We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5 atmospheres
I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use white plastic (I
do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces the number of
connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.

"Philip Wagstaff" wrote in message
...
We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5
atmospheres
I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use white plastic
(I
do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces the number of
connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.

Well I always use plastic (the white stuff is probably Speedfit) and it's
fine but any plumber who can't fit copper pipes without them "inevitably
leaking" should be avoided like the plague.

Philip Wag staff wrote:

We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5 atmospheres
I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use white plastic (I
do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces the number of
connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.

No harm is using plastic, but your plumber is talking out of an orifice
other than his mouth regarding copper!

Mains pressure hot or cold water is typically going to be over 3 bar
(aka atmospheres), so the output pressure of your pump is not
particularly high in comparison, copper pipe seems to have been able to
handle mains pressure water for many years without any leakage problems.

--
Cheers,

John.

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Philip

I am not an advocate of plastic pipe usage, but advantages can be:

Smooth long radius bends used in routing plastic rather than elbows used in
copper cause less pressure loss in feed pipes.
The lack of necessity for elbows means less joints, therefore less
likelihood of joint leaks developing in future - that's probably what your
plumber meant. Copper joints, if made correctly, with correct pipe support
and allowance for thermal movement will not "inevitably leak".
If between floors, the pipe can be routed through holes in the centre of the
floor joists rather than along notches in the top - better for the joist and
less likely to suffer fixing nail damage in future.
The flexibility of the pipe allows for thermal expansion - important over
long runs.
Vibration from the shower pump will be better absorbed by plastic rather
than tranmitted around the house by copper.

From experience of poor plastic pipe installation I would recommend:

Make sure that joints are accessible if at all possible.
Make sure pipe is supported in line with manufacturer's instructions. Do
not accept the "washing line" type support where the points of support are
two wide and allow sagging of pipe. This leads to air locks - a real pain
in shower territory.
Try to impress upon the plumber the need to avoid air locks by choosing a
considered route (rather than just the easiest). This may cost a bit more,
but will make shower maintenance in future far more practical. If he
doesn't understand this then walk away.

Guess I've just convinced myself to go plastic in future!


HTH


Phil

He wants to use plastic because it's far quicker while charging you the
same amount. There's no great disadvantage to plastic, but the push-fit
joints are bigger and uglier. Copper looks a lot better, if done
competently.

The last shower pump I installed (Techflow) recommended plastic in
preference to copper because it reduces the noise transmitted along the
pipes from the pump.

Philip Wagstaff wrote:

We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5
atmospheres I think. We want copper pipes.
Why?

Philip Wagstaff wrote:
We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5 atmospheres
I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use white plastic (I
do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces the number of
connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.

In a previous posting a month or so ago I mentioned my brand new Barratt
house where I had three leaks in just over a year. What kind of plumbing
had Barratt installed? The kind of white plastic with push fittings, at
least a hundred on them on three bathrooms and the central heating. The
fittings are alleged (by the manufacturer) to last at least 20 years,
but I allege that a hundred push fittings on plastic pipes in a house is
a recipe for disaster. Plastic pipes - probably OK, it's the joins that
are going to pop.

On the continent (I've lived in Switzerland, Germany and have built in
France) plumbers arrive with rolls of copper or plastic pipes - not a
single hidden join in sight. Maybe you could propose to your plumber to
do the same.

In message , cs
wrote

In a previous posting a month or so ago I mentioned my brand new Barratt
house where I had three leaks in just over a year. What kind of plumbing
had Barratt installed? The kind of white plastic with push fittings, at
least a hundred on them on three bathrooms and the central heating. The
fittings are alleged (by the manufacturer) to last at least 20 years,
but I allege that a hundred push fittings on plastic pipes in a house is
a recipe for disaster. Plastic pipes - probably OK, it's the joins that
are going to pop.


Push fitting allow the unskilled labourer to complete the plumbing in a
cost effective way - the Barratt way..

--
Alan

On Sat, 28 May 2005 00:02:50 +0000, cs wrote:

Philip Wagstaff wrote:
We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5 atmospheres
I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use white plastic (I
do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces the number of
connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.

In a previous posting a month or so ago I mentioned my brand new Barratt
house where I had three leaks in just over a year. What kind of plumbing
had Barratt installed? The kind of white plastic with push fittings, at
least a hundred on them on three bathrooms and the central heating. The
fittings are alleged (by the manufacturer) to last at least 20 years,

....when installed and made correctly. BY far the commonest mistake is not
using inserts and not pushing the pipe in far enough. The joints
themselves are reliable in my experience.

but I allege that a hundred push fittings on plastic pipes in a house is
a recipe for disaster. Plastic pipes - probably OK, it's the joins that
are going to pop.

On the continent (I've lived in Switzerland, Germany and have built in
France) plumbers arrive with rolls of copper or plastic pipes - not a
single hidden join in sight. Maybe you could propose to your plumber to
do the same.

With planning few joints are needed when using plastic pipe over and
above those needed for branching and connecting.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Sat, 28 May 2005 02:21:26 +0100, Alan wrote:

In message , cs
wrote

In a previous posting a month or so ago I mentioned my brand new Barratt
house where I had three leaks in just over a year. What kind of plumbing
had Barratt installed? The kind of white plastic with push fittings, at
least a hundred on them on three bathrooms and the central heating. The
fittings are alleged (by the manufacturer) to last at least 20 years,
but I allege that a hundred push fittings on plastic pipes in a house is
a recipe for disaster. Plastic pipes - probably OK, it's the joins that
are going to pop.


Push fitting allow the unskilled labourer to complete the plumbing in a
cost effective way - the Barratt way..

Less skill but not no skill. I expect that H&S/insurance/nanny-state
considerations are making the use of flames difficult on site.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Ed Sirett wrote:

Less skill but not no skill.

Just google on IMM for examples of what can happen when used with no
skill ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Ed Sirett wrote:

Less skill but not no skill.

Just google on IMM for examples of
what can happen when used with no
skill ;-)

IMM did highlight cowboy DIYers, plumbers and poor quality fittings, and
especially ignorance of DIYers.





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Thanks for all your replies.
We've gone ahead with it using copper.

"Philip Wagstaff" wrote in message
...
We're having a power shower installed; ie shower with a pump 1.5
atmospheres I think. We want copper pipes. The plumber urges us to use
white plastic (I do not know what type) pipes because he says it reduces
the number of connections which, he says, will inevitably leak Does he
have a point?
We'd appreciate knowledgeable comments/advice.