I wondered if anyone had any advice to offer before we make a final
decision.. We are converting a steading (Scottish for barn !! ) into a
house. We have already decided to have geothermal heating running an
underfloor heating system. Whilst looking at some of the leaflets we
have acquired, one company recommends using a manifold similar to the
UFH one and running all the taps etc off individual flexible plastic
pipes. We can see the sense in this as it makes it easy to isolate one
particular outlet and using flexible pipe means there will be few if any
joints. But... we have been told horror stories of mice nibbling the
said piping inside the wall cavities. Since it is almost inevitable we
will have mice I wondered how great the risk was and if anyone had
experienced it.
Thanks in advance if anyone can help
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
I wondered if anyone had any advice to offer before we make a final
decision.. We are converting a steading (Scottish for barn !! ) into a
house. We have already decided to have geothermal heating running an
underfloor heating system. Whilst looking at some of the leaflets we
have acquired, one company recommends using a manifold similar to the
UFH one and running all the taps etc off individual flexible plastic
pipes. We can see the sense in this as it makes it easy to isolate one
particular outlet and using flexible pipe means there will be few if any
joints. But... we have been told horror stories of mice nibbling the
said piping inside the wall cavities. Since it is almost inevitable we
will have mice I wondered how great the risk was and if anyone had
experienced it.

Well we have 100% plastic pipe (water is so acidic copper pipe dissolves in
5-10 years) and regualr mice intrusions. There's lots of things they'd
rather chew - Rockwool appears to be a favourite - so if you wrap the pipes
in Rockwool they'll go for that first.

If you're really worried you could coat the pipe (but not the joints) in
something like that non-drying anti-burglar paint but I doubt if it's
required.

What heatpump are you using ? Looked at this a while back but even with
subsidies the payback wasn't there.

In message , Mike
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
I wondered if anyone had any advice to offer before we make a final
decision.. We are converting a steading (Scottish for barn !! ) into a
house. We have already decided to have geothermal heating running an
underfloor heating system. Whilst looking at some of the leaflets we
have acquired, one company recommends using a manifold similar to the
UFH one and running all the taps etc off individual flexible plastic
pipes. We can see the sense in this as it makes it easy to isolate one
particular outlet and using flexible pipe means there will be few if any
joints. But... we have been told horror stories of mice nibbling the
said piping inside the wall cavities. Since it is almost inevitable we
will have mice I wondered how great the risk was and if anyone had
experienced it.

Well we have 100% plastic pipe (water is so acidic copper pipe dissolves in
5-10 years) and regualr mice intrusions. There's lots of things they'd
rather chew - Rockwool appears to be a favourite - so if you wrap the pipes
in Rockwool they'll go for that first.

If you're really worried you could coat the pipe (but not the joints) in
something like that non-drying anti-burglar paint but I doubt if it's
required.

What heatpump are you using ? Looked at this a while back but even with
subsidies the payback wasn't there.


We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000. We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...



We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000.

Similar quote to us then.


We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.

A windmill does change the equation if you can get about 3kW of free
electricity out of it when you want. Our national park doesn't like
windmills so we started looking at a hydroelectric generator to do the same
thing but it just got more and more complicated getting the permits so
eventually we went for oil.

But we would love to go self-sufficient one day.

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000.

Similar quote to us then.

We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.

A windmill does change the equation if you can get about 3kW of free
electricity out of it when you want. Our national park doesn't like
windmills so we started looking at a hydroelectric generator to do the
same
thing but it just got more and more complicated getting the permits so
eventually we went for oil.

But we would love to go self-sufficient one day.

When using a windmill you must use a largish thermal store or heat bank.
This is to store heat for when the windmill is not turning. You want to
store as much heat as possible and not waste free energy. The windmill just
heats an immersion in the heat bank. Preferably have, "very" low
temperature underfloor heating, so, that when not fully turning the heating
may operate properly on low temperature water.

A windmill is preferable in a windy location, as they perform just as well
in summer as in winter. Heat pumps underperform in winter, at time hardly
capable of producing DHW hot enough.



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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000.

Similar quote to us then.

We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.

A windmill does change the equation if you can get about 3kW of free
electricity out of it when you want. Our national park doesn't like
windmills so we started looking at a hydroelectric generator to do the
same
thing but it just got more and more complicated getting the permits so
eventually we went for oil.

But we would love to go self-sufficient one day.

