Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

"tfc715" wrote in message
...

Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

a neighbour has just put a loo in her kitchen with just the single door, I
queried the same thing (2 doors?)
she said the regs had changed and its ok
dunno if she fobbed me off on this one
--
Vass

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:25:45 +0100, tfc715
wrote:


Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

If you go to
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...ge/br0048.hcsp

you can have a look at the regulations.

It was never about fire anyhow - it was a hygiene thing.

--
Warning: Do not look directly into laser with remaining eye.

Don't you need building regs for adding additional toilets to the
existing sewer - I thought that I had seen this somewhere (perhaps a
local requirement?).

Cheers,
Mark

Geoffrey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:25:45 +0100, tfc715
wrote:

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth
No. It *was* real (specifically, there had to be "a ventilated space"
between them).

and there is certainly no such regulation in force now.

I think that is only true if the room with a loo has a sink as well (so
you aren't tempted to wash your sh****y hand in the kitchen sink).

As you say, this was always about hygiene, not ventilation.

tfc715 wrote:
Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like people are going off at a
tangent.
Are you saying that you will not have a back door when you convert your
porch?

Geoffrey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:25:45 +0100, tfc715
wrote:


Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

But this is irrelevant to the OPs question.

Read the post again and you'll see he's asking about whether he can
block up the external door in the porch and replace it with a window
for fire escape purposes, or does he have to retain the extra door?

MBQ

In article ,
Geoffrey wrote:
Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Yes - 'ventilated corridor'

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

Think now the regulations concentrate on the toilet - fume extraction and
a wash hand basin, etc.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19 Oct 2005 05:46:28 -0700, wrote:


Geoffrey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:25:45 +0100, tfc715
wrote:


Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

But this is irrelevant to the OPs question.

Read the post again and you'll see he's asking about whether he can
block up the external door in the porch and replace it with a window
for fire escape purposes, or does he have to retain the extra door?


That isn't what he asked. He said he'd been told he needed a second
door by a neighbour. From the phrasing it sounded like he assumed this
was for fire regulations but didn't know. He never mentioned blocking
up a door or even that there WAS an existing door. He asked if he
needed a second door. He doesn't.

BTW - does anyone actually know what a "back porch" is? I am guessing
it's some kind or lean-to/mini conservatory.


--
Warning: Do not look directly into laser with remaining eye.

On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:53:16 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Geoffrey wrote:
Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Yes - 'ventilated corridor'

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what
I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an
overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that
it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

Think now the regulations concentrate on the toilet - fume extraction and
a wash hand basin, etc.

No need to "think", the regulations are there for all to read.

--
Warning: Do not look directly into laser with remaining eye.

Geoffrey wrote:
On 19 Oct 2005 05:46:28 -0700, wrote:


Geoffrey wrote:
On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:25:45 +0100, tfc715
wrote:


Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use intoa
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Years ago I heard there was a regulation that there had to be 2 doors
between a toilet and any area used for the preparation of food and, in
fact, when we had a bathroom built on to the back of our house when I
was a kid, they did put a small lobby between the kitchen and
bathroom.

Apparantly this was a myth and there is certainly no such regulation
in force now.

But this is irrelevant to the OPs question.

Read the post again and you'll see he's asking about whether he can
block up the external door in the porch and replace it with a window
for fire escape purposes, or does he have to retain the extra door?


That isn't what he asked. He said he'd been told he needed a second
door by a neighbour. From the phrasing it sounded like he assumed this
was for fire regulations but didn't know. He never mentioned blocking
up a door or even that there WAS an existing door. He asked if he
needed a second door. He doesn't.

Read it again. In the context of a back porch, there will be an
external door. He was told he needs to keep this as a second door to
the house (in addition to the front/side door) as a means of escape.
Otherwise, why would he ask about a window being sufficient as a fire
escape? He's obviously not going to replace the door between the house
and the new bathroom with a window! He didn't even say that the porch
came off an area used for food prep so any suggestions of requiring a
second connecting door are even less relevant.

