We're replastering our lounge and having removed the old cracked &
blown plaster, we've found a fair sided crack running diagonally in
the interior brick wall between the lounge and the old kitchen.

The crack starts at the top corner where the wall joins the inner skin
of the exterior wall and extends downward at approx 45 degrees then
meanders a bit. There are no major visible cracks on the outer skin of
the exterior wall, although one or two bricks have cracks through them
but not in any sort of 'connected' way. The exterior extension walls
(see below) have no visible cracks at all.

The house was built in the 1930's and the lounge has an extension, put
in about 15 years ago by the previous owners, with the opening going
through the exterior wall - RSJ put in above the window and the wall
below the window removed. There is approx 70cm between the inner
wall/outer wall corner and the opening.

We've got a builder coming round this afternoon to have a look at the
crack, but I'm pretty worried about this and I'm hoping that someone
can provide some reassuring words of wisdom & tell me it's common and
not going to cost a fortune to put right.

Perry

Perry Gunn wrote:

We're replastering our lounge and having removed the old cracked &
blown plaster, we've found a fair sided crack running diagonally in
the interior brick wall between the lounge and the old kitchen.

The crack starts at the top corner where the wall joins the inner skin
of the exterior wall and extends downward at approx 45 degrees then
meanders a bit. There are no major visible cracks on the outer skin of
the exterior wall, although one or two bricks have cracks through them
but not in any sort of 'connected' way. The exterior extension walls
(see below) have no visible cracks at all.

The house was built in the 1930's and the lounge has an extension, put
in about 15 years ago by the previous owners, with the opening going
through the exterior wall - RSJ put in above the window and the wall
below the window removed. There is approx 70cm between the inner
wall/outer wall corner and the opening.

We've got a builder coming round this afternoon to have a look at the
crack, but I'm pretty worried about this and I'm hoping that someone
can provide some reassuring words of wisdom & tell me it's common and
not going to cost a fortune to put right.


Its probably some sort of setlement in the foundations. Up till quite
recently foundations had no requirements to be bomb proof and were quite
shallow.

You probably have something like a tree growing nearby that has shrunk
the soil a bit and caused that part to drift downwards a little.

The 100% solution is to redo the foundations and underpin. About £100 a
meter.

But ist seldom necessary to go to those lengths.

Check any 15 year old trees, and lop or remove...and then just patch up
the crack.




Perry

In message , Perry Gunn
writes
We're replastering our lounge and having removed the old cracked &
blown plaster, we've found a fair sided crack running diagonally in
the interior brick wall between the lounge and the old kitchen.

The crack starts at the top corner where the wall joins the inner skin
of the exterior wall and extends downward at approx 45 degrees then
meanders a bit. There are no major visible cracks on the outer skin of
the exterior wall, although one or two bricks have cracks through them
but not in any sort of 'connected' way. The exterior extension walls
(see below) have no visible cracks at all.

The house was built in the 1930's and the lounge has an extension, put
in about 15 years ago by the previous owners, with the opening going
through the exterior wall - RSJ put in above the window and the wall
below the window removed. There is approx 70cm between the inner
wall/outer wall corner and the opening.

We've got a builder coming round this afternoon to have a look at the
crack, but I'm pretty worried about this and I'm hoping that someone
can provide some reassuring words of wisdom & tell me it's common and
not going to cost a fortune to put right.

Perry

The most sensible thing to do is to pay a Structural Engineer for an
inspection and opinion. This will put your mind at rest, and make sure
you dont fall for a builders con, (or lack of knowledge).

In the meantime, I wouldnt worry - many houses have cracks which
appeared a long time ago and are going no further. If there is no
matching crack on the outside, and the inside matching crack, (if there
was one), wasnt getting bigger, it is unlikely that anything is ongoing.

BUT DONT TAKE THE WORD OF A BUILDER!!!

--
Richard Faulkner

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:45:47 GMT, Perry Gunn waxed
lyrical about:

We're replastering our lounge and having removed the old cracked &
blown plaster, we've found a fair sided crack running diagonally in
the interior brick wall between the lounge and the old kitchen.

