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#1
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Part P & Showers
My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved
10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? Thanks John |
#2
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"John" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work has been carried out. Kev |
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"Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "John" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work has been carried out. Kev Pretty much. Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far as domestic electrical work is concerned now! The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not considered to be notifiable. The Electrickery gurus around here might know if there has been any further clarification on this, though. -- Richard Sampson mail me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
#4
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"RichardS" wrote in message ... "Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "John" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work has been carried out. Kev Pretty much. Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far as domestic electrical work is concerned now! The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not considered to be notifiable. The Electrickery gurus around here might know if there has been any further clarification on this, though. Richard Sampson I think you're right on that like for like swapping Mr S, and this is only because the installation never had a problem with a load of the size you already have. That's as long as the original installation has already been inspected by a qualified person first of course. |
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My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved
10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Peter Crosland |
#6
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Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been
replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC. "John" wrote in message ... | My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved | 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as | he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, | tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing | this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the | biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the | shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really | want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on | the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can | I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? | | Thanks | | John | | |
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"Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? |
#8
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" It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. Peter Crosland |
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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:05:44 +0100, RichardS wrote:
"Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "John" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work has been carried out. Kev Pretty much. Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far as domestic electrical work is concerned now! The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not considered to be notifiable. The Electrickery gurus around here might know if there has been any further clarification on this, though. By the book that would have to be the exact same model, which is not being made anymore,I expect. What you do next will depend on 1) How much of a jobsworth you are. 2) ... the customer is. 3) Whether any other notifiable work is taking place. 4) How confident you are that nothing will every go seriously wrong. The 6mm cable under the ideal installation conditions could take over 40A so it could be protected by a 40A MCB. Which gives 9.2kW @ 230V (if the shower is specified @230V) or 9.6kW @240V (if the shower is gven at 240V). However if the cable is anything other than surface clipped it falls to 38A thus protected by 35A breaker etc. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
#10
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On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote: Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Not all electricians work on domestic properties, the vast majority working on public\commercial\industrial properties are more than qualified and experienced to do such work, and more likely to be better at doing the job than the vast majority of house bashers who some-how gain the Part P approval. The whole thing was setup to keep the electrical contractors happy as they were desperate to get their hands on the domestic market for electrical installations. The commercial\industral companies would have put the government pressure to forget such a hopeless law, on various grounds, financial being one. The worse thing about this law has already atarted to show it colours as people start to see how much they have to pay for a electrician with Part P, they will ask a electrician who can do the work and he will pass them off as he doesn't want to end up in court. So they will decide to do it themselfs with out any sort of guidance. This means the installation will not be installed by anybody who is competent, and instead we will end up with the worst of all worlds. To answer your question one person who is known as two jags or two jabs and the department of the deputy prime minister was behind this hopeless law. J |
#11
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On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:15:55 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote: You ask several questions. Attempting to answer them in sequence. [snip intro about shower] The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable Be SURE of your cable sizes, if necessary obtain a short length of 6mm and compare it. The current carrying capacity of 6mm depends on many factors but 32 amps is an "almost certainly safe" rating for it. The length limitations are basically all to do with voltage drop, and for a shower, and over less than a 50m run of cable, it shouldn't be an issue. I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Try taking the cover off (*with the mains off, and make sure you put it back properly*) The KW rating will likely be stamped on the heating chamber somewhere, along with its voltage rating and other pertinant information, again, be entirely *sure* Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? Legally I am not sure because frankly part P is a disaster area, they wrote it in haste. The likely answer is NO, you can't legally do it because it's in a 'special area' or whatever the wording is. If he has the money, consult a sparky, you may be able to do all the hard work, thus saving the guy money, and have the spark hook it up etc etc. Be aware, it's likely to need an RCD, which may not be on the circuit now, plus, a straight changeout like this should also be accompanied by a detailed examination for loose terminals at the switch, overheating, cable damage, and so forth. As others have said further down this thread, electric showers are potentially incredibly dangerous, I find it amazing that in a country that frowns on lightswitches in bathrooms, you're allowed a 32 or 40 amp 240 volt circuit IN the shower area! That being said, certainly take a look at the existing unit, inside and out, try to determine its rating and so forth. Apologies if any of this sounds 'bleeding obvious' or patronizing, I just like people to cover all bases when it comes to electricity, I've seen more near misses than I want to. |
#12
