Anna Kettle wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:16:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


(ii) only about 1% of buildings of that age survive if that. The rest
all burnt down or rotted away.


Which is a good argument for building regulations. Its the Grand
Designs of the past which are still standing today. Joe Public lived
in the most basic accommodation that his (land)lord could get away
with providing. At least nowadays Wimpey & Barrett have some
restraints on their build quality


this is a bit of a popular misconception. Victorian houses do not
suffer from damp when properly maintained. The common occurrence of
damp is precisely because so many have been subject to inappropriate
works and failure to do basic maintenance. Damp is not a problem
inherent in their design in any way.

Actaully, having lived in them they do


The most basic Victorian houses were crappily built, but houses built
for artisans and clerks were generally reasonably good construction
quality in Victorian times and any damp is your own problem. You
didn't happen to have emulsion paint and wallpaper on all of the walls
perchance?


No, but 'most basic' probably applies to most of the victorian houses I
have inhabited. Single brick, no damp course, rooting suspended pine
floors due to rising damp, '2 up. 2 downer's' with usually an extension
kitchen and bathroom tacked on the back.

Anna

~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

Anna Kettle wrote:

On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 11:04:22 +0100, "Doctor Evil"
wrote:


These days you will not get away without a rigid foundation


True


so why all this
lime mortar, that is good for old building that move on poor foundations


True


but pretty inappropriate, and expensive, for a modern building.


Why do you consider it inappropriate? There is nothing inherently
wrong with using lime for modern rigid building

At the moment its expensive compared to concrete. Delivered to site in
silos the cost of lime mortar is (from memory) four times the price of
concrete.

If lime becomes more widely used there will be increasing economies of
scale and also lime takes much less energy to produce than does
concrete which will definitely be in its favour as oil prices
increase, which they will.


I agree with Anna here. I built a brick wall with some cement and lime,
and when I ran out of cement one day, practically all lime. It worked,
although a cap I made on one pillar has frosted up a bit on the high
lime stuff - its too porous I guess and so the water got in..
Its a perfectly useable material for bricklaying.

Mind you, bricks are high energy thimngs too, but then they don't half
last. There is a lot of tudor brick around even today.
Anna


~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 23:03:29 +0100, "Mike" wrote:

paint ?

Poor at preserving timber (it's just a skin - penetrate that and it rots
just the same).

Then ensure it doesn't. In any case the paint on some of the frames on the
farmhouse I am doing up looks like it's been there a very long time indeed
without attention.



It's also horrible environmentally - most paints, and
pretty much all of the external ones, are either toxic resins, toxic
pigments, or full of solvents.

Modern ones quite possibly. If you make your own then far less so.


Personally I like to use larch, if I'm not using oak. Pick the right
board and the stuff's damn near pure plastic resin anyway.

True. Though there are non-temperate zone woods which do the trick as well.

On 7 Jun 2005 11:10:14 -0700, wrote:

What I meant by real linseed oil pain is paint made with real
linseed oil.

Yes, but the _really_ real stuff is lead-dried. 8-)

The lead drier works better with high humidity, manganese driers with
low humidity. Lead-dried oil is also more flexible and is essential if
you're trying to make oilcloth. The best formulation (and that used for
centuries) is a mix of both. A mixture is the one that avoids the
shrinkage problems.

If you're using it for rifle stocking, you also care about the residual
acid levels, which many of the supposed "authentic" makers are somewhat
lax about.

For this reason it is permitted to use it on
grade 1 listed buildings with permission from English Heritage.

There are very few buildings where it's important to use lead paint for
authenticity. However there are rather more bits of engineering that
aren't "buildings", where it's much more appropriate. Trying to convince
English Heritage (or Cadw, in this case) of this need for a non-building
is a whole new can of worms.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 11:10:14 -0700, wrote:
There are very few buildings where it's important to use lead paint for
authenticity. However there are rather more bits of engineering that
aren't "buildings", where it's much more appropriate. Trying to convince
English Heritage (or Cadw, in this case) of this need for a non-building
is a whole new can of worms.

I know of a couple of Lincolnshire windmills, the Maud Foster, Boston
and the Five Sail, Alford, that use lead paint on their sails.

The Sweedish Allback TiO2 + manganese drier linseed paint that Holkham
Paints sell comes with a manufacturer's recommendation of a 14 year
maintenance cycle - a coat of linseed oil after seven years then a coat
of paint after a further seven years. This lack of labour, plus the
reduced risk of timber rot under a truely breathable paint, plus the
environmentally relatively benign ingredients, gives it a clear
advantage over alkyd paints. The even greater durability of lead paint
justifies its use in extreme situations such as windmill sails where
small children are unlikely to chew it. But I wouldn't recommend it
for straw bales - where is this thread going?

