In article ,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost writes:
Long tale of woe...

My mother's 14-month old boiler sprung a leak yesterday. The water
that came out was completely black. After finding a plumber out of
the Yellow Pages (Tesco Insurance's 24-hour emergency hotline, my
arse!), he said the leak is coming from the cast-iron heat exchanger.
He expressed surprise that the heat exchanger should spring a leak in
such a short period of time, and that, if the system had been flushed
properly, the water should be so black.

The boiler, an Ideal Classic FF340, was fitted as a replacement to an

Can't find any reference to that model on the web, so I don't
know what type it is.

original system. This was supposedly power-flushed by the installers,
but according to yesterday's plumber, this should have taken about 4
hours, whereas my mother reckons it was a lot less than that (mind
you, she is in her eighties and does get confused, so she's not a
reliable witness).

Further information that may or may not be relevant:
i) All the radiators are fitted with TRVs, I think there is a by-pass,
but it doesn't have any kind of flow valve on it. I fitted a room
thermostat as there wasn't one before, and told my mother to keep the
TRV in the same room fully open (replacing the TRV with a lockshield
valve would have required a round tuit, which wasn't available at the
time). My sister visited last week and turned the valve down.

You could just remove the TRV head, which would leave the valve
fully open.

ii) Since the boiler was installed, it's only been used full for about
three-four months. My mother went into hospital in early January, and
was there for six months. While she was away, apart from a couple of
weekends I stayed over, the thermostat was lowered to keep it ticking
over on frost protection. Last weekend was the first time it's been
used apart from hot water for 9 months.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?

I would say not, even if the system had no inhibitor. Radiators
are much thinner (unless also cast iron) and would corrode through
first. My parents had an Ideal Standard cast iron boiler for around
40 years, and it never had any inhibitor in it. It only got removed
because they wanted to switch to a smaller wall mounted boiler.
Even allowing for thinner castings nowadays, it's not going to
corrode through a modern one in 14 months IMHO.

2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?

System should either be vented or have a pressure relief valve.
I don't know if it's a low water volume boiler though.

3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?

Running with the boiler stat too low can cause condensing operation
in non-condensing boilers.

4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

Sounds to me like a manufacturing fault, but would need more
investigation to be sure.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
Hugo Nebula abuse@localhost writes:
Long tale of woe...

My mother's 14-month old boiler sprung a leak yesterday. The water
that came out was completely black. After finding a plumber out of
the Yellow Pages (Tesco Insurance's 24-hour emergency hotline, my
arse!), he said the leak is coming from the cast-iron heat exchanger.
He expressed surprise that the heat exchanger should spring a leak in
such a short period of time, and that, if the system had been flushed
properly, the water should be so black.

The boiler, an Ideal Classic FF340, was fitted as a replacement to an

Can't find any reference to that model on the web, so I don't
know what type it is.

Cast iron heat exchanger, tough as old boots. One of my old reliable modesl
which could be expected to last forever.


original system. This was supposedly power-flushed by the installers,
but according to yesterday's plumber, this should have taken about 4
hours, whereas my mother reckons it was a lot less than that (mind
you, she is in her eighties and does get confused, so she's not a
reliable witness).

Further information that may or may not be relevant:
i) All the radiators are fitted with TRVs, I think there is a by-pass,
but it doesn't have any kind of flow valve on it. I fitted a room
thermostat as there wasn't one before, and told my mother to keep the
TRV in the same room fully open (replacing the TRV with a lockshield
valve would have required a round tuit, which wasn't available at the
time). My sister visited last week and turned the valve down.

You could just remove the TRV head, which would leave the valve
fully open.

ii) Since the boiler was installed, it's only been used full for about
three-four months. My mother went into hospital in early January, and
was there for six months. While she was away, apart from a couple of
weekends I stayed over, the thermostat was lowered to keep it ticking
over on frost protection. Last weekend was the first time it's been
used apart from hot water for 9 months.

Questions:
1. Can an unflushed system cause a cast-iron heat exchanger to leak
after 14 months (unless there's a manufacturing fault)?

Yes but I would suggest very unlikely. How long did its (presumably cast
iron also) predecessor last?

I would say not, even if the system had no inhibitor. Radiators
are much thinner (unless also cast iron) and would corrode through
first. My parents had an Ideal Standard cast iron boiler for around
40 years, and it never had any inhibitor in it. It only got removed
because they wanted to switch to a smaller wall mounted boiler.
Even allowing for thinner castings nowadays, it's not going to
corrode through a modern one in 14 months IMHO.

2. If there isn't a by-pass circuit, could all the valves being up to
temperature have caused enough pressure to rupture the heat exchanger?

No


System should either be vented or have a pressure relief valve.
I don't know if it's a low water volume boiler though.

Its not.


3. Would a long layoff or low level of usage have exacerbated this
problem?

Running with the boiler stat too low can cause condensing operation
in non-condensing boilers.

The 340 is a modern version and IIRC its got a limited range stat response
so it shouldn't be possible to run at that low a setting even at number 1 on
the scale.


4. Who's at fault here? The boiler's manufacturer's, or the
installers (name-and-shame time: Merseyside Central Heating of
Crosby)?

Sounds to me like a manufacturing fault, but would need more
investigation to be sure.

Ideal will be most interested. Contact their customer service department in
Hull. I have had "one" similar failure on a 370 which I installed for a
client. Ideal sent me a replacement heat exchanger and refractory panels
since the old ones were slush. I sent them back the old holed unit which had
blown a hole in the back of the casting after three years. They examined it
and cancelled the invoice for the replacement. They also paid me £145 plus
VAT to cover my labour as well.
I had already hosed it down and taken photos of the failure which I felt
were caused by a blow hole in the casting which had been sealed with casting
mould material until it gave way after a long time in case of debate but my
apprehensions were unnecccessary.
You should discuss this with your installer but if they won't play ball
phone Ideal anyway

John