium. And saving
half a ton...

The world is full of better mousetraps, but the auto industry is not going
to tool up to produce them if it means tearing down a whole plant and
re-writing every manual.

Its teh same in any volume situation. I beleive fir example that no LCD
manufacturer has ye been able to amortise their profits on LCDs against te
costs of tehe producxtion line: If a better technology than LCD were to
come along, those boys would lose their investments in LCD plant. The best
they can hope for is they can spit them out cheaper than the new technology
for long enough to reoup the investment.




Ever wondered why the most exoensive cars are still made of steel, when a
real performance car is made of alumnium, titanium, and carbon fibre,.

Yup. Yuu guessed it BECAUSE ITS CHEAP, AND GOOD ENOUGH.

There are plenty of newer expensive cars making much use of aluminium etc.
Even Jaguar. ;-) They've been somewhat of a pioneer in this. The snag is
it makes repair methods extremely expensive which in turn will push up
insurance premiums.

I know. Ive seen them.

All I am syaing is that e.g. jaguar built D types out of aluminium in te
50's. Its taken them 50 years to get it in to prodution...Not becasue it
wasn't possible, or better, but because steel was CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH

I cannot stres this enough. I have been a practicing design engineer my
whole working life, and that pharse is engraved on my heart.

You A:LWAYS pick what is CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH until the specs change eough
so that its no lonegr GOOD ENOUGH.

Fuels costs now dictate that Jaguar needs to drop its vehicle weights to
maintian its other qualities.

Jaguar also uses double wisbone front suspension on the big models. Always
have, because its necessary to get ride and handling qualities associated
with the marque.

Ford has used Mc Phersons for years, because they are CHEAP and GOOD
ENOUGH. Not because they are BEST.

In terms of car starters, lead acid are CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH

In terms of a decent propulsion system, they are CHEAP but NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

LIPOS are EXPENSIVE but GOOD ENOUGH.

Got it yet?

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:18:04 -0000, nightjar wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Colin Bignell

Most people don';t care anything about te car they drive.


I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to care about
producing cars that people will buy.

And to those amongst us who do view the current use of fossil fuel with
alarm, nit just because og global warmnming, but balso because of
uncertainty of supply.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:23:02 +0000, David Hearn wrote:

Doctor Drivel wrote:
Electric cars are
vastly superior to petrol in maintenance costs. They require no
transmissions, no cooling systems, no oil changes, and with periodic battery
replacements, will last forever. Then the ride: smooth, silent, vibration
free. That alone is a great environmental plus.

What is the cost of the battery replacement?

At the moment, vast

What is the environmental
impact of replacing these batteries?

Not vast. FAR nicer than batteries with lead or cadmium in them.

The main components of li-ion batteries are aluminium and carbon
electrodes, and a lithium salt. Lithium salts comprise a huge amount of
the earths crust and ecosystem, and are stable and inert. Calcium
carbonate, soueum carbonate, lithium carbonate. Not exactly a set of words
to isnpire panic in the eco-geeks are they?



Ther eare some organic electiolytes in their as well. Nothing too exciting.



With regard to crashes - the rescue services have problems with hyrbid
vehicles as often very high current cables are run through the bodywork,
making cutting people out very difficult, as they cannot just cut
anywhere as they currently can.


That is certainly an issue.

I have considerd that, and think that teh wy to go is a modular power pack,
with every module having some electronics on it to isolarte it..and
probably carsh sensors on each one that essentially make the thing dead
outside of its internals.

..Ive used tehse cells extensivley, and they CAN go up on flames. The
electrolytes fir ukltra high discharge are fairly flammable.

Thigs get better when a somewhat lower discharge rate cell is specified.
These are not so explosive.

Les than petrol perhaps.



You cannot cut through a full tank of petrol either...

D

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:45:40 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) through a
haze of senile flatulence wrote:

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Ever wondered why even the most expensive cars still use lead acid?

Because its cheap and good enough.
To staert the engine.

Even on an expensive sports car where they go to all sorts of lengths to
save weight? And then there's the problem that many of these 'new'
batteries simply don't work at low temperatures. Fine in California, but
not in whole chunks of the rest of the world...