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To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the number over the last year was 5. Yes just 5. Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the setting up.....the advertising......the training... the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc. A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist. And to save 5 lives ? The cowboys will carry on as usual........... The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce road accidents"..................so lets have some more. Its madness............ First the plumbers Now the electricians Who next..................?????.............Bricklayer s? Mechanics? Mini cab drivers? Hospital cleaners?? they can all kill you if they dont do their job right .....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!! ! just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!! Barry |
#13
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"Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. Its not my neighbour. You should learn to follow attribution of threadsg I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances and flexes are the real culprits Having a paper qualification from an accredited body may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on the job being done properly or the safety of the fitting of a replacement for the existing unit. I suggest you are the one who should stop being an idiot and wake up to reality. Being a professionally qualified Electrical Engineer, even one who teaches the "electricians" of tomorrow is not accepted by the fat buffoons department as being competent to carry out domestic work but somehow is acceptable for commercial and industrial work, power transmission and distribution, generation etc. Sense? there isn't any! |
#14
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"Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'. Kev |
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John_ZIZinvalid wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) -- |
#16
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"Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'. Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs. You choose. ;-)) Steve |
#17
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"Martin Evans" wrote in message ... John_ZIZinvalid wrote: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) If I thought that that useless ******* was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains. |
#18
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"shazzbat" wrote in message ... "Martin Evans" wrote in message ... John_ZIZinvalid wrote: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) If I thought that that useless ******* was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains. That would make a real earth of him. :-) Well, he's been making an earth of us for long enough, hasn't he? |
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In article ,
"John" writes: Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find any record on the net anymore, but a news item was available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0 which is another reason for not using short URLs.) The shower was professionally installed not that long before the incident. The victim had commented on getting electric shocks from it before, but didn't seem to have done anything about it. Incredibly, the contractor who installed the shower was called in to investigate what was wrong with it, so the investigation report would be worthless. My comment at the time was that this would be like asking Jarvis to investigate the Potters Bar rail crash. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#20
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shazzbat wrote:
"Martin Evans" wrote in message ... John_ZIZinvalid wrote: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) If I thought that that useless ******* was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains. Surely you don't believe the DPM personally make this decsison? Where is the political mileage in that? It was more likely some jobs worth civil servant who gets jollys/kickbacks from the elec industry. maybe even "retired" and working for them now.. It does happen, I've seen it with my own eyes. Senior civil servant to preferred vendor .. "would you care to persue this quote from your competitors while I'm out of the room" |
#21
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shazzbat wrote:
"Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'. Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs. The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool |
#22
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"shazzbat" wrote in message ... "Martin Evans" wrote in message ... John_ZIZinvalid wrote: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) If I thought that that useless ******* was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains. have you got part p to do that as it will mean adding a new circuit |
#23
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"OldBill" wrote in message ... shazzbat wrote: "Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'. Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs. The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !! Kev |
#24
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"Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "OldBill" wrote in message ... shazzbat wrote: "Uno Hoo!" wrote in message ... "Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... " It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers. Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly. In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to get to do it is a 'professional'. Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs. The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !! Kev But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained people leaving all the water-tight doors open. |
#25
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In article , Stickems.
wrote: Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC. Nonsense as usual like all your antisocial postings. -- AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk ** Would you like to learn to post effectively? ** ** http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post ** |
#26
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find any record on the net anymore, but a news item was available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0 which is another reason for not using short URLs.) The shower was professionally installed not that long before the incident. The victim had commented on getting electric shocks from it before, but didn't seem to have done anything about it. Now where have I heard that before ... oh yes, someone who got electric shocks off a towel rail in the kitchen wasn't it. Whatever next, padded walls in the building regulations. Owain |
#27
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"Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Totally disagree with that. Knowing all the answers is not what it's about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where appropriate, is. Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - on the grounds that they should know it all? Or would you stop doctors checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds? I don't think so. -- Martin (Remove barrier to reply) |
#28
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"bs" wrote in message ... To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the number over the last year was 5. Yes just 5. And it would be more meaningful to have details of each of these 5. Where they are caused by amateur sparkies? Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the setting up.....the advertising......the training... the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc. A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist. And to save 5 lives ? The cowboys will carry on as usual........... The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce road accidents"..................so lets have some more. Its madness............ First the plumbers Now the electricians Who next..................?????.............Bricklayer s? Mechanics? Mini cab drivers? Hospital cleaners?? they can all kill you if they dont do their job right ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!! ! just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!! All very well said. (and what exactly would they prefer us to die from anyway?) -- Martin (Remove barrier to reply) |
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A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.