When using a windmill you must use a largish thermal store or heat bank.
This is to store heat for when the windmill is not turning. You want to
store as much heat as possible and not waste free energy. The windmill
just
heats an immersion in the heat bank. Preferably have, "very" low
temperature underfloor heating, so, that when not fully turning the
heating
may operate properly on low temperature water.

A windmill is preferable in a windy location, as they perform just as well
in summer as in winter. Heat pumps underperform in winter, at time hardly
capable of producing DHW hot enough.

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.


_________________________________________
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More than 120,000 groups
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http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

In message , Mike
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...



We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000.

Similar quote to us then.


We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.

A windmill does change the equation if you can get about 3kW of free
electricity out of it when you want. Our national park doesn't like
windmills so we started looking at a hydroelectric generator to do the same
thing but it just got more and more complicated getting the permits so
eventually we went for oil.

But we would love to go self-sufficient one day.



These are the windmills we were looking at. Not much larger than a
satellite dish. There was a big publicity thing when one of the members
of the Scottish parliament got one fitted to his house (Don't know who -
don't do politics !! )
http://www.windsave.com/index.htm
--
Sue Begg

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

Doctor Evil wrote:

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.

You can't get a windmill for £1k that outputs 3kW. You'd be looking at
around £30k, and it would be very tall indeed. You'd also need a very
large bank of batteries.


--
Grunff

Grunff wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.


You can't get a windmill for £1k that outputs 3kW. You'd be looking at
around £30k, and it would be very tall indeed. You'd also need a very
large bank of batteries.

And, even if you could, a turbine is rated at its nominal maximum. A 1kW
turbine will produce only 300W on average. Once the batteries are
charged then any power generated is dumped (though you can use this dump
in a reasonably configured system). In our high wind area we effectively
get about 10% of the rated capacity out of our turbine. A lot of the
time it just turns itself off because it has nowhere to put the energy.

Doubling the number of turbines without considering how you are going to
use them is a false economy.

Colin

"Colin Blackburn" wrote in message
...
Grunff wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.


You can't get a windmill for £1k that outputs 3kW. You'd be looking at
around £30k, and it would be very tall indeed. You'd also need a very
large bank of batteries.

And, even if you could, a turbine is rated at its nominal maximum. A 1kW
turbine will produce only 300W on average. Once the batteries are
charged then any power generated is dumped (though you can use this dump
in a reasonably configured system). In our high wind area we effectively
get about 10% of the rated capacity out of our turbine. A lot of the
time it just turns itself off because it has nowhere to put the energy.

Doubling the number of turbines without considering how you are going to
use them is a false economy.

But could work out cheaper depending on how you use them. You also
redundancy, which in an isolated location is desirable. Best not to have
batteries. At the mo', expensive and don't last long - although battery
technology is coming on brilliantly.

Couple the windmill directly to the immersion of a thermal store, then all
the wind energy is transformed to heat energy, which is stored in the
thermal store. When you use an intermediate battery you loose quite a bit
of energy. Then this is used for low temperature UFH and DHW.

"News" wrote in message
...

"Colin Blackburn" wrote in message
...
Grunff wrote:
Doctor Evil wrote:

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on
two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.


You can't get a windmill for £1k that outputs 3kW. You'd be looking at
around £30k, and it would be very tall indeed. You'd also need a very
large bank of batteries.

And, even if you could, a turbine is rated at its nominal maximum. A 1kW
turbine will produce only 300W on average. Once the batteries are
charged then any power generated is dumped (though you can use this dump
in a reasonably configured system). In our high wind area we effectively
get about 10% of the rated capacity out of our turbine. A lot of the
time it just turns itself off because it has nowhere to put the energy.

Doubling the number of turbines without considering how you are going to
use them is a false economy.

But could work out cheaper depending on how you use them. You also
redundancy, which in an isolated location is desirable. Best not to have
batteries. At the mo', expensive and don't last long - although battery
technology is coming on brilliantly.

Couple the windmill directly to the immersion of a thermal store, then all
the wind energy is transformed to heat energy, which is stored in the
thermal store. When you use an intermediate battery you loose quite a bit
of energy. Then this is used for low temperature UFH and DHW.

Go to alt.energy.homepower. There are lots of knowledgeable people there on
windmills.

News wrote:
I wrote:
Doubling the number of turbines without considering how you are going to
use them is a false economy.


But could work out cheaper depending on how you use them.

I didn't say it couldn't be.

You also
redundancy, which in an isolated location is desirable.

