I would appreciate some thoughts please on positive changes we could make to
our inherited bathroom arrangements.

Our main bathroom is downstairs and contains an instant electric shower
along with bath etc.
Our main hot water is heated by a combination boiler also downstairs.
We have a smaller bathroom upstairs with a shower run off the bath taps.

I intend to build an en suite into our bedroom with a shower running from a
combination boiler shower mixer such as
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...cd=1&x=11&y=11

I am also intending to fit the same unit in our downstairs bathroom when I
refit this to remove the ancient and pitiful instant electric shower (which
appears to predate the combination boiler.)

The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs. Is there any solution to this (apart
from replacing the combination boiler with a boiler and tanks arrangement)
and what will happen to the new upstairs shower when a hot tap is run
downstairs? Will it just run cold due to lack of hot water, or will it shut
down completely?

The instant electric shower also suffers by scalding the user whenever a hot
or cold tap runs. I presume the new ones have something to prevent this?

Thanks.

The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

1. Just lump it and only use one shower at a time and scream at people not
to use the hot taps.
2. Get a storage based solution.
3. Get a combi with more capability.
4. Get a Dr Drivel second combi for one of the bathrooms.

Which solution is optimal depends on many variables.

As to the issue with the downstairs (presumably kitchen) taps starving the
showers, you might consider a local electric heater. They're fine for
handwashing and even doing the dishes, and will prevent the upstairs shower
running cold.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

1. Just lump it and only use one shower at a time and scream at people not
to use the hot taps.
2. Get a storage based solution.

Heat recovery devices on the showers may help a little, as well as reducing
cost.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous
combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

1. Just lump it and only use one shower at a time and scream at people not
to use the hot taps.
2. Get a storage based solution.
3. Get a combi with more capability.
4. Get a Dr Drivel second combi for one of the bathrooms.


We have a Worcester 350 which is also running 14 (soon to be 15) radiators.
Wonder if there's a larger capacity boiler easily available?
Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?

Which solution is optimal depends on many variables.

As to the issue with the downstairs (presumably kitchen) taps starving the
showers, you might consider a local electric heater. They're fine for
handwashing and even doing the dishes, and will prevent the upstairs
shower
running cold.

It's also the utility room taps - but plenty of shouting currently
accompanies most showers!

Thanks.

It's also the utility room taps - but plenty of shouting currently
accompanies most showers!

Switch all your laundry appliances (i.e. dishwasher/washing machine) to cold
fill only, if they currently use any hot.

Turning down the isolator valve for the tap to reduce flow rate can help
with the taps. Stops them taking all the hot water, although will obviously
increase sink fill times.

Christian.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor D wrote:

Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?

In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently calling
himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to whom the answer to
any question is to install one or more combi boilers. His views are
disregarded by the more discerning contributors!

The problem which you are going to have with *any* system producing instant
hot water is that - unless you have a very large capacity cold mains
supply - turning on *any* tap will reduce the mains pressure and have
repercussions elsewhere in the house. This is regardless of the number of
independent heating devices - because they are *all* fed from the same mains
supply.

In your position, I would be seriously considering a hot water storage
system - probably using instant hot water from the combi for the kitchen tap
only. With suitable zone valves etc. you can make the CH side of the combi
heat both the radiators *and* a tank of hot water.
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?

In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently
calling
himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to whom the answer
to
any question is to install one or more combi boilers. His views are
disregarded by the more discerning contributors!

The problem which you are going to have with *any* system producing
instant
hot water is that - unless you have a very large capacity cold mains
supply - turning on *any* tap will reduce the mains pressure and have
repercussions elsewhere in the house. This is regardless of the number of
independent heating devices - because they are *all* fed from the same
mains
supply.

In your position, I would be seriously considering a hot water storage
system - probably using instant hot water from the combi for the kitchen
tap
only. With suitable zone valves etc. you can make the CH side of the combi
heat both the radiators *and* a tank of hot water.
--
Cheers,
Set Square

Thanks for the useful advice - time to start planning my attack on this one
I think.
I used to be a regular visitor to this NG, but have been too busy with other
things (the house mainly!) in recent times. I'll watch out for Dr Evil. I
had already concluded the limitations of our cold water supply. As you say,
stored seems to be the way to go.

I had already concluded the limitations of our cold water supply. As you
say, stored seems to be the way to go.

Note that if there is insufficient water actually entering the house, you'll
need to either fix the cold supply, or install huge loft tanks (and pumps if
you want a decent shower).

Christian.