We'll have to agree to disagree until the OP clarifies his request.

MBQ

Grumps wrote:
tfc715 wrote:
Hallo there,
I´m consiedering converting the Back Porch, which we never use into a
second bathroom.
Some neigbour said that building regulations require me to have a
second door.
Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?
Thanks for your answers,
Erech

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like people are going off
at a tangent.
Are you saying that you will not have a back door when you convert
your porch?

I think you're right. The phrasing is not as clear as it might be, but there
you go. Perhaps the wording of the question should have been 'do I need to
KEEP the second door'.

FWIW my first house had only one door, mind you it was a back to back! A
friend of mine bricked up the back door on his 3 bed semi so he could fit a
better kitchen space, he had all the work approved by building control - but
it's about 12 years ago now, so the rules might have changed.

Dave

In message , Geoffrey
writes


BTW - does anyone actually know what a "back porch" is? I am guessing
it's some kind or lean-to/mini conservatory.

Errr, a porch on the back (o rmaybe side if that is where the 'back'
door is) of a house.
--
Chris French

Hall there,
im back online. Thanks for all the input so far and sorry for not stating my question more precisley.
The House I'm talking about is a cottage in the Scottisch Highlands.
At the Moment there are two doors leading to the outsinde.
One from the Kitchen / Diningroom, which is the door we use to go in and out.
The second door goes from the hall with the staircase, into the back porch, and then outside.
The back porch is a small strukture, about 2 by 4 meters which was added a long time ago, but which wasn't part of the original building.
When the house was built, this would habe beenn the front door. But we never use it.
Back to my question.
Are ther any regulations stopping me from closing of this door?
This would leave me with 1 door to get out of, in a case of Fire. (Plenty of big Windows though)
My neigbour said that there were regulations, and in a way it makes sense.
Also all the Houses in the area have a front and a back door.

Regards,
Erech

Is that so, or would a large window be sufficient as a fire escape?

Basically, in most cases yes.

---

2.8 Except for kitchens, all habitable rooms in the ground storey should
either:
open directly onto a hall leading to the entrance or other suitable exit; or
be provided with a window (or door) which complies with paragraph 2.11.

Emergency egress windows and external doors
2.11 Any window provided for emergency egress purposes and any external door
provided for escape should comply with the following conditions.
The window should have an unobstructed openable area that is at least 0.33m2
and at least 450mm high and 450mm wide (the route through the window may be
at an angle rather than straight through).The bottom of the openable area
should be not more than 1100mm above the floor.

---

This shows that there is no requirement for a 2nd main door, provided you
can meet the 2.8 requirement above. You will need the escape window in the
toilet, if it doesn't open directly onto the hall. It is sensible for 2.11
to apply to ALL rooms, not just those opening on to the hall, but this is
not a requirement.

Christian.

Yes, that's exactly it. But it´s actually the old front door I´d be closing of.
Same difference thought. 1 door left.

2.8 Except for kitchens, all habitable rooms in the ground storey should
either:
open directly onto a hall leading to the entrance or other suitable exit;
or
be provided with a window (or door) which complies with paragraph 2.11.

P.S. These are the English building regulations. Scotland may be different.

Christian.

"Geoffrey" wrote in message
...

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what
I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an
overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that
it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

It's academic now, but just to put this to bed, there was indeed such a
Regulation. It first appeared in 1966 when the first national Building
Regulations came into force. Quoting directly from the 1976 Building Regs,
P3(2):

"No sanitary accommodation shall open directly into :-
(a) a habitable room unless that room is used solely for sleeping or
dressing purposes; or
(b) a room used for kitchen or scullery purposes; or
(c) a room in which anyone is habitually employed in any manufacture, trade
or business.

This meant that there had to be 2 doors between a kitchen and WC, and the
simplest way to comply was to form a lobby. P3(4) states the ventilation
required within the sanitary accommodation (1/20th of the floor area or a
fan giving 3 air changes/hour) but there never was any requirement for the
lobby to be ventilated too. The idea was to form an air lock so that there
was never less than one door open, but it was idealistic and this rule was
dropped when they were re-drafted in 1984.