I don't think yiou apprecaute how teh car manufacturing business works
Dave.

It is not hallowed ground of hitech development

It is seedy men in suits in te marketing and accounts departments.

Every component is costed and every component has its function.

Cost benefit analysis to save e.g. a 30lb in battery weight at the expense
of making te battery not a 70 quid item that can be sourced anywhere, but
a
700 quid item that has to be sourced from teh manufacture, is not as
advantagous as e.g. replacing all the bodywork with aluminium. And saving
half a ton...

The world is full of better mousetraps, but the auto industry is not going
to tool up to produce them if it means tearing down a whole plant and
re-writing every manual.

Its teh same in any volume situation. I beleive fir example that no LCD
manufacturer has ye been able to amortise their profits on LCDs against te
costs of tehe producxtion line: If a better technology than LCD were to
come along, those boys would lose their investments in LCD plant. The best
they can hope for is they can spit them out cheaper than the new
technology
for long enough to reoup the investment.




Ever wondered why the most exoensive cars are still made of steel, when
a
real performance car is made of alumnium, titanium, and carbon fibre,.

Yup. Yuu guessed it BECAUSE ITS CHEAP, AND GOOD ENOUGH.

There are plenty of newer expensive cars making much use of aluminium
etc.
Even Jaguar. ;-) They've been somewhat of a pioneer in this. The snag is
it makes repair methods extremely expensive which in turn will push up
insurance premiums.

I know. Ive seen them.

All I am syaing is that e.g. jaguar built D types out of aluminium in te
50's. Its taken them 50 years to get it in to prodution...Not becasue it
wasn't possible, or better, but because steel was CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH

I cannot stres this enough. I have been a practicing design engineer my
whole working life, and that pharse is engraved on my heart.

You A:LWAYS pick what is CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH until the specs change
eough
so that its no lonegr GOOD ENOUGH.

Fuels costs now dictate that Jaguar needs to drop its vehicle weights to
maintian its other qualities.

Jaguar also uses double wisbone front suspension on the big models. Always
have, because its necessary to get ride and handling qualities associated
with the marque.

Ford has used Mc Phersons for years, because they are CHEAP and GOOD
ENOUGH. Not because they are BEST.

In terms of car starters, lead acid are CHEAP and GOOD ENOUGH

In terms of a decent propulsion system, they are CHEAP but NOT GOOD
ENOUGH.

LIPOS are EXPENSIVE but GOOD ENOUGH.

Got it yet?

Of course Richard hasn't. Just read what he writes.

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:46:12 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Lord Hall, so why would you keep the heater on in an electric car in the
summer?

I'm not Lord Hall. I'd like air conditioning, but in one of your
souped up milk floats its not really a practical proposition is it?

--

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:57:34 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Steel is not good enough. It is heavy. When energy becomes more expensive
steel will be dropped.

I thnk you will find that from steel is extremely cheap to process
compared to aluminium.


--

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:57:34 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Steel is not good enough. It is heavy. When energy becomes more
expensive
steel will be dropped.

I thnk you will find that from steel is extremely cheap to process
compared to aluminium.

The point is that it is not good enough.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:02:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Same aplies to any car. You don;t need more than 500w or so to heat a car.

Heating it for an hour is thes ame fuel used as travelling two miles.

The output from a typical A/B class car heater is in the order of
5-10kW although that output is not going to be needed it is sometimes
required for extended periods in winter conditions.


--

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Cars contain absolutely no thermal insulation

You're talking ****e again. Haven't you noticed how much colder your
little van is when you're doing the deliveries?

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
What is the cost of the battery replacement? What is the environmental
impact of replacing these batteries?

New batteries are made of plastic. They also last a long time.

Is that as long as a tank of petrol? Or as long as the average IC engine?
Or just a piece of string?

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Even on an expensive sports car where they go to all sorts of lengths to
save weight? And then there's the problem that many of these 'new'
batteries simply don't work at low temperatures. Fine in California, but
not in whole chunks of the rest of the world...

I don't think yiou apprecaute how teh car manufacturing business works
Dave.

It is not hallowed ground of hitech development

It is seedy men in suits in te marketing and accounts departments.

Every component is costed and every component has its function.