In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

2. Get a storage based solution.

This could probably be added to current boiler, perhaps retaining
the combi hot water for nearby usage, or the upstairs shower where
higher pressure than loft tank might be an advantage, and using a
hot water cylinder for everything else.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Doctor D wrote:
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs. Is there any solution to this
(apart from replacing the combination boiler with a boiler and tanks
arrangement) and what will happen to the new upstairs shower when a hot
tap is run downstairs? Will it just run cold due to lack of hot water,
or will it shut down completely?

The instant electric shower also suffers by scalding the user whenever a
hot or cold tap runs. I presume the new ones have something to prevent
this?

Sounds like all the water is provided off the mains? Think you'd have to
upgrade this considerably to provide enough flow for all this lot.

Have you space in the roof void for a cold water storage tank? That and a
stored hot water system of suitable size would get round the problems of
everything interfering with everything else - if the pipe sizes are
carefully calculated. You'd obviously keep mains feeds to cold water taps
where it might be used for drinking, and could keep the combi supplying
the kitchen.

--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor D wrote:


Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?


In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently calling
himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to whom the answer to
any question is to install one or more combi boilers.

That is unfair, he also has suggested at various times installing 15ft
of rockwool in the attic, Prescott in the Monarchy, and Tony Blair as
arcbishop.

Not to mention magic magnetic water softeners.

Its full moon tonight so he is probably under restraint somewhere - or
roaming the streets drooling.

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor D wrote:


Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?


In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently
calling himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to
whom the answer to any question is to install one or more combi
boilers.

That is unfair, he also has suggested at various times . . .

What I wrote is not untrue - just incomplete! g
--
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

Doctor D wrote:
I'll watch out for Dr Evil.

From your previous visits, you might recall a frequent poster called
IMM. IMM is now Dr. Evil.

You can set up a hot water storage cylinder to operate from the heating
circuit of a combi boiler. I've done it and it's not very hard.
However, it is unusual, wiring diagrams aren't published and is likely
to cause much head scratching by the 'always done it like that' type
plumber.

Also, the disadvantage with electric showers is that they're limited
to 9 or 12kW. If you do the maths, this doesn't convert to much of a
flow rate when you calculate the gpm heated from 10 to 40 degC. The old
shower may be past it, but a new one will still have a similar kW
rating and produce a similarly inadequate flow rate. Electric water
heating is expensive; I disagree with the suggestion to change washing
machines to cold fill.

The way to a decent flow rate is a storage system, which will
accumulate the required kW of hot water, or a combi oversized for the
heating load, say 30 or 40kW. I don't like combis, but they do have
their uses.

Electric water heating is expensive; I disagree with the suggestion
to change washing machines to cold fill.

A modern machine will barely use any of the hot water from a hot fill. By
the time hot water has actually come down the line, the fill is complete.
This leads to the water being heated first by gas and then again by
electricity, whilst there is now hot water in the lines needlessly cooling
down. In most circumstances, then, cold fill is actually more energy
efficient.

Christian.

In article . com,
Aidan wrote:

Electric water
heating is expensive; I disagree with the suggestion to change washing
machines to cold fill.

The snag is many modern machines use so little water it wouldn't run hot
by the time it's filled. You could, of course, run the hot tap beside the
machine until the water is up to temp then start the machine, but for the
amount of electricity it uses to heat from cold it sounds an awful faff.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Electric water heating is expensive; I disagree with the suggestion
to change washing machines to cold fill.

A modern machine will barely use any of the hot water from a hot fill. By
the time hot water has actually come down the line, the fill is complete.
This leads to the water being heated first by gas and then again by
electricity, whilst there is now hot water in the lines needlessly cooling
down. In most circumstances, then, cold fill is actually more energy
efficient.

Christian.


The combi sits above the washing machine and we always run the utility hot
tap before switching it on. A tip from my mother many years ago!
I had quite a search for a washing machine that still accepted a hot fill!

Thanks for the tip though.

I had quite a search for a washing machine that still accepted a hot fill!

There's no need. A modern machine uses only a tiny amount of water, so even
if you do manage to heat by gas, you save very little. This is why modern
machines are getting increasinly cold fill only, particularly the more
environmentally friendly (i.e. efficient in water use) ones.

Christian.

"Doctor D" wrote in message
...
I would appreciate some thoughts please on positive changes we could make
to
our inherited bathroom arrangements.

Our main bathroom is downstairs and contains an instant electric shower
along with bath etc.
Our main hot water is heated by a combination boiler also downstairs.
We have a smaller bathroom upstairs with a shower run off the bath taps.

