Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

Does anyone have any experience of these? Are they actually any good?

The other brand they stock is Ravenheat. Are these any better?

sponix

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

Does anyone have any experience of these? Are they actually any good?

The other brand they stock is Ravenheat. Are these any better?

sponix


When I asked that exact same question on here about 6 weeks back I got no
replies but on subsequently asking around locally, I found out that the B&Q
boilers were cheap enough but don't last long and so we decided to go with
an Alpha boiler
http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/products.html

Only time will tell whether we've made the right choice or not but if the
manufacturer is confident enough to give a 3-year warranty I reckon it's
worth a try.

Mogweed.

"Mogweed" wrote in message
...

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

Does anyone have any experience of these? Are they actually any good?

The other brand they stock is Ravenheat. Are these any better?

sponix


When I asked that exact same question on here about 6 weeks back I got no
replies but on subsequently asking around locally, I found out that the
B&Q
boilers were cheap enough but don't last long and so we decided to go with
an Alpha boiler
http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/products.html

Only time will tell whether we've made the right choice or not but if the
manufacturer is confident enough to give a 3-year warranty I reckon it's
worth a try.

Mogweed.


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of boiler
breakdowns.

Andy.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.

Biasi seemed to be one of the better brands as most of the parts are
standard and they are simple to repair!

I'd hoped that someone on here had got experience of Biasi and could
either confirm or deny that they are OK.

(Among others I'm looking at the Biasi M90F24S, 83,000BTU, which is
currently £348 inclusive of VAT)

sponix

I have a Ravenheat, fitted last year, and it seems pretty good to me.
No idea if it will last forever, but it certainly does me!

just fitted Ravenheat, works well but is noisey when firing up. good
luckSmudge

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...

Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi
boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

And volume sales

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

If condensing and they have a secondary condensing heat exchanger don't
bother. Avoid ANY boiler with a secondary heat exchanger. Many makers have
just sipped them in to comply with the 1st Aril condensing regs. Buy boioer
with a top mounted burners and a one pive heat exchanger.

Avoid anything made by Ravenheat. BIASI are better. The non-condensing
combi is a well priced budget boiler. They use a lot of pretty well stadard
parts, so simple enough.

Why don't you get a very high flowrate multi-point instant water heater and
a small condensing system boiler for the heating. Two simple systems. No
tanks or cylinders and wizzo hot water on-demand flowrates. Rinnai, the
Japanese maker who are the world's largest maker of gas appliances, are now
importing into the UK. There products are "excellent". 38 litres/min?
They
have it. They regulate the hot water output to +- 1 degree F. You can have
a remote control temperature control, one is waterproof for the shower, so
you have the temperature say 37C for the shower and them zap it up to 55C
for the kitchen sink. The Rinnia can also be fitted "outside" on an outside
wall, if you have location and fluing problems. Rinnia is probably the
largest selling instant water heater in the world.

This is a highly cost effective route.



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s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.

Biasi seemed to be one of the better brands as most of the parts are
standard and they are simple to repair!

I'd hoped that someone on here had got experience of Biasi and could
either confirm or deny that they are OK.

(Among others I'm looking at the Biasi M90F24S, 83,000BTU, which is
currently £348 inclusive of VAT)

sponix

B&Q & Wickes boilers are the boilers of choice for three plumbers I know.

Due to their purchasing power B&Q & Wickes tend to be much cheaper
than many merchants, even with a trade discount applied. don't know
about long term reliability but £348 Inc is a very, very good price.

the SOGA states that majot appliances should last for a reasonable time
and 6 years is the cut off point for retailers responsibility, iirc. thy will all
tell you diffrent but have a look here

http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/fa...legoodsact.htm

at £348 I'm very tempted to swap my ageing boiler out ratehr than pay the
£250 odd it's going to cost in spares and aggro to get it perfect for winter.



RT

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 13:23:17 GMT, "[news]" wrote:

at £348 I'm very tempted to swap my ageing boiler out ratehr than pay the
£250 odd it's going to cost in spares and aggro to get it perfect for winter.

That was my feeling on the matter. I have an elderly floor standing
boiler which I was going to eke out for a few more years but at the
price I'm tempted to replace it.

Even at £348 I'd recon on it lasting a minimum of 10 years or so.

I have done various google searches and can't find any bad comments
about them.

