Hi

We've moved into a house with a Glowworm Spacesaver 80B Mk 2 boiler which
has two problems. Firstly, it's noisy, banging away like nobody's business,
which I guess is kettling so I can hopefully fix that with various chemicals
and a good flush. But of more immediate concern is that is sometimes trips
the main RCD for the house, not an individual circuit breaker, but the one
for the whole house, so I guess this is due to earth leakage. I don't think
it's the CH/HW pumps (1 of each - strange setup), and when switching off
sometimes I think the gas valves makes lots of rapid switching noises. Or
could it be the timer? It seems to do it at no particular time, so not due
to timer trying to switch on/off boiler for example.

The boiler seems to be fairly simple electrically with a transformer, a
thermostat, a gas valve and very little else!

Any ideas? Or is it best to bin it and get a new boiler which I really don't
want to do at this stage, though it's over 20 years old now.

Thanks

Jonathan

It seems to do it at no particular time, so not due to timer trying
to switch on/off boiler for example.

How do you know it is the boiler causing the trip?

Christian.

Fair point, process of elimination. Only happens when the boiler is on, more
so when the heating is on.
I suppose it could be something else but as the boiler is on for 2 x 1 hr
slots and it only occurs during these 1 hr slots, and having eliminated the
pumps that leaves the boiler, which also generates a load of RF noise BTW...
yet to determine if that's on firing up or switching off though.

I guess I could be wrong but I'd be surprised.

Jonathan

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
It seems to do it at no particular time, so not due to timer trying
to switch on/off boiler for example.

How do you know it is the boiler causing the trip?

Christian.

On Thu, 26 May 2005 08:43:27 +0100, "Jonathan" . wrote:

Fair point, process of elimination. Only happens when the boiler is on, more
so when the heating is on.
I suppose it could be something else but as the boiler is on for 2 x 1 hr
slots and it only occurs during these 1 hr slots, and having eliminated the
pumps that leaves the boiler, which also generates a load of RF noise BTW...
yet to determine if that's on firing up or switching off though.

I guess I could be wrong but I'd be surprised.

Jonathan


I had a product from this range.

Considering the age, I would dump it. Probably it needs a new
thermostat, maybe a new gas valve after that, and .....

It's only 65% efficient, so by the time you've thrown good money after
bad, you can have put in a new condensing boiler with 90% efficiency
and be in a far better position.




--

..andy

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The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:47:27 +0100, wrote:

Hi

We've moved into a house with a Glowworm Spacesaver 80B Mk 2 boiler which
has two problems. Firstly, it's noisy, banging away like nobody's business,
which I guess is kettling so I can hopefully fix that with various chemicals
and a good flush. But of more immediate concern is that is sometimes trips
the main RCD for the house, not an individual circuit breaker, but the one
for the whole house, so I guess this is due to earth leakage. I don't think
it's the CH/HW pumps (1 of each - strange setup), and when switching off
sometimes I think the gas valves makes lots of rapid switching noises. Or
could it be the timer? It seems to do it at no particular time, so not due
to timer trying to switch on/off boiler for example.

The boiler seems to be fairly simple electrically with a transformer, a
thermostat, a gas valve and very little else!

Any ideas? Or is it best to bin it and get a new boiler which I really don't
want to do at this stage, though it's over 20 years old now.

If you are really sure that the boiler is tripping the electrics then it
is probably not worth fixing any other problems.

The only chemical IME that will make the slightest difference is the
FERNOX noise silencer gel.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:47:27 +0100, wrote:

Hi

We've moved into a house with a Glowworm Spacesaver 80B Mk 2 boiler
which
has two problems. Firstly, it's noisy, banging away like nobody's
business,
which I guess is kettling so I can hopefully fix that with various
chemicals
and a good flush. But of more immediate concern is that is sometimes
trips
the main RCD for the house, not an individual circuit breaker, but the
one
for the whole house, so I guess this is due to earth leakage. I don't
think
it's the CH/HW pumps (1 of each - strange setup), and when switching off
sometimes I think the gas valves makes lots of rapid switching noises.
Or
could it be the timer? It seems to do it at no particular time, so not
due
to timer trying to switch on/off boiler for example.

The boiler seems to be fairly simple electrically with a transformer, a
thermostat, a gas valve and very little else!

Any ideas? Or is it best to bin it and get a new boiler which I really
don't
want to do at this stage, though it's over 20 years old now.

If you are really sure that the boiler is tripping the electrics then it
is probably not worth fixing any other problems.

The only chemical IME that will make the slightest difference is the
FERNOX noise silencer gel.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html



The only reason we don;t want to replace it currently is it's in the garage
and we're planning to extend over the garage, so we don't want to have to
pay for it to be installed twice if you see what I mean. Would be nice to
keep it going until we get the extension done.