Redundancy comes at a price if it isn't needed. Our redundancy is having
the fall back of two diesel generators and some solar PV panels.
Redundancy needn't mean unnecessary duplication. Wind turbines need
masts, planning permission, building mount points, charge
controllers,...duplicating all this isn't straightforward. Also, the
chances are if a storm is powerful enough to damage one turbine there's
a good chance it will damage both.

Best not to have
batteries. At the mo', expensive and don't last long - although battery
technology is coming on brilliantly.

If you are in an isolated location and you are using the turbine for
electricity as well as heat then you need batteries (or some sort of
pumped water storage system.) Yes batteries are expensive but used
correctly they'll last 10 years or more

Couple the windmill directly to the immersion of a thermal store, then all
the wind energy is transformed to heat energy, which is stored in the
thermal store.

Yes, but when the thermal store hits its max the turbines are then doing
nothing. That was my initial point. Having two turbines heat the water
twice as quickly is of no use if you don't use the heat quickly. A
second system such as direct solar water heating would make more sense here.

When you use an intermediate battery you loose quite a bit
of energy. Then this is used for low temperature UFH and DHW.

You lose energy in all processes. It's managing energy use and loss that
makes the difference.

Colin

"Colin Blackburn" wrote in message
...
News wrote:
I wrote:
Doubling the number of turbines without considering how you are going to
use them is a false economy.


But could work out cheaper depending on how you use them.

I didn't say it couldn't be.

You also
redundancy, which in an isolated location is desirable.

Redundancy comes at a price if it isn't needed. Our redundancy is having
the fall back of two diesel generators and some solar PV panels.
Redundancy needn't mean unnecessary duplication. Wind turbines need
masts, planning permission, building mount points, charge
controllers,...duplicating all this isn't straightforward. Also, the
chances are if a storm is powerful enough to damage one turbine there's
a good chance it will damage both.

Best not to have
batteries. At the mo', expensive and don't last long - although battery
technology is coming on brilliantly.

If you are in an isolated location and you are using the turbine for
electricity as well as heat then you need batteries (or some sort of
pumped water storage system.) Yes batteries are expensive but used
correctly they'll last 10 years or more

Couple the windmill directly to the immersion of a thermal store, then
all
the wind energy is transformed to heat energy, which is stored in the
thermal store.

Yes, but when the thermal store hits its max the turbines are then doing
nothing. That was my initial point.

You size the thermal store to suit. Large enough so a windmill would not
full heat it. The maxium heat store temeperaure copul be 90 degree C. That
will take a lot of wind to heat up a large thermal store. Even over summer I
doubt if a widnmill would full charge a correctly sized thermal store A
windmill giving 1kW will take a time to heat a large thermal store. With
stored water the hot water rises to the top. This means you always have a
tap of hot water from the top and lots of cold water below for storage. A
thermal store may have solar panels heating it.

Having two turbines heat the water
twice as quickly is of no use if you don't use the heat quickly.

You store the heat. A 1kW turbine is really not that big.

A second system such as direct solar water heating would make more sense
here.


The windmill works in winter as well, while solar panels may be ineffective
for days on end in winter and only work for a few hours on sunny winter
days.

When you use an intermediate battery you loose quite a bit
of energy. Then this is used for low temperature UFH and DHW.

You lose energy in all processes. It's managing energy use and loss that
makes the difference.

You loose far more with an intermediate battery between the generator and
the element, than using a directly heated thermal store.


Colin

News wrote:


You loose far more with an intermediate battery between the generator and
the element, than using a directly heated thermal store.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about a system
that provided electricity not just heat.

Colin

Colin Blackburn wrote:
News wrote:


You loose far more with an intermediate battery between the generator and
the element, than using a directly heated thermal store.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about a system
that provided electricity not just heat.


I think News was addressing your comment that it turns itself off as it
has nowhere to put the power.
Heating a thermal store of 1m^3 takes about 1Kwh per C.
Going from 40C (UFH temps) to 95C would absorb some 4 days continuous
output.
And it's relatively easy to make larger thermal stores.

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
Colin Blackburn wrote:
News wrote:


You loose far more with an intermediate battery between the generator and
the element, than using a directly heated thermal store.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that I was talking about a system
that provided electricity not just heat.


I think News was addressing your comment that it turns itself off as it
has nowhere to put the power.
Heating a thermal store of 1m^3 takes about 1Kwh per C.
Going from 40C (UFH temps) to 95C would absorb some 4 days continuous
output.
And it's relatively easy to make larger thermal stores.