Does anyone know if the "Grab a granny" discount still applies on a
wednesday and whether it applies to B&Q warehouses? That'd get me a
further 10% off if I can find a granny..

sponix

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:15:28 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

And volume sales

Good point.

If condensing and they have a secondary condensing heat exchanger don't
bother. Avoid ANY boiler with a secondary heat exchanger. Many makers have
just sipped them in to comply with the 1st Aril condensing regs. Buy boioer
with a top mounted burners and a one pive heat exchanger.

I was trying to avoid a condenser boiler as I feel these are more
prone to failure.

Avoid anything made by Ravenheat. BIASI are better. The non-condensing
combi is a well priced budget boiler. They use a lot of pretty well stadard
parts, so simple enough.

Good

Why don't you get a very high flowrate multi-point instant water heater and
a small condensing system boiler for the heating.

At the moment the budget will probably only stretch to a single combi
for both hot water and heating.

However, your suggestion does raise some interesting possibilities...I
will install the pipework such that it'll be easy to add a multi-point
heater at a later date (If/when finances permit)

sponix

"[news]" wrote in message
...
s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the
manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas
they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I
can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost
might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of
boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.

Biasi seemed to be one of the better brands as most of the parts are
standard and they are simple to repair!

I'd hoped that someone on here had got experience of Biasi and could
either confirm or deny that they are OK.

(Among others I'm looking at the Biasi M90F24S, 83,000BTU, which is
currently £348 inclusive of VAT)

sponix

B&Q & Wickes boilers are the boilers of choice for three plumbers I know.

Not because they think they are superb boilers. More that they can em cheap
and charge high. The Wickes (Halstead) boilers are quite good. As I say
avoid ANY boiler with a secondary condensing heat exchanger. The cost of a
good quality, one piece downward firing burner boiler is not that much more.

at £348 I'm very tempted to swap my
ageing boiler out ratehr than pay the
£250 odd it's going to cost in spares
and aggro to get it perfect for winter.

That is a good ploy. You get a guarantee and if it lasts 6 years and you
have to swap out again you are still ahead financially - as long as you DIY.

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Doctor Evil wrote:
"[news]" wrote in message
...
s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.

Biasi seemed to be one of the better brands as most of the parts are
standard and they are simple to repair!

I'd hoped that someone on here had got experience of Biasi and could
either confirm or deny that they are OK.

(Among others I'm looking at the Biasi M90F24S, 83,000BTU, which is
currently £348 inclusive of VAT)

sponix

B&Q & Wickes boilers are the boilers of choice for three plumbers I know.

Not because they think they are superb boilers.

"fair to middling, no better or worse than most others in that price range"

More that they can em cheap and charge high.

good business practise and as long as the markup isnt too high that's ok.

The Wickes (Halstead) boilers are quite good.

I know, the Sime I've got has lasted well but it's starting to play up, this is after
replacing the gas valve and the divertor valve. next up is the diaphgram and
then, probably, the circuit board as it's blown no 3A mains fuses in the last 8
years and two in the last 2 weeks.

As I say
avoid ANY boiler with a secondary condensing heat exchanger. The cost of a
good quality, one piece downward firing burner boiler is not that much more.

at £348 I'm very tempted to swap my
ageing boiler out ratehr than pay the
£250 odd it's going to cost in spares
and aggro to get it perfect for winter.

That is a good ploy. You get a guarantee and if it lasts 6 years and you
have to swap out again you are still ahead financially - as long as you DIY.

we're selling this property within 6 months or so, I'm thinking of swapping it
out (DIY + Corgi brother in law) to avoid any comebacks if the boiler packs
up before winter as I suspect it will.

cheap boiler - legal fees crap boiler + legal fees + aggro


RT

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 14:15:28 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

And volume sales

Good point.

If condensing and they have a secondary condensing heat exchanger don't
bother. Avoid ANY boiler with a secondary heat exchanger. Many makers
have
just sipped them in to comply with the 1st Aril condensing regs. Buy a
boiler
with a top mounted burner and a one piece heat exchanger.

I was trying to avoid a condenser boiler as I feel these are more
prone to failure.

Who told you that? The only difference is a larger heat exchanger and
condensate pipe. You HAVE to fit a condensing boiler!!!! From April 1st.