So you can rule out electric cars?

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Matt wrote:
Same aplies to any car. You don;t need more than 500w or so to heat a
car.

Heating it for an hour is thes ame fuel used as travelling two miles.

The output from a typical A/B class car heater is in the order of
5-10kW although that output is not going to be needed it is sometimes
required for extended periods in winter conditions.

And to warm up the car quickly on a cold day. 500 watts would take longer
than most journeys.

--
*Why is it that rain drops but snow falls?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Matt" aka Lord Hall wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:02:51 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Same aplies to any car. You don;t need more than 500w or so to heat a
car.

Heating it for an hour is thes ame fuel used as travelling two miles.

The output from a typical A/B class car heater is in the order of
5-10kW although that output is not going to be needed it is sometimes
required for extended periods in winter conditions.

The full output is only required for a short time. Even in - 5C temps, I
always have to turn a car heater down.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Cars contain absolutely no thermal insulation

You're

** snip more senility **

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

What is the cost of the battery replacement?
What is the environmental
impact of replacing these batteries?

New batteries are made of plastic. They also last a long time.

Is that as long

** snip more babble and senility **

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29 Nov 2005 14:57:36 -0800, wrote:

You said fuel economy was comparable, but you neglected the main route
of fuel consumption: not road fuel, but the fuel used in production. To
explain. Why do the batteries cost so much? The answer is because it
takes a huge amount of energy to get them produced. (That includes
production of the materials the batteries are made from.)

That is , in this case, simply not true.

While its not
exact, cost is a rough guide to energy use. If something takes me 1000
barrels of oil and 6 months to make, its gonna cost. The 6 months means
6 months of supporting a human being, and that comes down to energy. We
need money to buy energy firectly, and money to buy things that took
energy to produce, eg food, clothes, etc etc.


That is only true in mature technologies domianated by energy costs. This
is not true of lithium batteries. The materialsl - lithium salts - are not
especially energy intensive to make - no more so thatn the steel that car
bodies are made from, or the aluminium the engines are made from.

The batteries are expensive because mass production techniques have not
been applied to them: They are currently moderate vloume items with large
investments in R & D and factory tooling to pay back.

You say theyre expensive not because of energy use, but because of R&D,
the need to tool up anew, and the fact that theyre produced on a small
scale. Well, all these things mean energy use. R&D equals energy use,
tooling up equals energy use, and smal scale production equals not
getting the efficiencies of mass production, equals greater energy use
per item produced.

When things are expensive it simply means they need a lot of our
resources to get them. Everything is available, its all a question of
what does it take to get it. And the reality is it currently takes huge
expenditures of human and fossil energy to get Lithium batteries. All
goods come down to energy: all raw materials are available, just a
question of energy to get them. Both directly in terms of digging them
up and processing them, and indirectly in terms of the energy needed to
run the humans that do it, the legal/political games needed, and so on.

If Li batteries really didnt need much to produce, yet were temporarily
selling at a high price, capitalists would be diving into Li battery
production, and prices would drop heavily and quickly.


In short, the whole electric car system is energy hungry. It thus has
nothing to offer over fossils.

Its not. You are starying from a conclusion and using false data to
rationalise facts which are untrue.

Those batteries could cost no more than a typical engine to produce. In
dollars or in energy.

Maybe youre right in that they could, but today they dont, and its cost
today that determines what happens in the few years ahead. If Li-ions
use increases dramatically, I've no idea to what price point they will
fall. But I'm not sure we can assume their use will spread far and
wide, thus causing a major price drop: do you have a reason to believe
they'll become cheaper than. NiCds, lead acids, etc? If not, those
other technologies will continue to dominate many battery market
sectors.


Its very hard to beat fossil fuel because it is so very available, in
such huge quantities. Its cost is therefore relatively low.

It won't be for that much longer

fossils will be around for decades yet. When deeply buried oil cost too
much to extract, we'll move on to tar sands. We'll also have gotten TDP
up and running by then, which will add to the oil stream. And cars will
be doing more mpg, and many of our processes will be more energy
efficient. And as oil prices go up, presently unexploited reserves will
begin to come online. ISTR China having lots underground, and more gets
discovered as the years go by. And as prices increase, various
non-mainstream technologies will become more popular too.