What we had been initially thinking of was a geothermal system with the
windmill to help drive the pump running the geothermal. The windmill
that was recommended plugs into the household mains and feeds any excess
back into the grid. (I can't see there being much excess !! )
We had solar panels on the old house for 25 years but the amount of heat
this house will need. Geothermal seemed the way to go.

But back to my original question :-)
Has anyone any experience of mice chewing flexible plastic piping?

The underfloor heating company have a system where all the taps etc have
their own outlet on a manifold and so there are few joins. But we have
been told that mice might be a problem
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

What we had been initially thinking of
was a geothermal system with the
windmill to help drive the pump running
the geothermal. The windmill
that was recommended plugs into the
household mains and feeds any excess
back into the grid. (I can't see there being
much excess !! )
We had solar panels on the old house
for 25 years but the amount of heat
this house will need. Geothermal seemed
the way to go.

A whole full solar roof is far different from a panel or two and may cost
less than the 8k for a geothermal heat pump, which you have to pay to run. A
solar roof is just the cost of running a pump. A windmill to give 3kW
output to run the heat pump will be not be cheap either. At best a heat
pump can compete with a natural gas boiler in running costs. You may, if
lucky, drop the running cost by 1/3 by using the windmill. Still overall an
expensive setup using a windmill/heat pump.

A heat pump may have a COP of say 3. That is for every kW you use it outputs
3kW. But in winter you will freeze, or make the ground very cold, so less
heat is available to pump into the house. Then the COP drops. When the
ground gets very cold around the bore pipe, the heat pump may not be capable
of raising the water to DHW temperatures. For example, a heat pump with a
COP of 4 takes 1 unit of electrical energy and pulls 3 units of heat energy
from the ground, water, etc, to supply 4 units of heat energy where needed.
If the heat pump cannot pull the heat energy from somewhere, the COP drops
back to 1.

Then expensive to run electric immersions have to be used, as well aslso
with a COP of 1.

This thread has thrown up alternatives and appear to be more economical
options:

1. A full solar roof heating a thermal store that provides UFH and DHW. You
may need a backup immersion in the thermal store for cloudy days.

2. A directly connected windmill constantly heating a large thermal store.
There again some backup heating on windless days, but the thermal store
sized large enough may hold enough energy to keep the house warm enough
until the wind picks up. An immersion may be required for the hotter DHW.

If I was you I would reassess your proposed heating system.

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"Doctor Evil" wrote in message
...

We've got a quote from Geothermal Scotland of £8000 so with grant it
will be about 5000.

Similar quote to us then.

We are then thinking of looking at the domestic
windmill which are just short of a grand (and there is a subsidy on
them as well ) the windmill will provide more than enough electric
to
drive the pump so costs after that point should be negligible.

A windmill does change the equation if you can get about 3kW of free
electricity out of it when you want. Our national park doesn't like
windmills so we started looking at a hydroelectric generator to do the
same
thing but it just got more and more complicated getting the permits so
eventually we went for oil.

But we would love to go self-sufficient one day.

When using a windmill you must use a largish thermal store or heat bank.
This is to store heat for when the windmill is not turning. You want to
store as much heat as possible and not waste free energy. The windmill
just
heats an immersion in the heat bank. Preferably have, "very" low
temperature underfloor heating, so, that when not fully turning the
heating
may operate properly on low temperature water.

A windmill is preferable in a windy location, as they perform just as
well
in summer as in winter. Heat pumps underperform in winter, at time
hardly
capable of producing DHW hot enough.

Also at 1K per windmill and 8K for a heat pump. Try spending 2K on two
windmills. Then 6kW instead of 3kW.


Sounds reasonable advice except I'm not allowed windmills where I am.

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

But back to my original question :-)
Has anyone any experience of mice chewing flexible plastic piping?

We've got miles of plastic pipe. And regular mice intrusions. But they
prefer Rockwool. So wrap the pipe in Rockwool (which helps insulation) and
you'll be fine.

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
These are the windmills we were looking at. Not much larger than a
satellite dish. There was a big publicity thing when one of the members
of the Scottish parliament got one fitted to his house (Don't know who -
don't do politics !! )
http://www.windsave.com/index.htm

I've e-mailed them several times in the past. I'd love to borrow a unit and
take it into the Peak Park office to show them it but never get a response
from Windsave. Presumably they are concentrating on the local market.