The crack starts at the top corner where the wall joins the inner skin
of the exterior wall and extends downward at approx 45 degrees then
meanders a bit. There are no major visible cracks on the outer skin of
the exterior wall, although one or two bricks have cracks through them
but not in any sort of 'connected' way. The exterior extension walls
(see below) have no visible cracks at all.

The house was built in the 1930's and the lounge has an extension, put
in about 15 years ago by the previous owners, with the opening going
through the exterior wall - RSJ put in above the window and the wall
below the window removed. There is approx 70cm between the inner
wall/outer wall corner and the opening.

We've got a builder coming round this afternoon to have a look at the
crack, but I'm pretty worried about this and I'm hoping that someone
can provide some reassuring words of wisdom & tell me it's common and
not going to cost a fortune to put right.

Perry

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

How the *%$^ did that get through building regs - and it must have
because when we brought the house 2 years ago our solicitor checked
that all the documentation for the 2 extensions was correct & signed
off.

We've phoned the council and have got the building inspector coming
tomorrow to tell us what size RSJ to put in and decide if we're going
to need to rebuild the piers with engineering bricks.

So much for a (relatively) simple 'off-with-the-old, on-with-the-new'
replastering of the lounge.

Perry

In article ,
Perry Gunn wrote:
Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

I've got a Victorian house with a bay only on the ground floor. The 9"
solid brick wall above that is supported by a timber lintel. It's survived
over 100 years. ;-)

--
*Plagiarism saves time *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Perry Gunn wrote:

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

And? ;-)

You might be worrying too much. As Dave said, most victorian properties
will be built using timber for lintels. On older properties they also
often build a slight arch in the brickwork above the lintels (but fill
in the space under the arch so you never see it unless you hack the
plaster off).

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

How much wall is there being supported on the timber?

How the *%$^ did that get through building regs - and it must have

By someone doing the calculations to show that it is adequately
supported perhaps?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:19:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
waxed lyrical about:

In article ,
Perry Gunn wrote:
Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

I've got a Victorian house with a bay only on the ground floor. The 9"
solid brick wall above that is supported by a timber lintel. It's survived
over 100 years. ;-)

Thanks for the reassurance - but they knew how to use timber then!
This isn't even a solid piece, it's two 5" x 2" lengths, on edge, &
they don't even appear to be bolted together.

Having spoken to the builder it doesn't look like it's too much of a
nightmare to put right phew! - although final cost will depend on
what the buildings inspector tells us we've got to do - and the
builder is an old friend of our future son-in-law so he's a known
quantity.

I don't really fancy this as a diy job - not when a slipup could
cause this much damage! Much as I hate paying builders, I'll only get
him to do what the inspector tells us we have to do.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:46:31 +0100, John Rumm
waxed lyrical about:

Perry Gunn wrote:

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

And? ;-)

You might be worrying too much. As Dave said, most victorian properties
will be built using timber for lintels. On older properties they also
often build a slight arch in the brickwork above the lintels (but fill
in the space under the arch so you never see it unless you hack the
plaster off).

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

How much wall is there being supported on the timber?


The opening is about 8ft. It's a two-story house and the opening was
originally a ground floor window (now free space) and the wood is
bridging the inner of the cavity wall skins.

How the *%$^ did that get through building regs - and it must have

By someone doing the calculations to show that it is adequately
supported perhaps?

Point taken! Although it doesn't appear to be adequate any more given
the subsequent movement of the wall and cracking that has occurred.

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

How the *%$^ did that get through building regs - and it must have
because when we brought the house 2 years ago our solicitor checked
that all the documentation for the 2 extensions was correct & signed
off.

We've phoned the council and have got the building inspector coming
tomorrow to tell us what size RSJ to put in and decide if we're going
to need to rebuild the piers with engineering bricks.

So much for a (relatively) simple 'off-with-the-old, on-with-the-new'
replastering of the lounge.

Perry

I would have thought that if the wooden lintel had not been strong enough
the cracks would have been upstairs above the lintel not downstairs.