Avoid anything made by Ravenheat. BIASI are better. The non-condensing
combi is a well priced budget boiler. They use a lot of pretty well
stadard
parts, so simple enough.

Good

Why don't you get a very high flowrate multi-point instant water heater
and
a small condensing system boiler for the heating.

At the moment the budget will probably only stretch to a single combi
for both hot water and heating.

However, your suggestion does raise some interesting possibilities...I
will install the pipework such that it'll be easy to add a multi-point
heater at a later date (If/when finances permit)

If you go for a Rinnai in the future, you can then just use the combi as a
system boiler. Best leave the water connected and have isolation valves in
case the Rinnai is down. 1/4 turn valves with one off and one on. Instant
backup. Just leave the pipes ready. The boiler and Rinnai can go in the
loft, so worth look up there as the location. As I said, the Rinnai can go
outside, if space is a problem.




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"[news]" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:
"[news]" wrote in message
...
s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the
manufacturer is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years
perhas they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I
can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost
might be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of
boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.

Biasi seemed to be one of the better brands as most of the parts are
standard and they are simple to repair!

I'd hoped that someone on here had got experience of Biasi and could
either confirm or deny that they are OK.

(Among others I'm looking at the Biasi M90F24S, 83,000BTU, which is
currently £348 inclusive of VAT)

sponix

B&Q & Wickes boilers are the boilers of choice for three plumbers I
know.

Not because they think they are superb boilers.

"fair to middling, no better or worse than most others in that price
range"

They are the budget range and I'm "plumbers" are passing them off for being
better.

More that they can em cheap and charge high.

good business practise and as
long as the markup isnt too high that's ok.

The Wickes (Halstead) boilers are quite good.

I know, the Sime I've got has lasted well but it's starting to play up,
this is after
replacing the gas valve and the divertor valve. next up is the diaphgram
and
then, probably, the circuit board as it's blown no 3A mains fuses in the
last 8
years and two in the last 2 weeks.

As I say
avoid ANY boiler with a secondary condensing heat exchanger. The cost
of a
good quality, one piece downward firing burner boiler is not that much
more.

at £348 I'm very tempted to swap my
ageing boiler out ratehr than pay the
£250 odd it's going to cost in spares
and aggro to get it perfect for winter.

That is a good ploy. You get a guarantee and if it lasts 6 years and
you
have to swap out again you are still ahead financially - as long as you
DIY.

we're selling this property within 6 months or so, I'm thinking of
swapping it
out (DIY + Corgi brother in law) to avoid any comebacks if the boiler
packs
up before winter as I suspect it will.

cheap boiler - legal fees crap boiler + legal fees + aggro


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On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:36:28 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I was trying to avoid a condenser boiler as I feel these are more
prone to failure.

Who told you that?

There is more to go wrong.

You HAVE to fit a condensing boiler!!!! From April 1st.

No. There is a points system in place. If an installation scores ober
(Or is it under) a certain number of points you can fit an ordinary
boiler.

sponix

Doctor Evil wrote:

snip

They are the budget range and I'm "plumbers" are passing them off for being
better.

They are indeed budget boilers but some at B&Q / Wickes are not and are
sold accordingly priced and based on suitability rather than price+markup.

The plumbers I mention are all gas service engineers with ACS / ACOPS /
CORGI / LPG / ETC. all with boat / caravan & industrial qualifications.

guess again


RT

"Mogweed" wrote in message
...

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

Does anyone have any experience of these? Are they actually any good?

The other brand they stock is Ravenheat. Are these any better?

sponix


When I asked that exact same question on here about 6 weeks back I got no
replies but on subsequently asking around locally, I found out that the
B&Q boilers were cheap enough but don't last long and so we decided to go
with an Alpha boiler
http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/products.html

Only time will tell whether we've made the right choice or not but if the
manufacturer is confident enough to give a 3-year warranty I reckon it's
worth a try.

Mogweed.

You pay cheap you get cheap!

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:25:35 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:

You pay cheap you get cheap!

That doesn't always follow..

I was trying to avoid a condenser boiler as I feel these are more
prone to failure.

Who told you that?

There is more to go wrong.

There isn't much more to go wrong, just the condensate trap and waste, which
are usually pretty reliable. The rest of the machine is pretty similar to a
non-condensing modern boiler in terms of the number of sensors, circuit
boards, valves, fans etc.

Christian.