- and anyway this particular thread is
not about fuel efficiency of electrical cars per se, Its about practicality
of them.

which boils down to cost, which ultimately boils down to energy use

I already showed that theyt are in fuel terms similar to a diesel
overall if diesel is what you burn at the power station. That is not where
I am coming from.

A purchase cost of 3 mill does not make them similar in terms of energy
use. Road fuel use may be comparable, but with EVs that is the least of
one's worries.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 01:19:06 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Until you want to heat the car, and have more than two people in it.

Electric motors give off heat. This can be harnessed.

How much heat does the average car heater give out on full?
How much insulation do you have on a weight saving electric design?
When will you think these things through rather than blindly accepting
wild claims in ads?

Well I'll amswer what Drivel can't.

At say 250Wh per mile and an average speed of 60miles an hour, the actual
power input is 15KW. Or 20bhp. Which sounds about right.At 90% efficiency
you are losing 1.5KW. More than enough to heat the car IF you could get the
heat from the motors to the car interior.

Its possible to wind the motirs not with wire, but with small bore copper
tube and pass coolant thriugh them, but its complex and makes the motors
larger and higher resistance (less efficient).

So its feasiable, but I don;t think its necessarily practicable. I think it
might increase the motor losses anway - its probably better to simply take
an electrical heat pump and use it to heat or cool the interior depending
on whether ambient is above or below desired heat levels.

Becasue motor heat output is not that huge, and falls away to nowt at
'idle'

or perhaps add a shroud over 2 motors, and air duct from motor to
interior. Forward movement then causes warm to be blown into the
interior. A backup fan is needed during short stops, and electric
heating for longer stops. All easy to control automatically.


NT

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:45:15 GMT, Roger wrote:

With hub mounted electric motors recovery of any waste heat would be a
problem and unsprung weight is traditionally considered undesirable so
why are hub motors the obvious choice?

They aren't that heavy. I am not decided as to whether they are better or
worse.

To an extend its possible to integrate them with the wheel rims. IN a
typical multipole 3 phase motor the magnets are arranged inside a drum
whilst the stator comprises a bunch of interlinked coils. The chief weight
is the magnets on the rim, and the actual ironwork of the stator.

This is a simple arrangement..and easily allows one motor per wheel which
provides excellent traction..whether or not a more complce and heavy system
with a centrally mounted motor and shafts and maybe a reduction gear -
probably more efficient in terms of the motor - is worth the added weight
and complexity - is a moot point.

Motors in the wheels mean considerable unsprung weight in the wheels.
This in turn means much poorer road holding. Its fine for city buses,
but used as a general runaround youre going to sacrifice a good bit of
road handling ability. It'll be like going from a car to a commercial
in terms of handling / roadholding.

Not that thats really a big problem, but public perception might be,
after being used to cars of such high performance today. People will
need to go back to the once universal ways of driving cars to their
limits at normal travel speeds much of the time. Those without the
brain to do that, and there are certainly some, will come acropper from
their failure, so in short, poorer handling equals lower safety levels
and higher death rates specific to your new design.


NT

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:18:04 -0000, nightjar wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Colin Bignell

Most people don';t care anything about te car they drive.


I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to care
about
producing cars that people will buy.

They also have to take into account the fact that most customers don't care
enough to want to buy electric cars. I suspect that fuel cell cars will
prove to be be more attractive. It is a lot quicker to recharge a gas
cylinder than it is to recharge batteries.

Colin Bignell

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:18:04 -0000, nightjar wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Colin Bignell

Most people don';t care anything about te car they drive.


I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to care
about
producing cars that people will buy.

To their eyes, their job is to make as much money as possible. Socially
irresponsible.

They also have to take into account the fact that most customers don't
care
enough to want to buy electric cars.

Most would buy one if they had the chance, having the range and speed. Once
they experience the smoothness and silence that wins them over. People all
like eco things. If there are two products, both the same price, one eco
one not, they will go for the eco product.

I suspect that fuel cell cars will
prove to be be more attractive. It is a lot quicker to recharge a gas
cylinder than it is to recharge batteries.