Simon

Perry Gunn wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:46:31 +0100, John Rumm
waxed lyrical about:


The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

How much wall is there being supported on the timber?



The opening is about 8ft. It's a two-story house and the opening was
originally a ground floor window (now free space) and the wood is
bridging the inner of the cavity wall skins.

Are you aware whether the original window was 8ft wide, or was the
opening widened?

D

Perry Gunn wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:19:19 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
waxed lyrical about:
In article ,
Perry Gunn wrote:

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end!

sounds good.

Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

?

Wood lintels are standard on Victorian houses, and work fine, as long
as they dont rot.

A lot of old houses of course have no lintels at all, which is a bit
naughty, but they do normally stay up.


Thanks for the reassurance - but they knew how to use timber then!
This isn't even a solid piece, it's two 5" x 2" lengths, on edge, &
they don't even appear to be bolted together.

this isnt making much sense. Lay off the caffeine.


Having spoken to the builder it doesn't look like it's too much of a
nightmare to put right phew! - although final cost will depend on
what the buildings inspector tells us we've got to do -

you dont have to do anything.


and the
builder is an old friend of our future son-in-law so he's a known
quantity.

I don't really fancy this as a diy job - not when a slipup could
cause this much damage! Much as I hate paying builders, I'll only get
him to do what the inspector tells us we have to do.

You really need to calm down then look at all this again. Meanwhile I'd
be returning the props, if it were my place.

I'm not tryint to tell you what to do, the decisions are all yours, and
you'll live with the results.


NT

In article , "Perry
Gunn" says...
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:46:31 +0100, John Rumm
waxed lyrical about:

Perry Gunn wrote:

Things appear to be worse than I thought - after my earlier post we
decided to remove more plaster and expose around the end of the RSJ to
give the builder more to see/work with and we've found that there's no
steel there!

Maybe it's not required.
snip

The outer skin of the external wall has a concrete lintel and the
inner skin has a couple of 5x2 timbers stood on end! Just had a rush
trip to the hire shop and now got acrows supporting the opening and
the ceilings on either side just to be safe.

A couple of 5x2 next to each other is pretty much as good as a single
5x4 - they will be more prone to bowing sideways if not bolted
together, but the vertical stiffness will be the same.

How much wall is there being supported on the timber?


The opening is about 8ft. It's a two-story house and the opening was
originally a ground floor window (now free space) and the wood is
bridging the inner of the cavity wall skins.

How the *%$^ did that get through building regs - and it must have

By someone doing the calculations to show that it is adequately
supported perhaps?

Point taken! Although it doesn't appear to be adequate any more given
the subsequent movement of the wall and cracking that has occurred.

The problem sounds like settling in the foundations rather than
weakness in the lintel, although I'm not sure that I've understood
your description of the situation.

In article , Rob Morley
wrote:
A couple of 5x2 next to each other is pretty much as good as a single
5x4 - they will be more prone to bowing sideways if not bolted
together, but the vertical stiffness will be the same.

Statistically better (2no 5x2 are 1.14 as stiff as a single 5x4 when
calculating to BS5268) because it is highly unlikely that any knots or
other weaknesses in one piece will also be in the other piece at that
point, whilst with a single piece a knot may carry through.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

In article , "Tony Bryer"
says...
In article , Rob Morley
wrote:
A couple of 5x2 next to each other is pretty much as good as a single
5x4 - they will be more prone to bowing sideways if not bolted
together, but the vertical stiffness will be the same.

Statistically better (2no 5x2 are 1.14 as stiff as a single 5x4 when
calculating to BS5268) because it is highly unlikely that any knots or
other weaknesses in one piece will also be in the other piece at that
point, whilst with a single piece a knot may carry through.

I hadn't considered that, but of course it makes perfect sense.

Perry Gunn wrote:

The opening is about 8ft. It's a two-story house and the opening was
originally a ground floor window (now free space) and the wood is
bridging the inner of the cavity wall skins.

So is the opening the same size as before - just with the window
removed? If so I would expect any support above to still be adequate.

By someone doing the calculations to show that it is adequately
supported perhaps?