Peter

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:20:52 +0100, "Peter Taylor"
wrote:


"Geoffrey" wrote in message
.. .

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what
I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an
overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that
it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

It's academic now, but just to put this to bed, there was indeed such a
Regulation. It first appeared in 1966 when the first national Building
Regulations came into force. Quoting directly from the 1976 Building Regs,
P3(2):


...snip..

Interesting to know - I guess we didn't need the lobby then as the
bathroom was build in 1964

--
Warning: Do not look directly into laser with remaining eye.

In article ,
Geoffrey wrote:
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:20:52 +0100, "Peter Taylor"
wrote:


"Geoffrey" wrote in message
.. .

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what
I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an
overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that
it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

It's academic now, but just to put this to bed, there was indeed such a
Regulation. It first appeared in 1966 when the first national Building
Regulations came into force. Quoting directly from the 1976 Building Regs,
Interesting to know - I guess we didn't need the lobby then as the
bathroom was build in 1964

Not convinced. There was certainly some regulation (local?) in 1960 that
stated (or at least suggested) exactly the same. What was in place before
Building Regulations? Any bet that they were word for word copies of earlier
regulations?

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
Qercus magazine FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 www.finnybank.com
Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing

"Geoffrey" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 19:20:52 +0100, "Peter Taylor"
wrote:


"Geoffrey" wrote in message
. ..

There was no ventilation in the little lobby. Still isn't. From what
I've heard there never really was such a regulation, it was just an
overenthusiastic interpretation of what was actually written. Not that
it matters, it's clear now that no such space is required.

It's academic now, but just to put this to bed, there was indeed such a
Regulation. It first appeared in 1966 when the first national Building
Regulations came into force. Quoting directly from the 1976 Building
Regs,
P3(2):


..snip..

Interesting to know - I guess we didn't need the lobby then as the
bathroom was build in 1964

You probably did. In 1964 building work was governed by local Byelaws.
Most Local Authorities applied a standard set of rules but were free to make
their own variations if they wanted. The 1966 Building Regs were based on
these standard rules.

Thinking about all this takes me right back to my days at Tech College!

Owain wrote:
tfc715 wrote:

It is likely that it will be a job and a half to bring a "porch" up to
building standards for a habitable room in terms of insulation etc. You

Bathroom is not a 'habitable room'


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

Hi Christian,
thats exactly what I've been looking for.
Great, no problems there.
Two windows in the Bathroom, each 1 meter square.

If I may, I would like to follow up with another question,
which I'm now unsure about.
There are two bedrooms upstairs, each with a tiny window which not even a child could press throug.
The stairs are made of wood.
So if a fire starts in the hall, there is now escape....

I read the rest of the building regulations, but couldn't make out the relevant part.
Can you give me an hint?
Regard's
Erech

thats exactly what I've been looking for.

Do remember these are English regulations, not Scottish.

Two windows in the Bathroom, each 1 meter square.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure if bathrooms are habitable anyway, so they
might not even need escape windows.

which I'm now unsure about.
There are two bedrooms upstairs, each with a tiny window which not even
a child could press throug.
The stairs are made of wood.
So if a fire starts in the hall, there is now escape....

I read the rest of the building regulations, but couldn't make out the
relevant part.

2.7 Except for kitchens, all habitable rooms in the upper storey(s) of a
house served by only one stair should be provided with a window (or external
door) which complies with paragraph 2.11.

Note: A single window can be accepted to serve two rooms provided both rooms
have their own access to the stairs. A communicating door between the rooms
must be provided so that it is possible to gain access to the window without
passing through the stair enclosure.

Your two upstairs rooms with tiny opening windows would not be acceptable
under English building regulations if built today unless they each had a
communicating door with a separate adjacent room which had an escape window.

Christian.