"bs" wrote in message ... | | | To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic | electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the | number over the last year was 5. | | Yes just 5. | | Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the | setting up.....the advertising......the training... | the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified | electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in | courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc. | A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive | cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right | US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist. | | And to save 5 lives ? | | The cowboys will carry on as usual........... | The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their | "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce road | accidents"..................so lets have some more. | | Its madness............ | | First the plumbers | Now the electricians | Who next..................?????.............Bricklayer s? Mechanics? Mini cab | drivers? Hospital cleaners?? | they can all kill you if they dont do their job right | ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs | for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!! ! | | just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!! | | | Barry | | | | | |
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"Stickems." wrote in message
... A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life. What - the old "Safety at any price" argument? That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is complete bollox. -- Richard Sampson mail me at richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk |
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"Martin" wrote in message ... "Peter Crosland" wrote in message ... My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak. He has decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him. I have no problem doing this but would like some advice. The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it! I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW. Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in? It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Totally disagree with that. Knowing all the answers is not what it's about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where appropriate, is. Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - on the grounds that they should know it all? Or would you stop doctors checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds? I don't think so. I couldn't agree more with that. The fact that someone has to seek advice prior to commencing a job does not mean that he is not competent to do it - merely that he requires further information in order to do it properly. I've said it before and I'll say it again - in the vast majority of cases, a keen diy'er will produce a far superior job to most 'professionals'. I could fill a book with the slipshod work that has been carried out for me and friends/relatives over the years by so-called professional, garage mechanics, tow-bar fitters, kitchen installers, tilers, laminate flooring installers, etc. There *are* some perfectionist professionals out there - but sadly they are few and far between! Kev |
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In article , RichardS
wrote: What - the old "Safety at any price" argument? That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is complete bollox. From an unrepentant "upside-downer". What else can you expect? -- AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd : Satellite and TV aerial systems http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk : http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk |
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SNIP But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !! Kev But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained people leaving all the water-tight doors open. AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded compartment to overflow into the next, and so on. Steve |
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-- --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Stickems." wrote in message ... A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life. ----------------------------------------------- A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I'm glad your not running the country.Lets say the whole thing cost £30 million to set up and fund. £30 million times a million is .....er well it a lot. (name that number please ) AND Any cost??........You did say "any cost.".??????.............is worth less than one life. An interesting economic model. And we are talking taxpayers money here...........and if you had your way a bust economy. food for thought Barry |
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John wrote:
I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances and flexes are the real culprits Nah. The figure of 5 is deaths/year from *fixed* wiring; the equipment (portable and non-portable) ones account for another 14 deaths/year. Accidents scale similarly: 576 non-fatal from fixed wiring, 1700 non-fatal from equipment. These numbers are over at http://www.rospa.com/productsafety/a...electrical.htm Prescott's own department admitted it loused up by using the all-electrical figures - themselves remarkably low - rather than the ones relating only to fixed wiring. That admission is buried over at http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...023509-06.hcsp that's all one line - if your browser wraps it, rebuild it). It uses figues of 2.6 deaths and 447 accidents - I don't know where the discrepancy of 5 vs 2.6 comes from. Stefek |
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It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but
the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. Totally disagree with that. Knowing all the answers is not what it's about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where appropriate, is. Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - on the grounds that they should know it all? Or would you stop doctors checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds? I don't think so. No I would not. But the way the question was worded and indeed that it was asked just emphasises that the OP does not understand the issues or the answers. Peter Crosland |
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"shazzbat" wrote in message ... SNIP But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !! Kev But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained people leaving all the water-tight doors open. AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded compartment to overflow into the next, and so on. And surely the professionals would have been responsible for ensuring that those who left the doors open were trained. ;o) -- Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) |
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wrote in message ... On 10 Jun, OldBill wrote: shazzbat wrote: Old saying I heard some years ago - The Titanic was built by professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs. The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool And designed by accountants. Surely the Captain would have been a professional fool! -- Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) |
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"BigWallop" wrote in message . uk... "shazzbat" wrote in message ... "Martin Evans" wrote in message ... John_ZIZinvalid wrote: On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John" wrote: Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such as a busy town centre. But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property. Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. ;-) If I thought that that useless ******* was going to show up, I'd wire up the fridge door to the mains. That would make a real earth of him. :-) Well, he's been making an earth of us for long enough, hasn't he? Let's be honest. He was over promoted when he was a cabin boy ;o) -- Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) |
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It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
but the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. This is self evident - but having asked the question and gathered the necessary information then one is then better qualified than before - which is also self evident. I just installed a new Gainsborough 9.5kw shower in my new bathroom - following the useful instructions on the packet and having studied postings on this group. Nobody dead yet but we are all lovely and clean! As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD? |
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