In message ,
writes

Incidentally to get back to the initial topic, I think a standard bale
is 16" wide, so with an 1" od daub on either side the overall
thickness would be 18"?

18" wide he-)

I rather doubt the packing density available from a conventional baler
would allow such a wall to support anything other than itself. I suppose
some form of *glue* could be introduced during the baling operation much
as we currently inject additives for round baling silage.

A barn stored 2 storey stack of bales sinks by at least 150mm. This may
be once only but I don't keep them long enough to find out.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

In message ,
writes

Incidentally to get back to the initial topic, I think a standard bale
is 16" wide, so with an 1" od daub on either side the overall
thickness would be 18"?


18" wide he-)

I rather doubt the packing density available from a conventional baler
would allow such a wall to support anything other than itself. I suppose
some form of *glue* could be introduced during the baling operation much
as we currently inject additives for round baling silage.

A barn stored 2 storey stack of bales sinks by at least 150mm. This may
be once only but I don't keep them long enough to find out.


I think that is probably when they dry out fully.

However it would be interesting to see what strenght a baled wall has.


regards

On 2005-06-08, Tim Lamb wrote:
I rather doubt the packing density available from a conventional baler
would allow such a wall to support anything other than itself. I suppose
some form of *glue* could be introduced during the baling operation much
as we currently inject additives for round baling silage.

It seems that the ideal is to get the farmer making the bales to set the
baling machine to maximum density and when you build you have largish
(several inches) settlement gaps above doors and windows which you fill
in later.

This web page:

http://www.strawbalefutures.org.uk/projects.htm

shows a two-storey loadbearing (ie. no wooden frame) strawbale house
that was built in Ireland a few years ago so it is possible (assuming
the house is still standing! :-)).


Asher.

--
asher http://domestic1.sjc.ox.ac.uk/~ahoskins/
asher AT crumbly DOT
[life in plastic, it's fantastic!] freeserve DOT co DOT uk

In message , Asher Hoskins
writes
On 2005-06-08, Tim Lamb wrote:
I rather doubt the packing density available from a conventional baler
would allow such a wall to support anything other than itself. I suppose
some form of *glue* could be introduced during the baling operation much
as we currently inject additives for round baling silage.

It seems that the ideal is to get the farmer making the bales to set the
baling machine to maximum density and when you build you have largish
(several inches) settlement gaps above doors and windows which you fill
in later.

Conventional balers are already set fairly tight for wheat straw. The
principle is to *squeeze* the bale leaving the machine which back
pressures the one being assembled in the chamber. Much greater densities
are available for mini Hesston bales but these are not man portable.

This web page:

http://www.strawbalefutures.org.uk/projects.htm

shows a two-storey loadbearing (ie. no wooden frame) strawbale house
that was built in Ireland a few years ago so it is possible (assuming
the house is still standing! :-)).

They look like conventional bales!

regards
--
Tim Lamb

On 6 Jun 2005 14:55:55 -0700, wrote:

You want an example of bent oak? Go he
http://www.greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/
and click on Museum Gridshell
There's a rather nice oak bridge on that website too.

I don't know of methods of preserving softwoods without messing up the
environment - why not just use the naturally durable softwoods such as
larch, Douglas fir, Western Cedar and, interestingly, that much beloved
of subusban gardens, Leylandii?

Hi,

Copper napthanates (Cuprinol Green) and borates aren't too bad in this
respect.

cheers,
Pete

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:16:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I had a whole chimney (completely unrendered) sitting in wet clay, and
it sucked water up and rotted anything it touched.

Rising damp is a fact, and your religion will not make it go away.

Hi,

What might have been a factor is soot deposits in the chimney
containing hygroscopic salts. Had a quick search and found an
interesting post:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.pyrotechnics/msg/3a3fb2069864801a?hl=en

Maybe if it only occurs with wood soot it would explain why loads of
vic houses in London built on clay don't suffer damp chimneys in the
same way.

In any case, lime mortar can be quite porous so even if the bricks
don't suck up damp the mortar might do, though porosity isn't
necessarily the same as absorbency.

BTW what wood were the sole plates of the old house made out of?

cheers,
Pete.

In message ,
writes

In Oregon conventional bales of grass straw (grown for seed) are re
compressed for export to Japan with a hydraulic press.