Please read the thread and link given. Toshiba battey charges to 80% in 2
mins, 5 mins the lot.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to
care about producing cars that people will buy.

To their eyes, their job is to make as much money as possible.

Which means producing cars people want to buy. Which is why the Prius is a
commercial failure in the UK.

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through ahaze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to
care about producing cars that people will buy.

To their eyes, their job is to make as much money as possible.

Which means producing cars people
want to buy. Which is why the Prius is a
commercial failure in the UK.

Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again. A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Which means producing cars people
want to buy. Which is why the Prius is a
commercial failure in the UK.

Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again. A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list since the grant stopped. Apart from possibly
caused by the recent fire at the factory.

It's a commercial failure because they lose money on each car sold.

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Which means producing cars people
want to buy. Which is why the Prius is a
commercial failure in the UK.

Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again. A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list

** wanting list oh senile one **

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:18:04 -0000, nightjar wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Colin Bignell

Most people don';t care anything about te car they drive.


I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to care
about
producing cars that people will buy.

To their eyes, their job is to make as much money as possible. Socially
irresponsible.

They also have to take into account the fact that most customers don't
care
enough to want to buy electric cars.

Most would buy one if they had the chance, having the range and speed.

I seriously doubt that.

Once
they experience the smoothness and silence that wins them over.

You get smooth and silent with a good quality automatic car and they have
the additional advantage that the soundproofing stops tyre noise as well as
engine noise.

People all
like eco things. If there are two products, both the same price, one eco
one not, they will go for the eco product.

You do like using unsupported generalisations as if they were fact. My
original point was that I doubt that many people really care either way. I
would expect people to be more likely to buy on whether they like something
like the colour or the shape.

I suspect that fuel cell cars will
prove to be be more attractive. It is a lot quicker to recharge a gas
cylinder than it is to recharge batteries.

Please read the thread and link given. Toshiba battey charges to 80% in 2
mins, 5 mins the lot.

When did you last spend 5 minutes, or even 2 minutes, standing in a petrol
station filling up? Car fuel pumps normally delivery at 70 litres per
minute. That means that I probably spend about a minute filling mine from
about 1/4 full, but it has a large tank and, unless there is a queue to pay,
most people have had time to fill up, pay and get back in the car while I am
still filling up.

Colin Bignell

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:18:04 -0000, nightjar wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
.. .
...
Why aren't peole doing it?

I think two reasons
...

You missed out a third; most people really don't care.

Colin Bignell

Most people don';t care anything about te car they drive.


I was referring implicitly to car manufacturers, whose job IS to care
about
producing cars that people will buy.

To their eyes, their job is to make as much money as possible. Socially
irresponsible.

They also have to take into account the fact that most customers don't
care
enough to want to buy electric cars.

Most would buy one if they had the chance, having the range and speed.

I seriously doubt that.

They would. Quiet, smooth, highly reliable, buttons to service.

Once they experience the smoothness
and silence that wins them over.

You get smooth and silent with
a good quality automatic car

Nonsense. Get an electric car and the difference is marked. After 15 years
an electric car will still be quiet and smooth while ICs are rough.

and they have
the additional advantage that the
soundproofing stops tyre noise as well as
engine noise.

What are you on about? An electric doesn't need bolt on stuff to make it
quiet.

People all
like eco things. If there are two products, both the same price, one
eco
one not, they will go for the eco product.

You do like using unsupported generalisations
as if they were fact.

What you are saying is eco products are lies. Grow up.

My original point was that I doubt that
many people really care either way. I
would expect people to be more likely
to buy on whether they like something
like the colour or the shape.

Not so. If a car has a reputation of complexity and high service bills yet
was brilliant to look at people will not buy (Citroens come to mind,
although not deserved) .

I suspect that fuel cell cars will
prove to be be more attractive. It is a lot quicker to recharge a gas
cylinder than it is to recharge batteries.

Please read the thread and link given. Toshiba battey charges to 80% in
2
mins, 5 mins the lot.

When did you last spend 5 minutes,
or even 2 minutes, standing in a petrol
station filling up?

I wish it was that fast. 15 mins yesterday.