I intend to build an en suite into our bedroom with a shower running from
a
combination boiler shower mixer such as

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea/...id=2X1JWMVKDAM
A3CJO2C3CIIQ?_dyncharset=UTF-8&q=&n=68697&pn=1&pd=1&pi=1&cn=1&cd=1&x=11&y=11

I am also intending to fit the same unit in our downstairs bathroom when I
refit this to remove the ancient and pitiful instant electric shower
(which
appears to predate the combination boiler.)

The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs. Is there any solution to this (apart
from replacing the combination boiler with a boiler and tanks arrangement)
and what will happen to the new upstairs shower when a hot tap is run
downstairs? Will it just run cold due to lack of hot water, or will it
shut
down completely?

The instant electric shower also suffers by scalding the user whenever a
hot
or cold tap runs. I presume the new ones have something to prevent this?

Thanks.

Add another combi. Highly cost effective.

One does upstairs CH with a stat/programmer and one does downstairs - two
separate timed zones using less fuel.
One does one bathroom, one does the other.
Divide and rule and one shower doesn't influence the other when showers are
taken, or other taps drawing off hot water.
Combine the outputs for the baths only, where high flows are required, by
using two check valves and shoick arrestor - simple.

You get:

- two separate timed CH zones, upstairs and downstairs
- no water storage so no standing heat losses,
- not running out of hot water at any time
- liberating space in the house
- eliminating a cylinder,
- no tanks in the loft to give off water vapour promoting condensation up
there.
- high pressure showers.
- fills a bath very quickly as the outputs of two combi's are directed into
the hot water.

The best solution.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous
combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

1. Just lump it and only use one shower at a time and scream at people not
to use the hot taps.
2. Get a storage based solution.
3. Get a combi with more capability.
4. Get a Dr Drivel second combi for one of the bathrooms.

Which solution is optimal depends on many variables.

As to the issue with the downstairs (presumably kitchen) taps starving the
showers, you might consider a local electric heater. They're fine for
handwashing and even doing the dishes, and will prevent the upstairs
shower
running cold.

If he is going to do it,. he may as well do it right. Electric hand wash
heaters when you have cheap to run gas around is very silly.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
It's also the utility room taps - but plenty of shouting currently
accompanies most showers!

Switch all your laundry appliances (i.e. dishwasher/washing machine) to
cold
fill only, if they currently use any hot.

Oh my God. All he has to do is fit a flow regulator on the appliance hot
feeds. A washing machine does not need to fill quickly. use cheap water
heated by gas which is 3 to 4 times cheaper than electricity.

Turning down the isolator valve for the tap to reduce flow rate can help
with the taps. Stops them taking all the hot water, although will
obviously
increase sink fill times.

Christian.

"Set Square" wrote in message
...
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor D wrote:

Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?

In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently
calling
himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to whom the answer
to
any question is to install one or more combi boilers. His views are
disregarded by the more discerning contributors!

You mean by the know-it-all bunch of armatures. I'm pro in the game .
Read, listen learn. Nah you are incapable of learning.

In your position, I would be seriously
considering a hot water storage
system

What drivel!

"Doctor D" wrote in message
...

Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?

In case you're new to this NG, there is a frequent poster currently
calling
himself 'Dr Evil' (an inadvertent anagram of 'drivel') to whom the
answer
to
any question is to install one or more combi boilers. His views are
disregarded by the more discerning contributors!

The problem which you are going to have with *any* system producing
instant
hot water is that - unless you have a very large capacity cold mains
supply - turning on *any* tap will reduce the mains pressure and have
repercussions elsewhere in the house. This is regardless of the number
of
independent heating devices - because they are *all* fed from the same
mains
supply.

In your position, I would be seriously considering a hot water storage
system - probably using instant hot water from the combi for the kitchen
tap
only. With suitable zone valves etc. you can make the CH side of the
combi
heat both the radiators *and* a tank of hot water.
--
Cheers,
Set Square

Thanks for the useful advice

I hope you are only being polite, as the advice was not useful.

"Doctor D" wrote in message
...

I'll watch out for Dr Evil. I
had already concluded the limitations
of our cold water supply. As you say,
stored seems to be the way to go.

Firstly, find out what the flow rate is. Time filling a bucket at the
outside tap. If that is OK, then it will be just a mater of running
separate cold supplies from the stop cock. One direct to the combi(s) inlet
and one to the cold taps. The cold to the showers can be taken off the
appropriate combi cold supply, teed off just before the combi. This limits
pressure fluctuations around the combi, and will reduce effects on the
showers..

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Christian McArdle" writes:
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs.

With this number of bathrooms and outlets, your average instantaneous
combi
won't be keeping up if you use multiple outlets at the same time.