There will probably be a job for some such device compacting waste
plastic on farms shortly. (are we allowed thread drift on this group?)

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Pete C wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:16:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


I had a whole chimney (completely unrendered) sitting in wet clay, and
it sucked water up and rotted anything it touched.

Rising damp is a fact, and your religion will not make it go away.


Hi,

What might have been a factor is soot deposits in the chimney
containing hygroscopic salts. Had a quick search and found an
interesting post:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.pyrotechnics/msg/3a3fb2069864801a?hl=en

Maybe if it only occurs with wood soot it would explain why loads of
vic houses in London built on clay don't suffer damp chimneys in the
same way.

In any case, lime mortar can be quite porous so even if the bricks
don't suck up damp the mortar might do, though porosity isn't
necessarily the same as absorbency.


It was soft 16th-17h centurey brick set directly in wet cvaly and the
efflorescnece came up about 4-8" depending on whether it had rained in
te last few days. It had rotted the floor boards in contact with it and
the skirtings as well

BTW what wood were the sole plates of the old house made out of?


Oak of course.

We had sever problems in many areas as it transoierd The house had had
the opute plinth injected, and here damage was ionfined to breaches in
te outer skin roof and bargeboards - i.e. not rising damp, but penetrative.

However there were several internal walls built in the same way, and
these had not been injected: Here there was considerable rising damp
which made a mess of skirtings and wooden floors, and in a colder areas
appeared to have rotted parts of the sole plates from beneath.

However it was hard to be sure, because the moisture levels in the old
house were so hight that we had to run a lot of heating to keep it dry
internally, and that probably meant condensation within the old and
colder parst of the structure.

Naturally it had been repaired extended and bodged with a selection of
more or less inapropiate techniques over the last 150 years



I can however vouch for the use of supermarket shopping bags (tescos
mainly) as a crude damp proof membrane...
cheers,
Pete.

Pete C wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 03:16:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

I had a whole chimney (completely unrendered) sitting in wet clay, and
it sucked water up and rotted anything it touched.

Rising damp is a fact, and your religion will not make it go away.

Hi,

What might have been a factor is soot deposits in the chimney
containing hygroscopic salts. Had a quick search and found


yeah, there are a few possibilities, but I didnt think he was in the
mood.

Rising damp does exist, and does happen, but the odds of any case of
ground level damp being rising are very small. There is increasing
evidence that indicates that almost all cases diagnosed as rising damp
are in reality not rising. Which makes dpcs fairly pointless, even in
cases such as these which have long been interpreted as rising damp.

Salt contamination causes absorption of water from the air, and is a
particular problem with chimneys.

Condensation can occur when the bottom is in contact with a source of
cold, eg wet ground.

Theres also penetrating damp, sometimes due either to the difficulty of
repointing at or below ground.

I also question the exact mechanism of the common occurrence of green
at the base of walls, often due to rain bouncing off the ground. If it
were no different to rain, one would not expect to see the green, since
it would dry almost as quickly after rain. I suspect the rain bounce
may be bouncing water containing salts and dirt onto the wall, which
are hygroscopic and plant food. Having this on the outside of the wall
will worsen the odds of the inner side staying dry.


NT

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Asher Hoskins
writes
On 2005-06-08, Tim Lamb wrote:
I rather doubt the packing density available from a conventional baler
would allow such a wall to support anything other than itself. I suppose
some form of *glue* could be introduced during the baling operation much
as we currently inject additives for round baling silage.

It seems that the ideal is to get the farmer making the bales to set the
baling machine to maximum density and when you build you have largish
(several inches) settlement gaps above doors and windows which you fill
in later.

Conventional balers are already set fairly tight for wheat straw. The
principle is to *squeeze* the bale leaving the machine which back
pressures the one being assembled in the chamber. Much greater densities
are available for mini Hesston bales but these are not man portable.

Are these the big square ones?

In message ,
writes

There will probably be a job for some such device compacting waste
plastic on farms shortly.

Have you tried throwing old silage sheet through a baler?

As I said before I cannot see the problem with simple plastics, unless
I am missing something obvious about them, they are made from oil and
are basically long chain hydrocarbons. The agricultural waste plastic
will be similar from packaging, silage sheets and containers. As long
as chemical containers are emptied and washed then the only
contaminants are likely to be oils, biomass and soil.

I cannot see why these could not be co fired in a coal fired power
station capable of burning bitumous coal cleanly is, say, a 1%
portion.