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:36:28 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:

I was trying to avoid a condenser boiler as I feel these are more
prone to failure.

Who told you that?

There is more to go wrong.

There isn't. The controls are the same for both. There is only a
condensate pipe that is extra.

You HAVE to fit a condensing
boiler!!!! From April 1st.

No. There is a points system in place.
If an installation scores ober
(Or is it under) a certain number of
points you can fit an ordinary boiler.

To fit a non-condensing boiler you have to really have no option whatsoever.
It is very difficult to justify a non-condensing boiler. Get a one piece
heat exchanger condensing job, and that is not the BIASI. Look at Glow Worm
and Ideal Istar. Don't skimp. Reasonable price good design ed condensing
boilers is the way forwards.


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"[news]" wrote in message
...
Doctor Evil wrote:

snip

They are the budget range and "plumbers"
are passing them off for being
better.

They are indeed budget boilers but some at B&Q / Wickes are not and are
sold accordingly priced and based on suitability rather than price+markup.

The plumbers I mention are all gas service engineers with ACS / ACOPS /
CORGI / LPG / ETC. all with boat / caravan & industrial qualifications.

guess again

I guessed right in the first place. Plumbers are good for drains and
gutters.


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And 6 years warranty on the hot water heat exchanger.

The CH circuit includes a "filter".

Keith G. Powell

When I asked that exact same question on here about 6 weeks back I got no
replies but on subsequently asking around locally, I found out that the
B&Q boilers were cheap enough but don't last long and so we decided to go
with an Alpha boiler
http://www.alpha-boilers.com/products/products.html

Only time will tell whether we've made the right choice or not but if the
manufacturer is confident enough to give a 3-year warranty I reckon it's
worth a try.

Mogweed.

"Keith G. Powell" wrote in message
...

And 6 years warranty on the hot water heat exchanger.

The CH circuit includes a "filter".

It is a cyclone with trap. Please do not top post as it throws the thread
out. thanks.

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"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

I have no experience on their boilers, and so they may be okay, but
personally I'd recommend avoiding Biasi radiators like the plague. Lifetime
is over the guarantee period but that's about all whereas Stelrads on the
same system last forever.

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:25:35 +0000 (UTC), "John"
wrote:

You pay cheap you get cheap!

That doesn't always follow..

IMHO it does with the ones mentioned

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:

Does anyone know if the "Grab a granny" discount still applies on a
wednesday and whether it applies to B&Q warehouses? That'd get me a
further 10% off if I can find a granny..


Doesn't apply at warehouses, or if you need to order IME.

Regards
Capitol

"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:59:14 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


That could be a good metric for boiler reliability: if the manufacturer
is
willing to
underwrite the continued operation of a boiler for three years perhas
they
have
confidence in their product. Vaiilant offer a two year warranty. I can't
help but think
you get what you pay for with boilers, and a higher up-front cost might
be
the
lesser of two evils, against the costs and sheer inconvenience of boiler
breakdowns.

Well, I have been searching on Google and the impression that there
are reliability issues withValiant boilers.


I heard that there were problems with the first Turbomax models but that
they have ironed them out. It might be a good idea to buy a boiler that
has been around for at least three years, to benefit from from any teething
troubles that show up being fixed. Just an idea,

Andy.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:13:00 +0100, Mike wrote:


"s--p--o--n--i--x" wrote in message
...
Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

B&Q have some very good deals on Biasi boilers (Presumably due to the
exchange rate)

They appear to be well made, very compact and have some versatile
flueing options.

I have no experience on their boilers, and so they may be okay, but
personally I'd recommend avoiding Biasi radiators like the plague. Lifetime
is over the guarantee period but that's about all whereas Stelrads on the
same system last forever.

Having worked on a Biasi - My overall impression was that it were average
typical low end design with a 'tinny' feel to its construction.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

There was a letter in the IMechE journal about 3 months back. As best I
can recall it (and my recollection might not be precise), the CEng
author had compared the life expectancy of condensing & non-condensing
boilers.

The average life expectancy of the condensing boilers was
significantly shorter, to the extent that if one took account of the
total life cycle energy use, in manufacturing the new boiler and
consumed in using the boiler, non-condensing boilers were more energy
efficient.

The problem was mainly in the alloys used for the heat exchangers and
the effect of the acidic condensate.