You'll need either one of the following:

2. Get a storage based solution.

This could probably be added to current boiler, perhaps retaining
the combi hot water for nearby usage, or the upstairs shower where
higher pressure than loft tank might be an advantage, and using a
hot water cylinder for everything else.

Or just add another combi and spit the outlets amongst the combis. Musch
simpler and cheaper.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor D wrote:
The problem we have is the usual one of losing the hot water upstairs
whenever a hot tap is run downstairs. Is there any solution to this
(apart from replacing the combination boiler with a boiler and tanks
arrangement) and what will happen to the new upstairs shower when a hot
tap is run downstairs? Will it just run cold due to lack of hot water,
or will it shut down completely?

The instant electric shower also suffers by scalding the user whenever a
hot or cold tap runs. I presume the new ones have something to prevent
this?

Sounds like all the water is provided off the mains? Think you'd have to
upgrade this considerably to provide enough flow for all this lot.

Have you space in the roof void for
a cold water storage tank?

Oh my God, here we go again.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Set Square wrote:

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Doctor D wrote:


Interested in the Dr Drivel! What's that about?


In case you're new to this NG,

Jerys latest post summed you up right.

...two combi's is the favoured choice
...a solution our snotty uni man did not voice
...the combi's shower all for ever more
...with no large cylinders in which to store
...the cylinders cost a pretty penny
...the two combi's cost hardly any


...experience of these matters of his is slight
...taking notice of him the silly they might.


...cheap showers are there for ever more
...by use two combi's and not a cylinder water store.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Aidan wrote:

Electric water
heating is expensive; I disagree with the suggestion to change washing
machines to cold fill.

The snag is many modern machines use so little water it wouldn't run hot
by the time it's filled. You could, of course, run the hot tap beside the
machine until the water is up to temp then start the machine, but for the
amount of electricity it uses to heat from cold it sounds an awful faff.

Do you have any figures to prove this half baked theory? Or have you just
made it up as usual?

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:41:00 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
It's also the utility room taps - but plenty of shouting currently
accompanies most showers!

Switch all your laundry appliances (i.e. dishwasher/washing machine) to
cold
fill only, if they currently use any hot.

Oh my God. All he has to do is fit a flow regulator on the appliance hot
feeds. A washing machine does not need to fill quickly. use cheap water
heated by gas which is 3 to 4 times cheaper than electricity.

A moot point since most fabrics and detergents use washes that are so
cool that little or no hot water is used anyway.

Yet another instance of focussing on the corner cases and missing the
plot.




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 16:41:00 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
It's also the utility room taps - but plenty of shouting currently
accompanies most showers!

Switch all your laundry appliances (i.e. dishwasher/washing machine) to
cold
fill only, if they currently use any hot.

Oh my God. All he has to do is fit a flow regulator on the appliance hot
feeds. A washing machine does not need to fill quickly. use cheap water
heated by gas which is 3 to 4 times cheaper than electricity.

A moot point since most fabrics and detergents use washes that are so
cool that little or no hot water is used anyway.

Depends on the machine. Many take more hot water from the hot draw-off than
others. Even if a machine only occasionally takes in hot water it is still
well worth it as electricity is 4 times more expensive. That is a hell of a
difference.

Some dishwashers can be hot or cold fill. Best hot, as it is still cheaper
even though the rise is on hot.

Depends on the machine. Many take more hot water from the hot draw-off
than
others. Even if a machine only occasionally takes in hot water it is
still
well worth it as electricity is 4 times more expensive. That is a hell of
a
difference.

Which drops to nothing, or even negative when the wash fill is only a few
litres, which is probably greater than the amount of cold water that is
required to be flushed from the supply line.

If you have a water meter, the cost of the wasted water may be at least as
significant as the heating costs.

Yes electricity costs 3 to 4 times as much. However, the electrically heated
system will be considerably more efficient, mitigating or even reversing
this.

Some dishwashers can be hot or cold fill. Best hot, as it is still
cheaper
even though the rise is on hot.

Hot fill dishwashers do not clean as effectively as cold fill. Hot fill ones
use considerably more energy, as any rinsing cycles are done with hot water,
rather than cold. The supply pipes get hot and cool down several times in
the cycle, leading to much greater parasitic losses. That is why every
single 'A' rated energy efficiency dishwasher has cold fill.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Depends on the machine. Many take more hot water from the hot draw-off
than
others. Even if a machine only occasionally takes in hot water it is
still
well worth it as electricity is 4 times more expensive. That is a hell
of
a
difference.