Jonathan

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:47:27 +0100, wrote:

Hi

We've moved into a house with a Glowworm Spacesaver 80B Mk 2 boiler which
has two problems. Firstly, it's noisy, banging away like nobody's
business,
which I guess is kettling so I can hopefully fix that with various
chemicals
and a good flush. But of more immediate concern is that is sometimes
trips
the main RCD for the house, not an individual circuit breaker, but the
one
for the whole house, so I guess this is due to earth leakage. I don't
think
it's the CH/HW pumps (1 of each - strange setup), and when switching off
sometimes I think the gas valves makes lots of rapid switching noises. Or
could it be the timer? It seems to do it at no particular time, so not
due
to timer trying to switch on/off boiler for example.

The boiler seems to be fairly simple electrically with a transformer, a
thermostat, a gas valve and very little else!

Any ideas? Or is it best to bin it and get a new boiler which I really
don't
want to do at this stage, though it's over 20 years old now.

If you are really sure that the boiler is tripping the electrics then it
is probably not worth fixing any other problems.

The only chemical IME that will make the slightest difference is the
FERNOX noise silencer gel.


I'd suggest starting with a cleaning session using Sentinel Ferroquest or
X400 and allow it to "cook" for about a week if its kettling. If its REALLY
bad then maybe an acid clean is more appropriate. Whether you keep the old
boiler or replace it you will need a system clean anyway so it won't be
wasted affort.
If this sorts the banging then fine. Eds suggestion of the gel is ok but
treats (well) symptoms rather than removing the cause.

The space saver as you say has very little in it to cause electrical
problems. It does have a fairly low efficiency but not so bad that it
screams out for instant replacement if its working. The gas valve is 24volt
fed by the transformer so it will probably not be the source of an earth
leak. The chattering is not likely to be due to a fault with the valve but
something external. You are down to a limited range of possible earth leak
points here, such as the transformer, the thermostat, the wiring loom, the
suppressor if your boiler has one fitted. Have you got facilities to test
for earth leakage on the wiring? Remember that using a megger is to be done
with appropriate precautions (diconnection) for protection of electronic
components such as found in programmers, timers, Y-plan heads etc. Also the
use of two pumps suggests you may have a "pump plan" installation which has
an electronic control board (box) associated. Again this may have a bearing
on the rapid switching which you are hearing. Try taking a look at Grundfoss
website for details of this unit.

The earth leak may be completely unrelated to the heating system anyway. I
had a job a couple of years ago where I installed a replacement boiler to
existing Y plan controls. Three weeks later (during heavy rain) I was called
back as the house RCD tripped and by elimination, trying each MCB in turn,
the householder had proved it was caused by one downstairs ring main which
the boiler supply was fed from by an FCU. Of course the boiler was prime
suspect but on investigation I found that disconnecting from the FCU did not
remove the fault. To overcome the problem of no heat I rerouted the heating
supply to a different ring main circuit (couldn't do it now with part P
stupidity). I found there was rainwater running into the underfloor void,
from the flooded yard via a low airbrick, which must have contained a
Junction box, damaged cable or similar. The householder had recently relaid
his lounge floor with a fine finish hardwood. I isolated and made safe the
faulty ring and advised him to lift the floor, dry out the underfloor void
and look for the junction box or any possible damaged cable with a view to
carrying out a repair. I also gave him the name of a local electrical
contractor to carry out the follow up work.

"John" wrote in message
...

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 25 May 2005 09:47:27 +0100, wrote:

Hi

We've moved into a house with a Glowworm Spacesaver 80B Mk 2 boiler
which
has two problems. Firstly, it's noisy, banging away like nobody's
business,
which I guess is kettling so I can hopefully fix that with various
chemicals
and a good flush. But of more immediate concern is that is sometimes
trips
the main RCD for the house, not an individual circuit breaker, but the
one
for the whole house, so I guess this is due to earth leakage. I don't
think
it's the CH/HW pumps (1 of each - strange setup), and when switching
off
sometimes I think the gas valves makes lots of rapid switching noises.
Or
could it be the timer? It seems to do it at no particular time, so not
due
to timer trying to switch on/off boiler for example.

The boiler seems to be fairly simple electrically with a transformer, a
thermostat, a gas valve and very little else!

Any ideas? Or is it best to bin it and get a new boiler which I really
don't
want to do at this stage, though it's over 20 years old now.

If you are really sure that the boiler is tripping the electrics then it
is probably not worth fixing any other problems.

The only chemical IME that will make the slightest difference is the
FERNOX noise silencer gel.


I'd suggest starting with a cleaning session using Sentinel Ferroquest or
X400 and allow it to "cook" for about a week if its kettling. If its
REALLY
bad then maybe an acid clean is more appropriate. Whether you keep the old
boiler or replace it you will need a system clean anyway so it won't be
wasted affort.
If this sorts the banging then fine. Eds suggestion of the gel is ok but
treats (well) symptoms rather than removing the cause.