This is largely irrelevant since gas boilers must be condensers (with a
few exceptions, as above), & oil burners will follow soon.

The problem was mainly in the alloys used for the heat exchangers and
the effect of the acidic condensate.

But was it comparing modern condensing boilers or the abominations that were
made a few years ago?

Christian.

"Aidan" wrote in message
oups.com...

There was a letter in the IMechE
journal about 3 months back. As best I
can recall it (and my recollection might
not be precise), the CEng
author had compared the life expectancy
of condensing & non-condensing
boilers.

The average life expectancy of the
condensing boilers was significantly
shorter, to the extent that if one took
account of the total life cycle energy
use, in manufacturing the new boiler and
consumed in using the boiler, non-condensing
boilers were more energy efficient.

What was he comparing? There are some one piece stainless exchanger, top
mounted burner boilers around - the Glow Worm is a good well priced one.
They last, and last well. The new aluminium silicon coated exchangers have
overcome problems. It is like comparing a RR with Lada, as that is what
these shock, horror, fury reports do. If you compared a Lada with a RR
people would laugh at you. Ignorance of condensing technology makes people
believe complete nonsense. The biggest offender is the Daily Telegraph with
some dickhead named Howell.

The problem now is that the makers have tarted up their existing ranges and
installed secondary heat exchangers on them to get them through the regs.
Look at Ideal. The old Classic now has a secondary heat exchanger (cast-iron
main exchanger), and the fan in the flue hot flue gasses. Yet the new
superior one
piece exchanger ICOS is not that much more expensive and has the fan in the
cool air intake. One piece exchangers, top mounted burners are also self
cleaning. Reports of bad condensers will continue giving the good boilers a
bad name. One year ago few condensers had secondary exchangers, now most
do. We have gone backwards in some respects.

The problem was mainly in the alloys
used for the heat exchangers and
the effect of the acidic condensate.

Silicon coating has eliminated that problem.


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As best as I can recall it was the recorded life expectancy, so this
suggests figures collected over 7, 10 or 15 years. A bullet-proof
kryptonite mythical boiler coming on the market now would take several
years to affect the data.

Like I said, it's some months ago, I've probably binned the magazine
and can't be bothered to look for it.

Dr. Evil says that "Silicon coating has eliminated that problem."
Which brochure did he read that in, I wonder?

Hopefully, by the time my recent non-condenser expires, the technology
will have improved & proved itself.

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:48:05 GMT, (s--p--o--n--i--x)
wrote:

Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

Whilst on the subject I am weighing up whether to DIY or get someone
in to fit.

Very roughly, how much does it cost to have a boiler replaced?

sponix

s--p--o--n--i--x wrote:
On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 10:48:05 GMT, (s--p--o--n--i--x)
wrote:

Been doing a trawl for a replacement combi boiler...

Whilst on the subject I am weighing up whether to DIY or get someone
in to fit.

Very roughly, how much does it cost to have a boiler replaced?


My quote for just a replacing (and no repositioning) of boiler and cylinder
came to 1700+VAT from a plumber I trust. But I do want it repositioning and
new rads, a couple of rads moved and the towel radiator run off the HW side
of the boiler.... and now its about twice that! I gather that this may be a
little pricey but since I'm condfident that the work will be done well I'm
willing to pay the extra.

Cheers

Rob

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:55:26 +0000 (UTC), (Rob
Summers) wrote:

My quote for just a replacing (and no repositioning) of boiler and cylinder
came to 1700+VAT from a plumber I trust.

Does that include the boiler?

In message .com,
Aidan writes
There was a letter in the IMechE journal about 3 months back. As best I
can recall it (and my recollection might not be precise), the CEng
author had compared the life expectancy of condensing & non-condensing
boilers.

The average life expectancy of the condensing boilers was
significantly shorter, to the extent that if one took account of the
total life cycle energy use, in manufacturing the new boiler and
consumed in using the boiler, non-condensing boilers were more energy
efficient.

The problem was mainly in the alloys used for the heat exchangers and
the effect of the acidic condensate.

This is largely irrelevant since gas boilers must be condensers (with a
few exceptions, as above), & oil burners will follow soon.

I would be very interested in a copy of that if you can email or direct
me to it

--
geoff

In message .com,
Aidan writes
As best as I can recall it was the recorded life expectancy, so this
suggests figures collected over 7, 10 or 15 years. A bullet-proof
kryptonite mythical boiler coming on the market now would take several
years to affect the data.