Car fuel pumps normally delivery at 70 litres

You really are childish and silly.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again. A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list

** wanting list oh senile one **

Given the Ford Focus sells more in one month than the total of UK Prius
sales there's no 'wanting list' either, dribble.

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You get smooth and silent with
a good quality automatic car

Nonsense. Get an electric car and the difference is marked. After 15
years an electric car will still be quiet and smooth while ICs are rough.

Do your engines go 'rough' after 15 years? Haven't you heard about
servicing?

Of course the cost of the three battery packs you'll have got through in
15 years would have bought several new engines...

and they have
the additional advantage that the
soundproofing stops tyre noise as well as
engine noise.

What are you on about? An electric doesn't need bolt on stuff to make it
quiet.

Sigh. Most of the noise on a decent modern car comes from the wheels - not
the engine. Of course your car is probably a Lada, so forget the last bit.

People all like eco things. If there are two products, both the
same price, one
eco
one not, they will go for the eco product.

You do like using unsupported generalisations as if they were fact.

What you are saying is eco products are lies. Grow up.

My original point was that I doubt that
many people really care either way. I
would expect people to be more likely
to buy on whether they like something
like the colour or the shape.

Not so. If a car has a reputation of complexity and high service bills
yet was brilliant to look at people will not buy (Citroens come to mind,
although not deserved) .

They've not been brilliant to look at for years. Ordinary, more like.

I suspect that fuel cell cars will
prove to be be more attractive. It is a lot quicker to recharge a gas
cylinder than it is to recharge batteries.

Please read the thread and link given. Toshiba battey charges to
80% in
2
mins, 5 mins the lot.

When did you last spend 5 minutes,
or even 2 minutes, standing in a petrol
station filling up?

I wish it was that fast. 15 mins yesterday.

It took you 15 minutes to fill a Prius? Good grief. Another reason not to
buy a 23 mpg car...

Car fuel pumps normally delivery at 70 litres

You really are childish and silly.

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

You get smooth and silent with
a good quality automatic car

Nonsense. Get an electric car and the difference is marked. After 15
years an electric car will still be quiet and smooth while ICs are
rough.

Do your engines go 'rough'
after 15 years? Haven't you heard about
servicing?

He clearly has a clue.


Of course the cost of the three battery packs you'll have got through in
15 years would have bought several new engines...

Probably no new batteries as they are guaranteed for 8 years, with expected
life of 12.

** snipe senility **

Too painful to go on any more with him.

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again.
A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list

** a waiting list, oh senile one **

Given the Ford

** snip more madman senility **

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:39:40 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again. A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list

** wanting list oh senile one **

Given the Ford Focus sells more in one month than the total of UK Prius
sales there's no 'wanting list' either, dribble.

And after 3 years the Focus would be worth more ..

Timmy

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:47:09 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


When did you last spend 5 minutes,
or even 2 minutes, standing in a petrol
station filling up?

I wish it was that fast. 15 mins yesterday.

It took you 15 minutes to fill a Prius? Good grief. Another reason not to
buy a 23 mpg car...

I think the US cars (possibly UK too?) have a 'bladder' in the fuel
tank and there have been problems with that too ..

Didn't we cover the 'issues' of roadside mains charging a big bank of
batteries in 5mins in previous threads .. we *still* don't have full
sized power stations at the back of petrol stations do we ..(even if
the batteries *could* take it)?

Timmy

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Of course the cost of the three battery packs you'll have got through
in 15 years would have bought several new engines...

Probably no new batteries as they are guaranteed for 8 years, with
expected life of 12.

In the UK? Proof, please.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 16:39:40 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
through a haze of senile flatulence wrote:

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Our resident senile idiot, who make many things up, is at it again.
A
commercial failure with a waiting list? My oh my, such senility.

There's no waiting list

** wanting list oh senile one **

Given the Ford Focus sells more in one month than the total of UK Prius
sales there's no 'wanting list' either, dribble.

And after 3 years the Focus would be worth more ..

Any data to back this wild allegation?

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Of course the cost of the three battery packs you'll have got through
in 15 years would have bought several new engines...

Probably no new batteries as they are guaranteed for 8 years, with
expected life of 12.

In the UK?

** snip senility **

Sad but true.