Point taken! Although it doesn't appear to be adequate any more given
the subsequent movement of the wall and cracking that has occurred.

Well if you were getting cracks forming above the lintel then yes.

You have neglected to mention the type of soil in your area, but the
type of crack you describe is typical on clay soils and can be caused by
changes in the water table, or commonly by close proximity of tree roots.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Thanks to everyone for the advice & suggestions - even the one about
laying off the caffeine. :-)

My 'Oh Sh*t!' reaction is pretty typical for me - find something
unexpected and think the worst, then investigate/ask questions and
find out it's not as bad as all that! And a good night's sleep always
seems to put things in perspective

We're currently awaiting the visit from the inspector and we'll just
have to see what he says about replacing the wood - if we have to do
it, we have to do it! Could do without the extra expense though!

Thanks again to all who responded.

Perry

Perry Gunn wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the advice & suggestions - even the one about
laying off the caffeine. :-)

My 'Oh Sh*t!' reaction is pretty typical for me - find something
unexpected and think the worst, then investigate/ask questions and
find out it's not as bad as all that! And a good night's sleep always
seems to put things in perspective

We're currently awaiting the visit from the inspector and we'll just
have to see what he says about replacing the wood - if we have to do
it, we have to do it! Could do without the extra expense though!


Can we all quote you for some work?
I'm sure you need new piers to support your new steelwork, after all
you cant rest steel on nothing.

Plus I'd have to put new foundations in for those piers of course...
thats life.

My mate ere says you need to rewire that socket cos its so dangerous.
In fact it all is, have to rip the lot out and start again. You've got
to do it!!!

Sheesh, who put the window in like that? That could fall down at any
moment! You'll need new double glazing, in lovely self yellowing self
cracking plastic, plus a full set of new lintels, those old concrete
ones are no good.

Oh my, who put your boiler in?? Good lord, you must get that seen to
before winter, dont want any accidents there.

Perry.... relax You've got more support there than millions of
houses in the UK, and theyre not falling down. Its quite common to find
Victorian wood lintels that are rotten, there are 100s of 1000s of
houses without any lintels, and so on.


NT

Perry Gunn wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the advice & suggestions - even the one about
laying off the caffeine. :-)

My 'Oh Sh*t!' reaction is pretty typical for me - find something
unexpected and think the worst, then investigate/ask questions and
find out it's not as bad as all that! And a good night's sleep always
seems to put things in perspective

We're currently awaiting the visit from the inspector and we'll just
have to see what he says about replacing the wood - if we have to do
it, we have to do it! Could do without the extra expense though!


Can we all quote you for some work?
I'm sure you need new piers to support your new steelwork, after all
you cant rest steel on nothing.

Plus I'd have to put new foundations in for those piers of course...
thats life.

My mate ere says you need to rewire that socket cos its so dangerous.
In fact it all is, have to rip the lot out and start again. You've got
to do it!!!

Sheesh, who put the window in like that? That could fall down at any
moment! You'll need new double glazing, in lovely self yellowing self
cracking plastic, plus a full set of new lintels, those old concrete
ones are no good.

Oh my, who put your boiler in?? Good lord, you must get that seen to
before winter, dont want any accidents there.

Perry.... relax You've got more support there than millions of
houses in the UK, and theyre not falling down. Its quite common to find
Victorian wood lintels that are rotten, there are 100s of 1000s of
houses without any lintels, and so on.

Klaxon!


NT

In message , Perry Gunn
writes

Thanks to everyone for the advice & suggestions - even the one about
laying off the caffeine. :-)

My 'Oh Sh*t!' reaction is pretty typical for me - find something
unexpected and think the worst, then investigate/ask questions and
find out it's not as bad as all that! And a good night's sleep always
seems to put things in perspective

We're currently awaiting the visit from the inspector and we'll just
have to see what he says about replacing the wood - if we have to do
it, we have to do it! Could do without the extra expense though!

Thanks again to all who responded.

Perry


I would still recommend a Structural Engineers Inspection and Report g

--
Richard Faulkner