Like I said, it's some months ago, I've probably binned the magazine
and can't be bothered to look for it.

Dr. Evil says that "Silicon coating has eliminated that problem."
Which brochure did he read that in, I wonder?

Ah, but the laws of physics in dIMMworld are different to those in the
real world

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message .com,
Aidan writes
There was a letter in the IMechE journal about 3 months back. As best I
can recall it (and my recollection might not be precise), the CEng
author had compared the life expectancy of condensing & non-condensing
boilers.

The average life expectancy of the condensing boilers was
significantly shorter, to the extent that if one took account of the
total life cycle energy use, in manufacturing the new boiler and
consumed in using the boiler, non-condensing boilers were more energy
efficient.

The problem was mainly in the alloys used for the heat exchangers and
the effect of the acidic condensate.

This is largely irrelevant since gas boilers must be condensers (with a
few exceptions, as above), & oil burners will follow soon.

I would be very interested in a copy of that if you can email or direct
me to it

Maxie, it is nonsense. Ti claim all condensing boilers are crap is just
plain nonsense.


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I dug a hole for myself there.

Search of the PE archives produced the letter, text below. Apologies if
my vague recollection differed significantly from what it said.

Boiling up problems for the future

My home gas central heating boiler is coming due for replacement after
23 years of trouble-free service. Investigating what is new on the
market turned into a potential nightmare and I have pieced together
comments from five supplier "experts" to arrive at the following
picture.

Some five years ago the government issued a ruling that all new gas
boilers must be certified as able to achieve an 80% thermal efficiency
rating. Design changes including removing the pilot light and replacing
this with an electronic ignition system allowed the makers to arrive at
the required 80% efficiency.

The government has now issued a new ruling that domestic gas central
heating boilers must be certified as capable of achieving 92% thermal
efficiency and all new boiler sales from 1 April must be capable of
this performance. To achieve the 92% target the makers have made major
design changes including the introduction of a secondary heat
exchanger. The gas burners directly heat the main heat exchanger as
normal after which the exhaust gases flow over the secondary heat
exchanger. Some makers for cost reasons have made the secondary heat
exchanger out of cast aluminium; more expensive models use stainless
steel.

With the new boiler working at maximum heat output rating it seems that
92% thermal efficiency can be demonstrated and so the manufacturers
have gone into production. All new boilers sold from 1 April will
therefore have to be to the new design standard.

However, the field service reports are indicating a domestic disaster.
As the new boilers run hotter, the time between gas burns is extended
and significant condensation is developing between burns on the
secondary heat exchanger. At the subsequent firing, the exhaust gases
with all their acidic elements combined with the condensation quickly
start to develop corrosion around the heat exchanger. The supplier
reports indicate that aluminium heat exchangers need replacing after
just a few months of service with stainless steel units lasting around
one year.

Looking at the boilers as a whole the manufacturers, so the suppliers
say, are hoping for a lifespan of five years. Of course when the heat
exchangers start to leak the secondary damage to the boiler and
surrounding area can be expensive to correct. Comparing this scenario
against my 23-year-old boiler still running perfectly well, any energy
efficiency comparison has to take an overall picture into account. The
new design will need energy to produce regular replacement of major
parts, plus energy needed in producing a new replacement boiler every
five years.

Looking at costs, the new boiler design is significantly more expensive
at first cost than earlier designs, plus the replacement parts plus the
secondary damage repair costs put the new design at a disadvantage.

The above represents what I have been told by suppliers. I should like
to hear what mechanical design engineers working in this field think
about this situation. Do they believe a long-term solution is possible
and if so what will this entail?

A. Bunting, Member (of the IMechE)

This produced a number of responses, some of which I've copied. I'll
e-mail it.
A 5 year heat exchanger life is a lot worse than I'd thought he'd said.
The correspondent says that often isn't being achieved.

In article .com,
Aidan wrote:
Search of the PE archives produced the letter, text below.
Apologies if my vague recollection differed significantly from
what it said.

It's so laced with inaccuracies that I don't know why any mag would
print it. Potterton Netaheats had electronic ignition 20 years ago,
the required efficiency is not 92% and condensing boilers with
secondary heat exchangers are generally reckoned to be a poor
substitute for the real thing.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]