Which drops to nothing,

Over a year it is not nothing, it all adds up.

or even negative when the wash
fill is only a few litres, which is
probably greater than the amount of
cold water that is required to be flushed
from the supply line.

If you have a water meter, the cost of
the wasted water may be at least as
significant as the heating costs.

You can have a secondary circulation pump to give instant hot water at the
taps, and cut down on dead leg wastage all around. It is also nicer to have
instant water at the taps.

Yes electricity costs 3 to 4 times as
much. However, the electrically heated
system will be considerably more efficient,
mitigating or even reversing this.

Nonsense.

Some dishwashers can be hot or cold fill.
Best hot, as it is still cheaper
even though the rinse is on hot.

Hot fill dishwashers do not clean
as effectively as cold fill. Hot fill ones
use considerably more energy,
as any rinsing cycles are done with hot water,
rather than cold.

As gas heated water is 1/4 of the price, it is still cheaper.

The supply pipes get hot and cool
down several times in the cycle,

Can be eliminated by using a secondary circulation pump.

leading to much greater parasitic losses.
That is why every single 'A' rated energy
efficiency dishwasher has cold fill.

The A rating is way out of date, as most modern machines now meet it easily
enough. The most efficient appliances was way off the scale making the scale
meaningless and confusing.

Efficiency does not relate to cost of running. As electricity is 4 times
more expensive to run than gas, an appliance using gas to heat the water
that is half as "efficient" as an all electric appliance is still cheaper to
run. Also as electricity is dirty to produce with only 30% efficiency from
station to point of use, the so-called "inefficient" gas using appliances
also far cleaner. Get it?

Can be eliminated by using a secondary circulation pump.

Er, this helps save water, but means that the leg is constantly losing heat,
so is bad for energy efficiency.

Christian.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Add another combi. Highly cost effective.

And just how is this going to get round the problem of other taps in the
house - hot or cold - interacting with hot flow?

The usual IMM one size fits all answer to a question he hasn't understood.

--
*The statement below is true.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
The snag is many modern machines use so little water it wouldn't run
hot by the time it's filled. You could, of course, run the hot tap
beside the machine until the water is up to temp then start the
machine, but for the amount of electricity it uses to heat from cold
it sounds an awful faff.

Do you have any figures to prove this half baked theory? Or have you
just made it up as usual?

I'm quite sure you stand beside your washing machine while it does a cold
pre-wash, then switch it off, run your twin 'combi's' both up to speed -
making sure the temperature is exactly as same as the machine setting -
then switch it on so you can save pence.

And I'm sure you'd fit the boiler as close to the machine as possible or
vice versa. Regardless of anything else.

Any other pearls of wisdom?

--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Evil wrote:

You mean by the know-it-all bunch of armatures.

We're armatures?

I'm pro in the game.

I'm sure you are, I just can't imagine what that game might be. Can't
involve motors.

In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
Depends on the machine. Many take more hot water from the hot draw-off
than others. Even if a machine only occasionally takes in hot water it
is still well worth it as electricity is 4 times more expensive. That is
a hell of a difference.

You'd be hard pressed to find a decent make new washing machine in the UK
that is not cold fill only these days.

Unless you love those Merkin top loader things that waste half the world's
resources.

Some dishwashers can be hot or cold fill. Best hot, as it is still
cheaper even though the rise is on hot.

Even more so with dishwashers.

Do you actually have either? If so, give the makes so we can all have a
good laugh.

--
*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Christian McArdle wrote:
However, the electrically heated system will be considerably more
efficient, mitigating or even reversing this.

Don't be silly. Drivel believes gas boilers are over 100% efficient.

--
*The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Can be eliminated by using a secondary circulation pump.

Er, this helps save water, but means that the leg is constantly losing
heat,
so is bad for energy efficiency.

You have the loop heavily lagged. It is also a great convenience too, to
have instant water at the taps. Water is not cheap these days, so saving 2
to 3 litres per hand wash is highly economical.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:

Add another combi. Highly cost effective.

And just how is this going to
get round the problem of other taps in the
house - hot or cold - interacting with hot flow?

Read what I wrote. I can't be bothered to explain to you as you lack
comprehension.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Evil wrote:
The snag is many modern machines use so little water it wouldn't run
hot by the time it's filled. You could, of course, run the hot tap
beside the machine until the water is up to temp then start the
machine, but for the amount of electricity it uses to heat from cold
it sounds an awful faff.

Do you have any figures to prove this half baked theory? Or have you
just made it up as usual?

I'm quite sure you stand beside your
washing machine while it does a cold
pre-wash, then switch it off,

No. I have a secondary circulation loop, so hot water is at every tap
instantly.