From earlier discussion it is the chlorinated varieties which cause the
problem. Woven polyester sheet from one trip fertiliser packaging is
particularly bulky.

Perhaps an alternative should be used?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In message , Ian
Stirling writes

Conventional balers are already set fairly tight for wheat straw. The
principle is to *squeeze* the bale leaving the machine which back
pressures the one being assembled in the chamber. Much greater densities
are available for mini Hesston bales but these are not man portable.

Are these the big square ones?

Biggish.

Hesstons are BIGGER.

I have a field of hay bales. Now who was looking for bale handling and
stacking experience?

regards

--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Ian
Stirling writes

Conventional balers are already set fairly tight for wheat straw. The
principle is to *squeeze* the bale leaving the machine which back
pressures the one being assembled in the chamber. Much greater
densities
are available for mini Hesston bales but these are not man portable.

Are these the big square ones?

Biggish.

Hesstons are BIGGER.

I have a field of hay bales.

You do ? We've had nowhere near enough sun yet.

In message , Mike
writes

I have a field of hay bales.

You do ? We've had nowhere near enough sun yet.

Ah! This is droughted Hertfordshire. Baled up on the one cloudy day of
the week. The moisture meter says it is fit to store but I have doubts.
There is rather a lot of sap in grass this early in the year and they
are temporarily field stacked to ward off the rain.

regards



--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:

Ah! This is droughted Hertfordshire. Baled up on the one cloudy
day of the week. The moisture meter says it is fit to store but
I have doubts. There is rather a lot of sap in grass this early
in the year and they are temporarily field stacked to ward off
the rain.

Same here in Herefordshire. The local dairy farmer
is cutting..... he cuts in the morning, turns in the
afternoon, baled and away the next day, fertiliser
the day after that..... then sheep if he can find
anyone daft enough to be trying to make a living
that way. [1]

He doesn't have a continuous connection through all
his fields, and I think he finds it easier to keep
his cows near and transport green fodder into them.

[1] I wouldn't like to try and make a living off
the land these days.

[1b] The soft fruit farmers around here are managing
to beat the weather (and early imports) with acres
of polythene tunnels. Good luck to them... but
the bloody Incomer Yuppies have still formed an
AntiPolythene Eyesore Action Group.

--
Tony Williams.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , Mike
writes

I have a field of hay bales.

You do ? We've had nowhere near enough sun yet.

Ah! This is droughted Hertfordshire. Baled up on the one cloudy day of
the week. The moisture meter says it is fit to store but I have doubts.
There is rather a lot of sap in grass this early in the year and they
are temporarily field stacked

to ward off the rain.

Which if the weather there is it is anthing like it is here today, possibly
didn't work too well :-(

"Tony Williams" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Lamb wrote:

Ah! This is droughted Hertfordshire. Baled up on the one cloudy
day of the week. The moisture meter says it is fit to store but
I have doubts. There is rather a lot of sap in grass this early
in the year and they are temporarily field stacked to ward off
the rain.

Same here in Herefordshire. The local dairy farmer
is cutting..... he cuts in the morning, turns in the
afternoon, baled and away the next day, fertiliser
the day after that..... then sheep if he can find
anyone daft enough to be trying to make a living
that way. [1]

He doesn't have a continuous connection through all
his fields, and I think he finds it easier to keep
his cows near and transport green fodder into them.

Bet the cows don't agree with him on that :-)


[1] I wouldn't like to try and make a living off
the land these days.

You have to have a real job and treat farming as a sideline.


[1b] The soft fruit farmers around here are managing
to beat the weather (and early imports) with acres
of polythene tunnels. Good luck to them... but
the bloody Incomer Yuppies have still formed an
AntiPolythene Eyesore Action Group.

Somebody should shoot them ! They'll be moaning about the lambs bleating
next.

In message , Mike
writes

to ward off the rain.

Which if the weather there is it is anthing like it is here today, possibly
didn't work too well :-(

Obviously only a local effect. Still no rain here.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
news
In message , Mike
writes

to ward off the rain.

Which if the weather there is it is anthing like it is here today,
possibly
didn't work too well :-(

Obviously only a local effect. Still no rain here.

Jammy Southerners :-)

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
news
In message , Mike
writes

to ward off the rain.

Which if the weather there is it is anthing like it is here today,
possibly
didn't work too well :-(

Obviously only a local effect. Still no rain here.

Jammy Southerners :-)


And it absolutely poured here overnight. And it's freezing. The lambs are
really ****ed off and I don't think we've be having the sheep shorn quite
yet.