The space saver as you say has very little in it to cause electrical
problems. It does have a fairly low efficiency but not so bad that it
screams out for instant replacement if its working. The gas valve is
24volt
fed by the transformer so it will probably not be the source of an earth
leak. The chattering is not likely to be due to a fault with the valve but
something external. You are down to a limited range of possible earth leak
points here, such as the transformer, the thermostat, the wiring loom, the
suppressor if your boiler has one fitted. Have you got facilities to test
for earth leakage on the wiring? Remember that using a megger is to be
done
with appropriate precautions (diconnection) for protection of electronic
components such as found in programmers, timers, Y-plan heads etc. Also
the
use of two pumps suggests you may have a "pump plan" installation which
has
an electronic control board (box) associated. Again this may have a
bearing
on the rapid switching which you are hearing. Try taking a look at
Grundfoss
website for details of this unit.

The earth leak may be completely unrelated to the heating system anyway. I
had a job a couple of years ago where I installed a replacement boiler to
existing Y plan controls. Three weeks later (during heavy rain) I was
called
back as the house RCD tripped and by elimination, trying each MCB in turn,
the householder had proved it was caused by one downstairs ring main which
the boiler supply was fed from by an FCU. Of course the boiler was prime
suspect but on investigation I found that disconnecting from the FCU did
not
remove the fault. To overcome the problem of no heat I rerouted the
heating
supply to a different ring main circuit (couldn't do it now with part P
stupidity). I found there was rainwater running into the underfloor void,
from the flooded yard via a low airbrick, which must have contained a
Junction box, damaged cable or similar. The householder had recently
relaid
his lounge floor with a fine finish hardwood. I isolated and made safe the
faulty ring and advised him to lift the floor, dry out the underfloor void
and look for the junction box or any possible damaged cable with a view to
carrying out a repair. I also gave him the name of a local electrical
contractor to carry out the follow up work.




Thanks for the comprehensive reply!

Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to test for earth leakage.
Presumably I use a "megger" to test for that? Can they be bought cheaply?
Regarding the two pumps, we have a strange setup: the boiler has two flows
and two returns and you're supposed to just use one pair, however, when the
boiler was plumbed in (about 20 years ago) they used both pairs, one pump
per pair, and activate one pump for CH and the other for HW, or both for
both CH and HW! I'm still fairly confident it's the boiler, the power *only*
trips when the boiler is running. Initially I did think it was the CH pump
but since turning off the CH, it still happens, just less often. No CH
thermostat BTW, just the internal boiler one!

Is it possible to get a sort of multiple RCD that I wire the boiler into,
and the pumps and each is monitored and rather than trips, displays a count?
Would be very useful!

Thanks

Jonathan

"Jonathan" . wrote in message ...


SNIP





Thanks for the comprehensive reply!

Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to test for earth leakage.
Presumably I use a "megger" to test for that? Can they be bought cheaply?

Yes and reasonably so but if you don't know how to use one correctly it may
damage more than help.

Regarding the two pumps, we have a strange setup: the boiler has two flows
and two returns and you're supposed to just use one pair, however, when
the
boiler was plumbed in (about 20 years ago) they used both pairs, one pump
per pair, and activate one pump for CH and the other for HW, or both for
both CH and HW! I'm still fairly confident it's the boiler, the power
*only*
trips when the boiler is running. Initially I did think it was the CH pump
but since turning off the CH, it still happens, just less often. No CH
thermostat BTW, just the internal boiler one!

You haven't mentioned the hot water pump being a candidate?

Is it possible to get a sort of multiple RCD that I wire the boiler into,
and the pumps and each is monitored and rather than trips, displays a
count?
Would be very useful!

Possibly but I get the impression it might cost more for such a one time use
device than it would cost to get someone in who can find and fix the
problem.
BTW where are you in the country?

"John" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" . wrote in message ...


SNIP





Thanks for the comprehensive reply!

Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to test for earth leakage.
Presumably I use a "megger" to test for that? Can they be bought
cheaply?

Yes and reasonably so but if you don't know how to use one correctly it
may
damage more than help.

That's me out then, I do have a degree in electronic engineering, but they
don't teach this kind of stuff - maybe electrical engineering would have
covered it.



Regarding the two pumps, we have a strange setup: the boiler has two
flows
and two returns and you're supposed to just use one pair, however, when
the
boiler was plumbed in (about 20 years ago) they used both pairs, one
pump
per pair, and activate one pump for CH and the other for HW, or both for
both CH and HW! I'm still fairly confident it's the boiler, the power
*only*
trips when the boiler is running. Initially I did think it was the CH
pump
but since turning off the CH, it still happens, just less often. No CH
thermostat BTW, just the internal boiler one!

You haven't mentioned the hot water pump being a candidate?

I've been in touch with the pump manufacturers and they were insistent that
the failure mode of the pumps would be different. And the fact that the
problem occurs more when the CH is on would mean both pumps have problems...
which occurring at the same time would be rather unusual.


Is it possible to get a sort of multiple RCD that I wire the boiler
into,
and the pumps and each is monitored and rather than trips, displays a
count?
Would be very useful!

Possibly but I get the impression it might cost more for such a one time
use
device than it would cost to get someone in who can find and fix the
problem.
BTW where are you in the country?



Near High Wycombe in South Bucks.